I guess the use of the word "idiot" is used to describe the silliness then? In my opinion, idiot is used because we all do stupid things in life and you just have to laugh at it sometimes or go crazy. No offense taken, Committed. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess the use of the word "idiot" is used to describe the silliness then?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You got it! We are all Idiots! Some more, than others! This A stuff is serious--none of us take it lightly. None of us. But it (I-ville) is a "safety zone." We all venture outside, but you can see by this thread, as Bob pointed out, why we are always gravitating back to I-ville. It's not that we can't discuss or face it--the A--but it gets tiresome getting walloped with 2x4's. Sometimes, it may be "guilt by association" (again referring to I-ville.)

Originally posted by TooSoon:

There is something within you that feels the need to be on these boards, as I do. I too share information to try and help others get through their difficult time, but it helps me too. I suspect the people that spend hundreds of hours a month on these boards feel the same way. The people on these boards understand the BS's and the WS's and that is why we are all here.

If there is another reason, I would love for you to share it.

I suppose another reason would be based on the relationships that we have with one another. Idiotville is an example of how posters support each other without labels, but simply as human beings. I've never actually spent much time reading there but I do get the impression that they watch each other's backs ala Bob supporting Jelly just now in this thread.

Sometimes there are those who feel the need to take joy out of someone else's conclusions with warnings and negativity but we all speak from our own experiences and that is the real beauty of the board. Sometimes it's helpful and sometimes it's not...either way there are a wealth of thoughts to choose from. It is my belief that Jelly's epiphany is something all FBSs and FWS's should strive for and she should be supported.

My primary reason for staying on is that I've developed friendships with others on this board that have even moved outside of this forum. Our conversations are not just about A's and recovery but about LIFE and living. I've enjoyed this very much and it's a nice addition to the day to day relationships I have in real life. There are also a number of posters whom I respect and I simply enjoy reading what they have to say. There are some phenomenal people on this board! I also look out for old posters who pop in and out over time.

I guess that for me, it simply boils down to valuing the relationships I have on the board. I don't have a "need" to be here so to speak, it is a free choice not based on an experience that is long over and one that does not impact my marriage negatively today. I had my own personal epiphany a long time ago and I'm thrilled that Jelly has had hers. Does this make sense? KB

KY - I was trying to think of what I could say to you in response to this thread .... I think I have it .... Thank you!!!!!

I would like to rattle off all the "former" things I was - however this forum is not big enough and they don't say who I am today either. I have regrets and have forgiven myself for most of them.

I find it funny how many people have refered to being an alcoholic or drug addict as that of the "FWS". Well, AA, NA, GA or any "A" have a creed and all follow the "Serenity Prayer"

Here goes:

"God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; The courage to change the things I can; And the wisdom to know the difference."

I think KY has seen the difference and has had the courage to change it and accept it.

Does this make sense? KB Absolutely! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Wow Jelly, I notice all the nice replies came first. Just shows what a mixed up, diverse, eclectic array of people visit MB. Just like life, it takes all sorts to make the world go round. Now, back to hamsters .... TT

I'm a sinner. I'll always be a sinner. But by the grace of God and the blood of Jesus Christ, I'm forgiven...

I choose to forgive my W.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Fishracer:
<strong>There is an undisputable fact of life that can never be altered: If we "do" an action, any action, then it is absolute fact that we have the capability to do the same action again!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sorry about what happened to you Fishracer. OW in my case did the same - also with 15 years apart, in spite of "I'll never do that again" etc.

But I think we are ALL able to cheat, lie, kill, hurt, steal.. if and when the circumstances are "right" (or should we say, "wrong") enough and trigger us into an action we will deeply regret afterwards. We're human, we have our instincts of survival and reproduction to deal with, we need to do whatever we can to protect ourselves from our weaknesses to prevent mistakes from happening. No matter if we "have done it before" or "never did it before". Some will be inclined to do it "again" because they "did it before" - others will never do it again exactly because they "did it before".

I just wanted to throw in my disagreement about some of the analogies of alcoholics...

and this is just to disagree with some of that premise....and NOT to say that those opinions aren't valid....

while we can liken the responses of an affair to those as an addict...they are not genetically the same....

fishracer said...

This is why everyone participating in AA announces to all that they are an alcoholic! They may not have touched a drop in 30 years; but they still announce that they are an alcoholic!


The reason for this is simple. Our mind is programmed to lessen the severity of behavior as time passes. That is the very premise that MB philosophy is built on. (Stay together with WS after the A; NC w/OP forever and allow time and action to "heal and make better".)



I would say that the reason for this is because they have pretty much proven that alcoholics have within them either genectically or chemically experience some type of reaction to a substance that is introduced in to their system...that there is an actual interaction on a cellular level...

thus why some can drink and never have a problem...
and some can drink and have a problem....
and the family hereditary link as well..

the label of once an alcholic always an alcoholic rings true based on the fact of the chemical interaction .....

while the emotional/chemical releases of an affair...
the dopamine receptor and release factor...etc can create feelings of euphoria like alchohol to some people..

people who say they are alcoholics do not do this to minimize their actions they do this to keep in formind their inability to chemically as well as responsibly handle a chemical stubstance....it doesn't lesson any behavior...it acknowledges their own incapability of injesting such substances.....

We are all capable of bad behavior....

Affairs in and of themselves have not been proven to be an addiction....

though the behaviors may mirror or mimic an addicted person..as the chemical reaction...we also know that things other than an affair can and sometimes do release the chemical reaction.......they are not equal
some people have affairs with their careers
or with a hobby
with exercise
and the behaviors are the same as a person having an affair...and can be just as destructive to a family unit.....


once an alcoholic ...always an alcohlic is true no matter how you slice it..

once a cheater always a cheater....ain't necessarily so....

if people here don't beleive in the ability to change then we all may as well hang it up...

also remember that true AA participants use a twelve step program which include factors that do not apply to affairs at all...

one being that they are powerless over the effects of alcohol....while people in affairs are not chemically/genetically powerless at all....

AA participants use this twelve step to really process their past actions...change their present actions.....
people in AA acknowledge sobriety as only a part of the AA program....

fishracer also said....

That is the very premise that MB philosophy is built on. (Stay together with WS after the A; NC w/OP forever and allow time and action to "heal and make better".)

I also don't agree with that....
again it removes the belief that people can change....

it is not a crap shoot of time and just actions....

humans have the ability to process and learn...

there are people that get involved in affairs and even while in it are litterally horrified by their actions and choices....

there are people in affairs that truly process their behaviors post affair and are horrified by their actions and choices...and can and do make decisions to never be that person again....

ALSO while this site promotes no contact for very good reasons;....due to the triggers and pain...this is not to be misunderstood with seeing an former OP instantly causes a chemical reaction of love lust emotions or whatever...

this is true based on the fact that most of us have in our past someone that we once perhaps were 'in love with'..first loves....former partners etc...prior to marriage...seeing these people out in public...or even those that we are still friends with...does not cause some uncontrollable chemical reaction that we see them and are instantly in love with them...
but let an alcoholic take just a drink...and chemically they are right back where they started pre-soberness....

while I am not advocating contact with former OP....the reason for no contact is NOT based on addictive traits...it is based on the fact there is no positive purpose for contact...
contact only causes pain...

If you are with a WS who does not...or can not see their actions as the destruction they are or were...then you really aren't with someone who is recovered.....

ARK

Thank you so much for that Ark.

I too disagree strongly with the alcoholic/affair analolgy. I stopped arguing the point on here because it was too frustrating for me.

Alcoholism is a complex primary physilogical disease which is pre-determined genetically.

To liken it to a person having an affair does a great diservice to the people who are inflicted with this devastating disease and to their families. It is counter-productive to understanding this most misunderstood disease.

Jelly,

Excellent topic. And great advice for me. I don't have a FWS anymore. I have SuperDad, a loving husband, a proud member of our armed forces, the man who makes me laugh, and the great crepes chef.

I don't know if I'd have really gotten your post two years ago, though. Back then, that was such a defining issue in my life.

Dobie

there are people that get involved in affairs and even while in it are litterally horrified by their actions and choices.... Yes, I was there and why I chose to end the A.there are people in affairs that truly process their behaviors post affair and are horrified by their actions and choices...and can and do make decisions to never be that person again.... Again, thank you Ark I can relate to this. My A was over more than 7 years ago. Even through my H's two A's and a miserable period in our M for over 3 years I would not consider having another A. I do not want to be that person ever again. I know my boundaries and I will not cross them and I am always painfully aware of them.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If you are with a WS who does not...or can not see their actions as the destruction they are or were...then you really aren't with someone who is recovered.....
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I might suggest that if the above quote from ARK is ever forgotten by a WS, Recovered Spouse, Offending Spouse (or any name, title or reference of your choice), if it is every forgotten, then the marriage is at risk.

Those that forget history are destined to repeat it.
(Philosopher, poet, literary and cultural critic, George Santayana)

We use our life experiences as lessons in our quest for self enlightenment and self possession. Nothing is truer then the lessons learned from living through the experience and recovery from an affair, BS and WS included. Most here have gained an awareness that previously was not there. Most here understand things about marriage, commitment, love and betrayal that far exceed the common man on the street and most understand the importance of these things.

Rejoice in your recovery and celebrate every day, so many here have so much to be grateful for and I am so happy to be one of those people. With that said, I hope I NEVER lose sight of the lessons I’ve learned from the single most traumatic event that I have experienced in my 50 years of life. The title of what someone calls someone else does not change who they are.

Mr. G

4rules

Ark, I think Dr. Harley would disagree with you. Here is an excerpt from the 4 Rules to Recovery page.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Dear R.G.,
My answer to your first question, "did I make the right decision to break up with my lover," is a resounding yes! You have taken the first step toward restoring your love for your husband -- you have completely separated from your lover. As long as you were seeing or communicating with your lover, there was little hope that your feelings for your husband would be revived. But by separating from your lover, you have removed one of the most important obstacles for complete marital recovery -- your lover.

But, as you have already discovered, the first few weeks of separation from a lover are very painful. You are addicted to your lover, and separation from the object of your addiction has triggered symptoms of withdrawal -- a compulsive craving for him with intense feelings of anxiety and depression. However, if you completely avoid seeing or communicating with your lover, those feelings of anxiety and depression will gradually fade. For most people they fade in a few weeks. But even if it takes longer to get through withdrawal, it is absolutely essential to do it if you want to restore your love for your husband.

Remember the Love Bank? If you are to be in love with your husband, he must deposit enough love units into his account in your Love Bank so that it will trigger the feeling of love in you. But since you are depressed while you are getting through withdrawal, it will be almost impossible for him to deposit very many love units. If he is to deposit love units into your Love Bank, you must first get over being depressed so you can associate him with your good feelings.

Once you are through withdrawal, however, you are ready for marital reconciliation because then, and only then, does your husband have a chance to deposit love units. Your mood will improve dramatically, and the effort your husband makes to meet your needs will reap impressive dividends. Before long, you will be in love with him again.

But if you give into your craving before withdrawal has ended, and contact your lover, the period of withdrawal will begin all over again. Those feelings of anxiety and depression will come back with a vengeance. All of your efforts to reconcile with your husband will be wasted, and it will test the limits of your husband's patience. So you must take extraordinary precautions to avoid ever seeing or communicating with him again.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A person (any person) is subject to rekindling an addiction if they do not avoid the source of the addiction FOREVER. That source for a "FWS" is an OP...ANY OP.

jmo

KY, We don't usually talk, I'm not a resident idiot yet. Howvever, I am an idiot, .... just a homeless one.

I am in a different place than you. I can appreciate your feelings.

BUT,
I don't equate what occurred with shoplifting more like rapist, or murderer.

I have always disliked when my STBX made light of her actions like, "we all make mistakes"

This mistake is more than a speeding ticket, more than a forgetting to pay for something at the checkout. It is more than littering.

So, while I do agree whole heartedly that you can move past your actions and your history. You can't change it or rewrite it.

I don't think you should have to wear a Scarlet A. (well not like I did back in June 2004) I know changes can be made. I have seen them in myself. If I want my changes to be accepted, I have to accept yours and others.

However, shoplifting and adultury is not in the same ballpark.

OK I'm ready for the 2x4's
.

BA..

this post is about Former wayward spouses...

But if you give into your craving before withdrawal has ended, and contact your lover, the period of withdrawal will begin all over again.

we are talking here about people post withdrawal full recovery....not still in withdrawal

there are people post withdrawal...in recovery that do see a former OP...come in contact...(NOT contact)...for I am certainly NOT OKing or advocating continued contact....)...but that see or even interact with an former OP and don't feel anything...or feel revulsion...or feel nothing...

BUT an alcoholic taking one drink....is no longer a recovering alcoholic....

and I do agree that behaviors and actions and even chemical brain patterns are LIKE those of addictive traits...but are not synonomous...

there has to be something beyond the recovery stage....

in which I agree contact is dangerous dangerous dangerous...(recovery stage)

ark

TJ
However, shoplifting and adultury is not in the same ballpark.


Show me in scripture where God seperates one sin as being more or les sinful than another ( apart from the mysterious 'sin that cannot be forgiven').

Shoplifting and adultery are different only in how must they hurt you personally.

In teh same way that liberal students think paedophiles need therapy and care while affected parents think they should be burned at the stake.

Infidelity almost killed me but it was a sin and it need to be forgiven if I want any chance of having a good life with my wife.

Any other sins that hurt you personally that you'd like to cite as worse than others here TJ?

If FWS cannot ever be washed clean by God and forgiven by their FBS we may as well reintrodice stoning, as its kinder than making GOOD REPENTANT people live with a millstone around their necks for ever.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> and I do agree that behaviors and actions and even chemical brain patterns are LIKE those of addictive traits...but are not synonomous...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is exactly the attitude of the FWS. "Oh it's not that bad...it's nothing I can't control in the future."

I am not condemning the FWS, I am just saying that if they don't fully accept the A for what it is, they will forever be vulnerable to another. Attempting to strip themselves of the moniker is a way of minimizing it and not dealing with all of the consequences...one of which is that the FWS will always be a FWS.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">there has to be something beyond the recovery stage....
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Extreme caution.

If FWS cannot ever be washed clean by God and forgiven by their FBS we may as well reintrodice stoning, as its kinder than making GOOD REPENTANT people live with a millstone around their necks for ever.

WHY is the title a millstone...it is what it is.

I am getting confused....

Are you equating the use of the term FWS as having not been forgiven?

Just because the term is used is not indicative of not being forgiven....it's indicative of it having not been "forgotten".


They don't travel hand in hand IMHO.

You can forgive without forgetting...and it doesn't mean that it isn't true forgiveness.

It would behoove a BS to remember it...if nothing else than as a way of future protection.

The same can be said about the FWS, it would behoove them to remember it so that they are NOT prone to let it happen again.

If someone is seeking true forgiveness by wanting to drop that label I *feel* that they are simply looking to "forget".

*edit*

Where is Melody Lane when you need her??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

JMHO
committed

<small>[ January 23, 2005, 10:34 AM: Message edited by: committedandlovingit ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Just because the term is used is not indicative of not being forgiven....it's indicative of it having not been "forgotten". </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exactly. We cannot disown our past. It happened. It's a done deal. That does not mean that we are not forgiven.