Even though Thos' post was a downer, I thought that it had some merit. I'm a FWW, and even though I'm regretful, sorry, etc., and my H has given me his forgiveness, the act of the A could never be erased, IMO. So, Thos has some good points. We can try to get over the hurdle of the A. We can try to rebuild and rectify our M. We can try to become better people than we were before. We can try to learn from the A. BUT, even if our M is better than before the A, the A will never completely be forgotten. Not that we have to bear the scarlet letter for having the A, but I think that deep in our BS' hearts, and even in the hearts of the FWS', the pain of the A will always be there.

CC

It’s very simple: On the Marriage Builder’s website, all the tools required to recover a broken marriage are right here. Even if a person didn’t have the money to buy the books, the information on this site alone would give them enough to affair-proof or recover a marriage already marked by infidelity. It’s ALL HERE. It is up to the individual to decide how much effort they want to put into recovery, The goal is clear for most. The recovery process is difficult and requires commitment but there is hope.

Thos, your post speaks of negativity, where is the hope? If this is YOUR truth, if this is the way you see it so be it, but it speaks as to where YOU are in the recovery process, not necessarily where someone else may be. I think of a struggling BS reading this and it just makes me want to cringe. That’s such a shame because there really IS hope for full recovery for both parties from an affair. That is what the MB concepts are designed to accomplish. Focus on implementing those rather than on all that is “ lost” and TRUE recovery will be within grasp.

Thos, we are what we think (worldview, if you will) and your post was very, very negative. I don’t mean to minimize any of your pain at all but it is my hope that there are many BS who can heal and move on without being forever scarred or limping through life as you put it. At some point the decision must be made to look ahead rather than back. All these thoughts are shared by my H and in fact he has been my inspiration in recovery. KB

BC and others,

Actually, the marriage will be better if the A is never forgotten. I keeps the BS' on their toes, and it keeps the WS' on theirs as well.

As for "getting away with it", I don't think anyone could say that a repentant WS who works to rebuild their marriage, got away with a darned thing. I have seen too many WS' on this site who were in great pain as they realized what they had done to another human being and especially to one they love.

I just don't think there is a "free lunch" for anyone involved with an A unless they are sociopathic in nature.

JL

JL,

Thanks for that explanation. You put it into words much better than I did! ITA, and that's what I meant by my comment-that it will never be forgotten. Not that it's a permanent stain, but it's something that altered your marriage and both of you. You hopefully live, learn and grow from your mistakes. I hope that I did!

CC

Thos..

Just wanted to say..that your post was excruciatingly well written. I tried and failed with several attempts to deliver that same opinion. I gave up and hoped that someone would succeed where I failed. Someone did <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Noodle

You see Noodle and Thos, this is what always comes up in your posts.

I'm well aware that if I'm late home my H's mind wanders. I'm well aware we live with this daily and we always will.

But it doesn't define us. What defines us is the fact that we've made it, we're a happily married couple, we get on with life, yes, even after I spoke to the OM recently. We talked about that, we discussed it at length, we got past it.

I know that KY and ST (her husband) have struggled mightily with all this and they've come through it.

Pep suggested I start a new thread called "the most successful recoveries on MB are defined by forgiveness." It's true and maybe I should start that topic.

Jen

Kiwi et all,

I guess I'm just not seeing what could possibly be objectionable about what Thos wrote and I agreed with.

I largely agree with what Ky wrote..except for a few things that made me uneasy, and Thos hit them dead on.

No, your A will not define who you are [this is the personal journey part] except when it does..if not define, certainly affect who you are to yourself..and to others [this is the long term real world consequence that can not be removed regardless of the desire by either BS or WS..it simply is].

I'm really unclear as to where forgiveness comes in to play with regard to that.

Perhaps, Kiwi, you could express just what, precisely you feel offended or slighted by?

Noodle

I wasn't offended or slighted at all. I think KY's post was misinterpreted a bit that's all.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> No, your A will not define who you are [this is the personal journey part] except when it does..if not define, certainly affect who you are to yourself..and to others [this is the long term real world consequence that can not be removed regardless of the desire by either BS or WS..it simply is].

I'm really unclear as to where forgiveness comes in to play with regard to that.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I agree it simply is. But it's no longer "there" constantly. The real world consequences are that I'm loved and valued by my H and my family (who all know). That's what defines me. I think that's what KY was saying.

As to forgiveness and where it fits in. I'm never made to pay and pay and pay by my H. He loves me, I love him and we're just glad we're together.

Jen

Ok,

I think I understand with better clarity now.

So of course I have to argue <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Being loved by your H and your family is in no way a consequence of your A nor does it define you.

What you seem to be saying with that statement..is that you personally CAN be defined by your actions or the actions of others..but only if they are nice..happy ones.

The truth is..that both affect and shape your existence..both the happy thoughts/actions and the ugly ones. They do not sum it up in total..but they do shape it. They affect what is available to you. Before your A, would your H be wetting his pants if you behaved oddly for a week? Or were late? A trust was offered that is no longer extended. This is..as Thos pointed out..no different than having a criminal record at a job interview..with the exception that the would be HR man is pulling for you with all he has <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> .

It's not the whole of your being..I agree. A person has to move beyond guilt. I agree with that too. To cast it off completely though, that is a bit squicky for me..because I don't think it is possible. Even from a Christian perspective..the eternal consequence of sin can be removed..as it has been paid in full. The natural consequence is left in place. Probably for a reason. I didn't make the rules, and I don't necessarily like them all..but I can't see a way out. Can you?

Noodle

Well, Noodle, being loved by my H and my family (and I'm talking about my adult children here) was a very big thing to ask of them after my A. They just see me as Jenny and mom now but that's not how it was just after d-day.

I guess part of how I feel is because I'm so old. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> (I'm 50). I just can't feel my whole life is defined by this when I got to 48 without even a slightly illegal action to my name. But, I suppose now I've changed that and will always be defined by this in some form. I was SO straight laced all my life. I bet you pick up on THAT one too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> .

I have to go and water my roses now, so will have to talk later. It's 7.30pm in this part of the world and high summer and so hot we've hardly been able to move today.

Jen

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> From Kiwi J:
It's 7.30pm in this part of the world and high summer and so hot we've hardly been able to move today.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BBRRRRRRRRR!
Well, it sure isn't here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
Gonna get a >little< More snow tonight.
If you believe the "weather" man that is.
Stop teasing ME! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
later

KY:
Since you started the "RWW" description (and I like it)....I'll give you the "props" for it.
Soooo...Nice one! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Sorry that I gave the wrong person the credit.
(no offense there kiwi)
bye-bye

Thos, trust and forgiveness are not the same thing. Of course my H will never trust me completely again. OM's W and I had a bit of contact since dday, to clear things up, very obvious she doesn't trust me, I'm not asking for that.

"Let’s take this a bit farther, also. You have committed a great wrong against several people who loved you or trusted you implicitly"

Thos, there is much you don't know, you don't know about the phone calls I have made, the letters of apologies I sent to other parties that were affected by this. I have done what I could do to make amends with people this touched. I could not go on about my life without giving a heartfelt apology. I had to give respect to many by acknowledging my lies and poor choices.

Thos, the shoes were accidental, but I chose to not go back, that I would do now. I would walk back into the store and say, I walked out with these.

"You have changed your victims’ world views for the worse, forever. At the very least, you have taken away their innocence and unconditional trust in life. They will never, ever be as happily innocent as they were before you operated on them. Hopefully they will get to a place where they no longer feel like victims. They may become happy again, but it will be for different reasons that existed before you did this. No matter what you think about yourself now, these people will never become what they could have been if you had not done this to them. That potential is erased and can never again be this side of heaven. "

Yes, Thos you are right. God is carrying my burden, he does not want me to carry this. I'm saying, society, and I guess I can pin point here and say You, want me to carry this with me. I'm letting it go Thos. Not because I don't care, not because I'm minimizing my A, but because that is what God wants us to do.

Thos, is that really what you want for me, to carry around all those miserable feelings, all the remorse, all the regret, all the guilt. Do you know how crippling they are? I have felt them for 10 months. I'm sorry if that is not long enough for you, I'm sorry if you really want me to feel pain because of the pain I caused. I'm just thankful my H and My God doesn't feel the same way.

Thos, honestly I stopped reading your post, I mean no disrespect, but it just seems you want me to feel bad, and I'm sorry, but I'm done being miserable. I want to live happily ever after. That does not mean, I'm still not sorry, that just means, I'm recovered, I've healed, my M has/is healing. We are making it Thos. This is good news.

OM's forgiveness, hmmm..... what do I think about that???? His opinion of me, is none of my business. He should not think good of me, I used him, we shared a sin. I'm indifferent when it comes to him.

Thank you for your post, even though I chose to stop reading some of it. See Thos, I have grown, before you would have brought me to my knees, and I NEVER would have stopped reading it.

Knewbetter, thank you from the bottom of my heart.

Noodle - I live with the consequences still, they surround me on a daily basis.

Their are pivotal moments in a persons life, my A has been one for those of us it has touched, but NO, it isn't who I am today. It has made me improve who I was, but it is NOT who I AM.

Thanks Jen for trying. I don't think I'm misunderstood, I just think some aren't ready to hear what I had to say. I know I'm not the most articulate person, but I think it is pretty clear. It's okay if they disagree, I'm in a happy place, and I'm happy for me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I guess MB just isn't ready for a RWW yet. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />


Thanks, KY

<small>[ January 25, 2005, 07:05 AM: Message edited by: kyellow4 ]</small>

Top Rope, Tiggy was saying it also. So props for Tiggy too. But thanks, really.

RWW - KY

KYellow4 -

MB BETTER be ready for a RWW, because if it is not, it might as well be shut down. I may be WRONG but I thought the goal of MB was to RECOVER...not to stand around and hurl stones.
I suppose I would be as cynical as some that have posted here if I was not truly recovered. The proof is in the pudding, as they say....
The Bible says:
"Love covers over a multitude of sins."

Anything else is just not Love.

NOW

NOW, I'm feeling VERY LOVED. Why is that a bad thing?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Great post!!!

Jelly,

I think when a person does not feel loved themselves, they become cynical and do not want anyone else to feel good. I have been there. I have not wanted to "accept" love out of fear of being hurt. I have not wanted to trust out of fear of being hurt.
But then I realized that as humans we just cannot expect each other to "love" perfectly, nor can we ever expect to be able to "trust" another implicitly or become implicitly trustworty ourselves. So what is a person to do?
To accept less than perfection in this life is not "settling" for less. It is the essence of love.

NOW

Double post.

<small>[ January 25, 2005, 07:42 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

KY,

After I’ve read this thread, I thought it would be so applicable to share the following poem here. I know you (and some of the other FWS’s like Jen, NOW etc.) will also appreciate this poem (it’s one of my favorite <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> :

WHEN I SAY “I AM A CHRISTIAN”

When I say, "I am a Christian,
"I'm not shouting "I am saved"
I'm whispering, "I get lost."
That is why I chose this way.

When I say, "I am a Christian,"
I don't speak of this with pride.
I'm confessing that I stumble
And need someone to be my guide.

When I say, "I am a Christian,"
I'm not trying to be strong.
I'm professing that I am weak
And pray for strength to carry on.

When I say, "I am a Christian,"
I'm not bragging of success.
I'm admitting I have failed and
Cannot ever pay the debt.

When I say, "I am a Christian,"
I'm not claiming to be perfect.
My flaws are too visible but God believes
I'm worth it.

When I say, "I am a Christian,"
I still feel the sting of pain.
I have my share of heartaches which is why
I seek HIS name.

When I say, "I am a Christian,"
I do not wish to judge.
I have no authority I only know
That I'm loved.

It's SO wonderfull to know that in spite of our flaws, weaknesses and imperfections as human beings, we are still LOVED by God and HE thinks we are worth it!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Blessings,
Suzet

Suzet, thank you, I have tried to search this poem before and come up empty. I will copy and paste this time.

Oh, and I feel a BS can appreciate this poem as well, none of us are free of sin.

Thank you

RWW, KY

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Oh, and I feel a BS can appreciate this poem as well, none of us are free of sin.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

KY, if you also want to find some of the other poems I've send in the past, you can find it all on this thread.

Suzet