2long's thread has prompted me to post this. (It would also be a good theme for a novel, but not today.) Is a great and successful man/woman still great and successful if they are also cheaters in their marraiges?

Here's a short list of people who accomplished great things in their working lives, and who are largely respected and admired by many, but who also put their families through the hell of affairs. Are these people still admirable? Were they ever?

Do their work accomplishments in the larger world outweigh and excuse the torment and suffering they caused their families and their OP's families? (So far, the answer has always been "yes.)

Feel free to add to the list:

Bill Clinton
Franklin D. Roosevelt
Spencer Tracy
Clark Gable
Carl Sagan
Jesse Jackson (has an OC)
Martin Luther King
Ray Charles
Oprah Winfrey (was once an OW)
Katherine Hepburn (Spencer Tracy's OW for many, many years)

Before I was aware of the impact of an A, I never thought much of it. I was never aware of the pain that this could cause a person. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

At this point I have lost all respect for any person who indulges in this act. I can still respect an acomplishment, yet the person I have no respect for at all. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

God forgives, and he wants his children to also. If the person has repented and is truly sorry and changing their ways, then yes, I do feel they can be admired again.

There are so many that want people to carry around their sin in shame, wouldn't we all have very strong backs if this were the case.

Sad question.

"Feel free to add to the list:"

My W.

-ol' 2long

Al said, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> At this point I have lost all respect for any person who indulges in this act. I can still respect an acomplishment, yet the person I have no respect for at all.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Al, would this be past and present indulgence, or just present time????? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

To add to KY's concern, are you talking repentant or nonrepentant, or both?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Do their work accomplishments in the larger world outweigh and excuse the torment and suffering they caused their families and their OP's families? (So far, the answer has always been "yes.)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is not the question that is usually asked when evaluating the work of a persons life.
If this is the criterion you choose to evaluate these people's life accomplishments by, then I could certainly see how one could easily answer no.

As a FWS, I would hope that my entire life would not be summed up by my period of waywardness. If someone chooses to do that, I can do nothing about it.

But there is far more to my life than that 1 year.

I raised beautiful children. I was a good husband for far more years than I wasn't. I have contributed to my community.

How you see me is really irrelevant. How I see myself is what is important. I have loved and been loved. I have overcome adversity.

I see myself as a successful man

Low

Past and present.

I will respect the act of finding a cure for cancer, yet if the person who does this is an adulter (sp) I will have no respect for them. I can forgive any one anything, yet right now today, I have lost all respect for a person who thinks nothing of what pain thier actions cause others.

I will respect the work, not the person. That is how I feel right now.

I have lost respect for my WW right now. Her actions hurt and she does not care.

Ky

Perhaps I should not chime in on this. Last night I was with my WW and I saw her as my W. When I see her that way I have all the love and respect for her in the world.

I think perhaps my mind is mush right now and I should think hard before I type.

Mulan - I did not know that Sagan was as you described. Assuming you are correct, I have lost some respect for him as a person, but not as a scientist.

Let me answer your question this way: I admire quite a few athletes for their ability to play their game, but off the court or field, they are failures as human beings to me. I can compartmentalize their accomplishes and failures.

Enter Rudy Guilani, Julia Roberts, Lance Armstrong, etc., etc., etc., and my XW and my ex-friend (OM).

That said, I believe I might have greater admiration for someone who has strayed, however so, yet recovers and denounces their prior behavior - like the FWSs who post on this forum.

WAT

Maybe I should have made this clearer: I was talking about those who seem to feel that the good they have done in the larger world outweighs their teensy little indiscretions in their "private lives." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Bill Clinton never seemed to understand why people didn't just look the other way since he was also a two-term U.S. President.

Jesse Jackson does not seem to realize what a gigantic hypocrite he is in his actions.

Spencer Tracy and Katherine Hepburn had very successful Hollywood careers, so who should care if Tracy's wife had to go through hell every day?

Someone who screwed up, is truly sorry and has changed their ways is a different story. The people who insist that their public accomplishments (famous or not) should outweigh their "private" indiscretions are the ones I'm talking about.

I submit that even when talking about someone as widely admired as Martin Luther King, it should be pointed out that he was only admirable in his public life. His private life, from several accounts, was anything but admirable. The message is therefore, "We don't care how people behave with their families as long as they do good things in public. Nobody cares. You can get away with all you want in private so long as you are good in public."

But we can't figure out why affairs are positively thriving in our culture, and why kids grow up with the idea that a two-tiered life is perfectly normal and healthy.
Mulan

***I admire quite a few athletes for their ability to play their game, but off the court or field, they are failures as human beings to me. I can compartmentalize their accomplishes and failures.***

So can they. Don't you think that's precisely where the problem lies? Why should the rest of continue to support this compartmentalization then that's what allowed the cheating in the first place?

Mulan >Not afraid of the tough questions anymore.

***I admire quite a few athletes for their ability to play their game, but off the court or field, they are failures as human beings to me. I can compartmentalize their accomplishes and failures.***

So can they. Don't you think that's precisely where the problem lies? Why should the rest of us continue to support this compartmentalization when that's what allowed the cheating in the first place?

Mulan >Not afraid of the tough questions anymore.

Just because I can admire one aspect of their accomplishments doesn't mean I let them off the hook over all.

I will not, cannot, vote for Rudy (if I ever get the chance) for the reasons you state.

WAT
------------
Not afraid of tough questions.

Mulan, answer to your question is: of course! I recently went to the Albert Einstein exhibit (it was wonderful) and was floored to learn of his womanizing. I hardly doubt that anyone would define this man's life on that criterion.

If you chose to define YOUR life by an affair (either yours or your spouse's) and/or the negative effects of one, then the answer to your question would be no. You also would not truly be recovered so it is a better question to ask what you are going to do to define yourself from here on out. KB

Hi guys,

I usually don't, but I will...

From a Christian perpective, we are all sinners. Now whether you want to call one "sin" (of if you don't like that word, failure) worse than another well it has to be on the basis of how it affects other people. For example, if somebody steals a few pencils from the supply cabinet to give to their kids, it's a "sin" or a failure, but it does a lot less damage than some other thing he might do.

Still, it is a failure - a "sin" - and that brings us up to the fact that...

(I'm not trying to convert anybody here, so if this annoys you non-christians, just skip on over it, OK?)

... we are all forgiven - and as the beneficiaries of God's mercy are called upon to be merciful to others.

But... mercy and forgivness are dependent upon contrition and "turning away" from the path of error.

So... where does that leave us.

I suspect that all of us have done things that hurt somebody - and may or may not have been properly contrite about it at any time - possibly because we were insensitive to the harm that we caused. Does that make us throw-away people.

I hope not.

-AD

and you can add JFK to the list.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Does that make us throw-away people.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I guess it does, look at these post.

WAT - Had Rudy, left his mistress, and successfully recovered his M, and became a fidelity advocate, would you vote for him then?

I don't believe any of us, who have been affected by infidelity will have personal respect for any person who is still in the act, or has not repented and changed their ways.

This has been a learning experience for me, and I can tell you, I am a much more respectable person after my A, then the person I was before my A. I have grown, I have corrected many character flaws

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by kyellow4:
<strong>WAT - Had Rudy, left his mistress, and successfully recovered his M, and became a fidelity advocate, would you vote for him then?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe. But my decision to do so could then be based on my conclusion regarding his ability to fulfill the responsibilities of the office, from my perspective, knowing he had some integrity. In sum, lack of integrity trumps any positive ability for me.

WAT

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Bill Clinton never seemed to understand why people didn't just look the other way since he was also a two-term U.S. President.

Jesse Jackson does not seem to realize what a gigantic hypocrite he is in his actions.

Spencer Tracy and Katherine Hepburn had very successful Hollywood careers, so who should care if Tracy's wife had to go through hell every day?

Someone who screwed up, is truly sorry and has changed their ways is a different story. The people who insist that their public accomplishments (famous or not) should outweigh their "private" indiscretions are the ones I'm talking about.

I submit that even when talking about someone as widely admired as Martin Luther King, it should be pointed out that he was only admirable in his public life. His private life, from several accounts, was anything but admirable. The message is therefore, "We don't care how people behave with their families as long as they do good things in public. Nobody cares. You can get away with all you want in private so long as you are good in public."

But we can't figure out why affairs are positively thriving in our culture, and why kids grow up with the idea that a two-tiered life is perfectly normal and healthy.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you were to read the news account of my affair, it would simply read that I had an affair for a certain period of time.

Do you think the media is going to report with equal diligence when someone repents and recovers?

How do you know that these people did not, at some point, make amends and turn their life around? You don't.

As far as I saw, Clinton was embarrassed and apologetic. He did regret what he did. I'd like to think he's working on repairing his marriage, but we won't know because marriage repair isn't newsworthy.

As far as Jessie Jackson being a hypocrite...if I let people who said things like that beat me down, I would've withdrawn from any involvement with my church and community...after all, what business does someone like me have trying to worship God and raise kids?

No, he's not a hypocrite. He's someone who's trying to do what he believes is the right thing from this moment forward. He has an opportunity to deal with his OC with responsibility and integrity. I'm rooting for his success.

I think where your line of thinking will ultimately lead is that you will choose to discount the accomplishments and contributions of about half the world becasue they chose to stray at some point.

Where will it end? Do we discount the lives of anyone who has ever done something wrong?

This is a hopeless path...

Low

<small>[ January 20, 2005, 03:26 PM: Message edited by: LowOrbit ]</small>

I have a 17-year-old son. He thinks people like Donald Trump and Jack Walsh (former CEO of GE) are terrific role models because of all the money they've made. These men have written books on how to be successful and are held up as role models by many, many people -- yet they have virtually nothing but wreckage in their personal lives. Walsh's wife got so tired of his cheating that she finally got a divorce and took half of his huge fortune, and Trump trades in his wife for a younger model every few years.

But they are still admired because of their very successful personal lives while the pain and destruction they cause in private is ignored. This is what bothers me. I do not want my son looking up to people like this. Do you want your kids looking up to them and wanting to be just like them?
Mulan