This is exactly the attitude of the FWS. "Oh it's not that bad...it's nothing I can't control in the future."

what truly recovered fws would ever say that it's not that bad...???

no one can control the future.... everyone can control their own action...

I don't think that is the attitude of former wayward spouse....in true recovery....and those that have done the hard hard work of repair surely deserve to be set free from that person whom they no longer are...

God knows I want that grace extended to me as I try to extend it to others....

former WS should be celebrated.....
they give hope to all of us........

WS have lots of control in their actions....


Attempting to strip themselves of the moniker is a way of minimizing it and not dealing with all of the consequences...one of which is that the FWS will always be a FWS.

at what point is one done dealing with the consequances....
where does that end..?

if we hold them to that moniker forever...then we must hold all and each of to every other moniker out there...that we have worn at different times in our lives..

ARK

committed: the point is a sin is a sin. It is NOT in our power or authority to judge another by the "extremity" of their sin. You either forgive or you don't. It's a simple concept. IMHO, you are confusing "judging" with "sinning."

ba: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is exactly the attitude of the FWS. "Oh it's not that bad...it's nothing I can't control in the future." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Please tell me one FORMER WS who has this attitude. You are making unfair generalizations; and if that is said by a FWS, IMHO, they are a WS becoming a FWS, still in recovery, as ark pointed out.

And as ark pointed out again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> former WS should be celebrated.....
they give hope to all of us........
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">They are. They are awarded the title of "former".

I did not intend to beat a dead horse in this thread. I will agree to disagree.

The problem with the label of FWS is that it cripples most of the FWS here. Keeps them from offering openly their experiences and opinions.

Alot "hide" on idiotville because they are afraid to be who they are on this board, because of what they had done in the past.

And just as sadly it keeps them from seeking help here when they need it.

KYjelly was taking a stand. One where I think she was saying "I am KYjelly, and I have a right to be here! I have something to offer, and I will not be afraid of judgment by others".

KY is brilliant (as are many other FWS's here) and yet I know she holds back. She hides because of her guilt. FWS's on here apologise before they even post. They hold back. It is a dirty rotten shame and a loss for us all.

My skin is thicker, so I post freely. I only explain the title which brought me here when I feel it is of benefit to another.

<small>[ January 23, 2005, 11:02 AM: Message edited by: weaver ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by weaver:
<strong> Alot "hide" on idiotville because they are afraid to be who they are on this board, because of what they had done in the past.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So after being on MB for two years as a BS, you begrudge me a little corner to hang out on that lets me forget about the labels and just laugh at life? I'm with Jelly on this. I'm not an FBS. I'm a person. The BS label is only a tiny fraction of what I am.

committed: the point is a sin is a sin. It is NOT in our power or authority to judge another by the "extremity" of their sin. You either forgive or you don't. It's a simple concept. IMHO, you are confusing "judging" with "sinning."

I don't think that I am "judging". I was under the impression we are discussing this in the broadest sense.

You can forgive WITHOUT forgetting.

I thought this was a thread about using or not using a label.

I should have realized that it was something more personal.

I will refrain from contributing anything else.

committed

CALI, I can see you are hurt here :

The central point is that some FBS want FWS to never lose their "FWS" badge, while other indiscretions need not be remembered in the same way, it appears ( shoplifting etc).

I think this is related to the amount of hurt a given 'sin' has caused us personally. i.e. we feel lenience to reformed Robbers if we have never been robbed, but we have been so dreadfully hurt by FWS that we can never release our wanting them to feel guilty for their commssion.
Liberal students without children think child abysers should be helped while parents think they should be castrated and burned.

Its moral relativism. Understandable. My instinct is to agree BUT I have no hope of a recovered marriage with such an attitude.

I hope at some point in the future to look back at Squids affair as a really crap time in our M that we survived like the deaths of my parents, her father or a time we were in debt.

Recovered 'wise heads' tell me this is possible and I aspire to it with all my heart.

Our FWS DID have affairs with OPs. We can always hate them for it, and that will still have happened. Or we can try to love and forgive them and live a wonderful life and it will still have happened. Which will you choose CALI ?

All bessings

I can't believe the way this post has gone.

All KY was saying that in her personal real world she is completely forgiven by her H and is no longer defined by her A. Her H posts here as well (on I'ville) and I'm sure he'd be flabbergasted at the responses to his wife.

It's also interesting that the people who are having the most successful recoveries on MB are the ones defined by forgiveness.

Jen

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by KiwiJ.:
It's also interesting that the people who are having the most successful recoveries on MB are the ones defined by forgiveness.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is an excellent point and one possibly worthy of it's own thread topic???

Pep

So after being on MB for two years as a BS, you begrudge me a little corner to hang out on that lets me forget about the labels and just laugh at life? I'm with Jelly on this. I'm not an FBS. I'm a person. The BS label is only a tiny fraction of what I am.

Dobie, I think you totally misunderstood my meaning. I once posted frequently on I'ville, more so in the beginning of the thread.

I "begrudge" you nothing.

I applaud KY, because I know that she has refrained from posting openly on this board, and has often taken refuge in I'ville, because it is safe. The problem is that others who could benefit from her insight don't get it.

And the same goes for a few other FWS's on I'ville who are equally as needed and wanted but from their own shame hold back on the board.

Now I don't know how my post came across so offensively to you, it certainly was not my attention. Please go back and reread my posts to KY, as I hope you will see that I agree with her.

But I think Committed has echoed my own feelings that this thread has become way too personal, so I will bow out as well.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Alot "hide" on idiotville because they are afraid to be who they are on this board, because of what they had done in the past.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Conflict avoidance at it's finest Weaver.

Welcome to Marriage Builder's infideliity board.

Posters may be challenged to the point of feeling UNcomfortable sometimes. Defend your current concepts and choices not your past.

It's a good thing to debate important marriage recovery concepts. EVEN to the point of becoming aware of painful past choices.

This is not only for WS but for BS as well. ---> If this board feels comfortable for you all the time, you're probably not doing what you need to do to make important changes in yourself!!!!!

KY ventured outside her comfort level to get where she is... and if she had NOT ... she'd be hiding. She's not.

Pep

<small>[ January 23, 2005, 12:43 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Exactly Pepper!

Just wanted to throw this out here. Can't there be a new term RWS & RBS---Recovering Wayward spouse and recovering betrayed spouse? I have never liked the titles FWS & FBS myself. And recovering certainly sounds like the next step after Former. Someday I just want to be a spouse again. And I try to not refer to my husband in the present as a FWS. He is my sweet husband, my dear husband, my loving husband. I don't want to label him with the negative FWS anymore.

Tiggy

After reading everyone's emotional posts about this thread and considering my own opinion (which is all any of us have about this!) I've concluded that I still disagree with KY's position. You see; I have also made several mistakes in my life. And everyone of those former mistakes contributed to me becoming the person I am today. So I choose to consider my mistakes to be as important as my good-deeds! So yes; I'm a former shoplifter, I'm a former thug, I'm a former liar, I'm a former gossip, I'm a former and present sinner and so on. I'm also a former college graduate, a former inventor, a former successful business owner, a former Santa Claus, a former sports award winner in HS, a former field-trip father, a former... and so on. We choose to try & make people; strangers & friends cognizant of our good deeds but don't want to acknowledge our not so good. That does not change the fact that we are all former "somethings". It never will!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I once stole a pair of shoes from K-mart. I was with my mother, we walked through the store, I swung this pair of shoes around my fingers the entire time. We bought nothing, went to the car, started driving and I realized I was still holding the shoes. I never went back in to pay for them.

Now, I would never steal a thing.

Am I a forever to be known as a Former
Thief???? I do not see myself as such. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, you are a former thief.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">From the years of 18 - 20, I smoked an illegal substance, and often.

Now, I would never smoke anything.

Am I forever to be known as a Pothead? I do not see myself as such. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, you are a former pot-head.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...Now, I would never have an Affair.

Am I forever to be known as a Former Wayward Wife??? I NO LONGER see myself as such. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, you are a former wayward wife.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">All of these things are apart of my past, I WILL NOT be defined by them. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Shouldn't you then also denounce all parts of your past, no matter how good? How can we denounce only the bad parts of our past with good conscience? It seems to me there would be tremendous risk in doing this. Not only to ouselves, but our spouses, our children, our friends. By our action; we are choosing to be hypocritical. I cannot do that to those I love. I must show by example how to live life, love, recover from mistakes I make, and help those I hurt to recover from my mistakes.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I AM a woman of God.
I AM a wonderful Wife
I AM a fantastic Mother. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I believe you in all three cases.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...I will no longer carry my sin, I am shedding it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good. You are doing right in shedding it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What they think of me, is none of my business, what I think of me, gives me my worth. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Absolutely Correct! Awesome statement!

I just believe that in being a wonderful person, you can do so much more good by not hiding a fact of your life than you can by pretending that something did not happen. Good Luck!

FR <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Many of the viewpoints in this thread infuriated me. To the point that I took a couple of days to think about why.

Here is what I have come up with.

I have never been a WS. In many ways I don't understand how someone can bring themselves to break their vows. I can't help but think that if I had been, I would wear my "F" with pride anytime I posted here...I look forward to feeling like I can change my sig to read F!BS as it is.

From behind my eyes, I know that I would be very nervous if FU suddenly started denying the things she did. Even in so minor of a way as not characterising herself as a FORMER wayward spouse on a MB designed partially around that sort of identification of oneself to show those who have not completed recovery the viewpoint any particular poster is coming from.

In the past, I have been disrespectful of my parents.

In the past, I have used women purely out of selfish desires.

I have lied, and stolen, and hurt those who loved me.

I am not proud of these things. But it would be sick delusion for me to deny any of them, and would make the wrongs I did valueless if I started pretending "that wasn't me what did those things, I am a GOOD person", instead of always remembering them and the lessons I learned.

And the potential for wrongdoing I have proven I possess. And must always be vigilant against.

And I am VERY proud of the fact that I have learned better now. That these are my FORMER behaviors.

-OAK

Hey Bob <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ,

I said:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> However, shoplifting and adultury is not in the same ballpark.
.... This mistake is more than a speeding ticket, more than a forgetting to pay for something at the checkout. It is more than littering.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You said:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Show me in scripture where God seperates one sin as being more or les sinful than another ( apart from the mysterious 'sin that cannot be forgiven').

Shoplifting and adultery are different only in how must they hurt you personally.

In teh same way that liberal students think paedophiles need therapy and care while affected parents think they should be burned at the stake. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well Bob, I have read most of your posts and agreed, even shared your pain.

I don't have my Bible handy BOB. And even if I did, I don't have the wisdom or knowledge and understanding of the Almighty. It would however surprise me if He found shoplifting the equal to adultury.

Your assertion that it is only relevent in the way it hurts you personally doesn't hold water from my experience. I know a few shopkeepers, .... I don't know any who would rather have their wives cheat on them than have a pair of shoes stolen from them. So ... with all things being equal shopkeeper/betrayed spouse, I don't think they view the transgression equal (Stranger stealing shoes, Wife/Husband cheating.) But that is just the shop keepers that I know.

As far as paedophiles go. That comment has no relation to what I said. So it is not "in the same way" as you put it. And from what I can tell from your perspective, being a Pedophile is no worse than littering.

We disagree. And what we disagree about has nothing to do with WW's or FWW's, titles, or labels.

TJ

.

TJ I don't care.

Discussions like this about site politics or personal mores suck the life out of me. I have learned that usefully these past couple of days. I must not contribute to them anymore.

It doesn't matter what we think about this stuff, only how we feel about our lives.

All blessings

I am neither a BS nor WS. Therefore I read the posts from both sides without emotional luggage. In this thread that seams to be an advantage. From my point of view I must say that there is no real difference in this discussion on the important matter. Yet you are not kind to each other.

KY started the thread by a post to show how she has now recovered. How she has now redefined her person to be a very much non-WS.

She did not minimize her former choices nor did she minimize their consequences. She did not say she would stop learning from her past. She did not say that she would lower her defences and personal boundaries against future A’s. And she did not say that her H could not ask questions or discuss the A in the future.

Her choice of words, that she would not let her past define her future, did make some BS’s feel uncertain about this. Has she not realised how hurtful an A is? Does she believe she is now immune to future A? Hence we have now seen the addiction discussion etc. Is this yet another WS who have "put the A behind her" and expects her H to do likewise?
This uncertainty or suspicion in them is a result of their own experience of pain and betrayal.

It is perfectly understandable that people are ultra sensitive after betrayal. But, you should remember that reading motives and attitudes into the other’s statements is considered a disrespectful judgement. Allow the “author” of a statement to be the only one to know what was meant by it. And as a reader with no emotional luggage I think you are wrong to read a hidden agenda into her statement. She has chosen to be a better person and that’s it.

I myself firmly believe that it is possible to turn your back to a previous way of life and to redefine yourself. If that is done sincerely, that choice will certainly include taking ownership of previous choices and actions. I am certain that KY does so!

Peace to all of you!

<small>[ January 24, 2005, 04:21 AM: Message edited by: Frank57 ]</small>

Lots of people to get to. Thank you all so much for taking the time to post on my thread, I feel honored. 2x4's and all. I could have never handled them before, now I can. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Sorry it took me a couple of days.

Caren, what a great attitude you have. I'll pray your H comes back to you, be his lighthouse.

Weaver, OMG, you brought me to tears. I adore you, I so look up to you. You have such a great outlook on life. I strive to be the woman you all ready are. Love you.

F-again. Your forgiveness is kind, being nonjudgmental with the shoes you are wearing is hard to do. What a blessing you are.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What they think of me, is none of my business, what I think of me, gives me my worth.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As you might have guessed .... this is my favorite part ....

Pep, Get Gypsy a mouse. I didn't even give you credit for that line, sorry. A wonderful Quote I stole from Pep. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Thanks you are an inspiration.

Faith, I pray your H has the ability to forgive you. God bless you.

TT, and Tree, I think it is almost impossible to forgive somebody when they are still in the act of betrayal, you can not forgive something that is nonrepentant, can you????? I'm sorry for you both. Absolutely it is between my H and myself, all though others love to judge, this is the part I'm shedding, others opinion.

Starz, you are in such a painful place, it says so much about the person you are to be able to push aside any kind of judgment and just be my cyber friend. Bitterness, pain and anger, gives us a feeling of entitlement, yet you are rational enough to rise above it. I adore you.

BrownHair, great post, you said that much better than I. Thank you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Trix, tissue for you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> You said, 'the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior'....'a leopard doesn't change his spots'. I've always thought this as well. I know now if we learn from our behavior, and make changes, this is not true. It is all what we make of it.

Knewbetter, thank you.

Jen, I love you too, more than chocolate. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Dalton Dad, I was really expecting to get more post like this. What I am saying is I'm not that person, who would be a WS anymore. I have made self improvement. Nobody, well maybe my h, wishes more than I, that I would have taken a different path to get here, but I did not. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I do not have the same character of a WS anymore. I see your point, but I think you have missed mine. Absolutely my past has gotten where I am today. But I will not buy into somebody thinking, I'm that type of person, I'm not that person anymore.

Fish, I have in no way minimized my A. This is my point. We are letting it go. We have healed. Society, wants us to carry it with is, label us for life. I will not do this. I will not be bullied by society. I know how far I have come, society doesn't, you don't. A repeat A. NEVER gonna happen. Pep and Wat have said, they will never have an A. I believe them, they have Affair proofed themselves. So have I. You have your opinion, I understand it, I respect it, but it is just that your opinion, and mine is different.

TooSoon and BA, thank you for your post. I'm very proud to have beat this thing. Once again, what I am saying is I've made changes, what society see's as a WS, or FWS, I am not. I once was, but now I am not. I will no longer conflict avoid, I have built myself a treasure chest full of worth, I can now say NO to anybody, I know the right way to lead my life. I will still make mistakes, but fewer and on a smaller scale.

You got it! We are all Idiots! Some more, than others!

Said the Idiot. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Knewbetter, said, I've never actually spent much time reading there but I do get the impression that they watch each other's backs ala Bob supporting Jelly just now in this thread.

It's a beautiful thing, I-ville, lovely and beautiful. KB I have really enjoyed your posts, you understood me.

Brown, that was GREAT!!! I-ville would LOVE to hear all former things. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Ark, thank you so much for chiming in. Great post, like always.

Dobie, very proud of you. I think it is one thing to feel the way I do, but another for a BS to get it.

Mr. Good, I will never forget, nor will the others who this has touched.

Tom, not saying shoplifting compares to an A. Although to God, a sin is a sin. For us only it is differentiated. God has forgiven me. Your opinion of it, just that, your opinion. Just gave you a Jelly history lesson. I'm not looking to rewrite history, how disrespectful would that be to my H. I'm not looking to get out of this. We have worked through it. WE are recovering/recovered. You are missing my point. Like some of the others, but thanks for your post.

Me blue in the face now, but still smiling - PEOPLE, if you asked God, Is Jelly- Kyellow, an adulterous, what would he say?????? I'm guessing he would say, She is my child, and I love her. THIS IS MY POINT!!!!!

BA said-I am not condemning the FWS, I am just saying that if they don't fully accept the A for what it is, they will forever be vulnerable to another. Attempting to strip themselves of the moniker is a way of minimizing it and not dealing with all of the consequences...one of which is that the FWS will always be a FWS.

Seems to me you are, and this is exactly why I posted this thread. Society wants us to carry our sins forever, God has forgotten it, why because I have repented, and change my ways. I do not need your forgiveness BA, I have not done you wrong.

Posting this, and reading on.......