Hello TM,

Been a while. I read your thread and I didn't post b/c I felt am feeling the same you did and didn't want to condone any actions. While you are man enough to admit that it was wrong you do have your reasons and I'm in no position to judge you, no one here is. I didn't post b/c I didn't want to say either way.

I'm feeling the same but I'm pretty sure I won't act on my feelings.

Like you said, what about me? What about my needs?

Since this is Marriage Builders, I guess I'll have to stop posting for a while until I figure out if I want to keep fighting for my M. It's hard to give this place up as it's definately a support for me.

Native

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's just 3 men in 3 months....</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay, I guess you want to talk about perception. "What type of adultery is worse than another?" 3 men in 3 months seems to leave little chance for much emotional bonding. Seems to be more chasing after something that she perceives is "missing." Perhaps it's knowing you "had" other women before her and she feels "left out" of the smorgasbord experience and is "getting caught up."

How about 1 man, deeply emotionally entangled and scores of sexual encounters over 6 years? Would that be "worse?" Native, "worse is worse" to each of us. We all see other situations as being "better than" or "worse than" what we ourselves are facing. Bottom line: "Sin is sin" and all sin is anathema to God. WE tend to assign values to various sins so that one is "not so bad" and others are "horrible." Granted, swiping a pack of gum from the grocery store is no where nearly as "bad" or hurtful as murdering someone or betraying someone through adultery.

But they are all an offense against God. No one is "perfect." "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">For better or for worse? Well the same could be said to every WS here. For me, I think Adultery would be very close to worse in every BS's thinking.

Much to think about.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course there is. We all have to face this and "think about it." What IS most important? Are you like me? I (and my wife) used to say, "if you cheat on me, I'm outta here in a New York minute?" That was BEFORE reality needed to be faced. Are you like me? I stopped doing much of anything related to church and felt that I was "secure" because I was a believer. Blind to Satan's subtle twists, I felt I didn't need God "every day." But God has shown me that I DO need Him, and that He IS there for me even when the disasters have stuck. He gently leads me back to where I should have been all along and seeks to instruct me in how to have an even closer walk with Him. Regrets? Sure. The past can't be changed, but the future is in God's hands and in obediently facing the challenges and choices of TODAY, we can shape a new future that does bring honor and glory to God.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So Forever did your WW choose you and become repentant and disgusted by her actions during her A? How did you get over the thought of her and OM together? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, Native, my wife did not "choose me." She chose the OM. After we separated and she had to face reality she chose to try to be obedient to God, to be my wife, to be the mother of our children....but did NOT love me at that time. Breaking off such a strong emotional entanglement with an OM is NOT easy. God does NOT ask us to follow Him or obey Him "when we are ready." God requires obedience no matter how we are feeling at any given moment. God simply says: "Do this, and all these things will be added unto you."

What say you about Job?

Native, today my wife is "in love" with me, but it took a long time to get back to that emotional feeling. Understand that God's command to husbands is to love their wife. God's command to wives is to respect and obey their husbands, not to love them.

Love grows from unselfish loving actions given to someone else without an expectation of getting something in return. Love Gives. "Feelings" come last, and are a natural result of what preceeded them. God gave us our emotions, but we have to control them, not let them control us.

How did you get over the thought of her and OM together?

You are talking about the infamous "mental movies." I think all of us men, and probably a lot more women than might like to admit it, understand how intense and debilitating those mental images are. Devastating is an understatement. Repulsive is too mild. Agonizing doesn't come close.

How? I haven't "gotten over them." I have put them away, but I've not forgotten them. I can't forget them anymore than God forgets anything. But I CAN choose to be faithful to the threefold promise that I made to my wife (and to my God and to myself) when I accepted her repentance and petition for forgiveness....I forgave her as Christ has forgiven me and remind myself of that forgiveness everytime resentment rises or triggers happen.

Native, memories, like all memories, will "fade with time." As you replace the "recent" painful events with new memories, the older ones fade back. They lose their intensity. They "are there," but they don't control us anymore. The new reality puts perspective into "that was then, THIS is now!" I keep mine "locked in a dark cell in some dark corner of my mind." I choose not to let them out and "examine them," or "dwell on them." Evil exists. Evil actions occur. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.

Native, especially early in recovery, there will be "triggers" that will flash those movies. They cut like a knife, but they are not fatal. They can be endured as a consequence of the sin and as a consequence of your choice to love and recover your wife and marriage, but not as a "defining" event that "Forces you" to behave a certain way (usually in an unloving way).

Native, I know that you will NOT understand this. NONE of us truly does until we "pass through" it. This is part of what is meant when you hear things like "recovery cannot be gone around, it must be gone through." There is no way to "go around" the tough parts of recovery. We all have to "go through" them. Much like conquering a "fear," it gets less "fearful" the more times you address the thing that makes you afraid and simply "do it." I only ask you to trust God and to DO what He commands, leaving the future in His capable hands. Let Him lead you through this "valley." He DOES know the path and He knows what is on the "other side," what your future can be if you follow Him.

A popular TV show today is "Fear Factor." Personally, I find little that is scarier or more fearful than recovery from adultery. Much of the most disgusting things that participants in the TV show are asked to do in order to "not get eliminated" and to "progress to the next challenge" and the ultimate victory don't hold a candle to the gut wrenching emotional horrors of betrayal by one we trusted with out innermost weaknesses and fears....the one we "let our guard down" with....our "better half."

Native, the "average" recovery time is 2 years. Recovery doesn't even start until both are willing to "Try," no matter what the "reason." Waiting to "try" until the "Finished result" (i.e., "in love feelings) occurs first is NOT going to happen. The cart cannot be before the horse if you want to have successful PROGRESS toward the ultimate destination and goal.

God bless.

<small>[ January 24, 2005, 07:28 AM: Message edited by: ForeverHers ]</small>

Native,

Do you sense that people here want you to hang on longer?? Well they do, yet... you are entitled to your opinions and your choices and when it all gets finished it is your life as well.

Let me point out a couple of things for you to consider.

1. You never would have believed your W was capable of this type of behavior right? Well, then you can understand that you cannot believe that your WW could be your W can you?

The point here is not to slam any doors. If divorce has been filed, then let it move along but keep your options open. You have been given several testimonials about the power of God and the changes that can occur.

2. What everyone knows is that affairs end, she has ended two of them to move on to a third. That is good news and bad news. But only time will tell which it really is. You cannot assess it right now. Hence everyone's encouragement to hang in there. My personal guess is she is looking for the right man, to justify her leaving and she is not finding him. They usually don't. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Guess who the right man is...that would be you.

3. I am not sure a plan B letter would be affective because she might well end it with OM#3 and then find #4. Who knows. But, a letter along plan B might open a door in her heart abit.

Native, you will have to listen to your heart and the look at the actions she puts forth. If I recall you take care of the kids most of the time right? If that is so, keep being a great Dad, and let the divorce proceed IF the papers have been filed. IF they have how long does it take for the divorce to become final??

So in all you seem to be doing OK with this. Your W has only been gone less than a month. It often takes a few months before the "fun" of being on your own starts to seem less "fun". You are right to question whether you would want her back, but frankly you won't know until the times comes and you are really confronted with the reality that she wants to come back. So just realize just as your perceptions of your W changed with her affairs, you perceptions of your WW can change IF she ends them and truely seeks healing and you again. No one knows how they will react.

Hang in there, you are doing better than you think.

God Bless,

JL

Again, a Plan B letter is not a promise for reconciliation, or a commitment to continued love. It outlines the conditions needed to communicate again at all. As in a five-minute phone call, for example. Or a short email.

If she wants him back, she will have an uphill struggle. Communication is a precondition -- but no guarantee of anything. For the BS, it is also a good escape hatch/rationale for continued non-communication.

For me the PBL was, as someone said on here, "the high road." It didn't "do" anything much -- it ended things on the highest note possible.

JL, Forever, and A.M.

There is a lot to read here and digest in your last few posts. I'm going to print them out and reread them. I just wanted to check in before I go to work and let you know that I appreciate your comments immensly. I will respond as soon as I can.

One quick comment though.

JL you said that I was doing better than I thought and A.M said to scrounge up the last cannisters of love that I have. Well that's the problem though. I pretty sure that I don't have any love for her anymore and like I said before that I don't care who she screws anymore OM#4, 5, 10. It doesn't really matter to me anymore. I thought I read somewhere that indifference is the polar opposite of love so that's when you know that your done. I don't know if it's indifference but it doesn't hurt that I think she's going to be moving on to her next OM.

Any way I have to go to work and will respond to your great posts later.

Thanks!!!!
Native

PS. Since she contracted that STD, how does that play into this? Do I expose myself to that? It could be lifelong, ie warts, Hep C, HIV. I still don't know for sure what she has.

It plays into it, but she is still your children's mother.

Nature, right now any idea of getting back together is fruitless anyhow. She has shown no interest in this, so move on as your feel you should.

God Bless,

JL

Well FH,

Your right the pain of each of us is relative to the perception that we have of our own plights. Please don't think that I was saying that my sitch was more painful than yours or anyone else's. I was merely stating the difference between a "NORMAL" person that "thinks" they are in love with their soulmate and "SLUT" that goes and does any guy that comes there way.

Yes I also know that sin is sin in GOD's eyes. There is no difference to him whether we steal a piece of gum or commit adultery. Both of these God forbid in his commandments.

Do I think this is a trial that God has allowed (I know that God didn't make this happen) but I also know that he didn't stop my WW and I from bringing this upon ourselves, a resounding YES. I do feel that this is a personal trial, just like Job but not as bad obviously. I had prayed and fasted during the month of Dec. with my MIL and members of my church. My MIL and I made the agreement that come Jan. (when WW was going to move out) we will give WW too the Lord. I feel that I have given my best during my 3 months, and I also feel that I have come closer to God. Which was his ultimate goal. I have made a promise to myself, MIL, and more importantly to God to become the spiritual man/father that I was supposed to be and I will not break that promise.

That being said I have put my trust in God. Yes I did file for the D, maybe it was for the wrong reasons. WW just can't seem to make up her mind I've asked her what she wanted. I was tired of her fence sitting. So I went and filed, Dv's take 6-12 months so I'm sure I have time if WW comes around.

I guess what you and JL are saying is that I don't have to make the decision on if I want my W back. As she is not my W yet, still WW. So I guess I continue what I've been doing, taking care of myself and my kids.

But isn't this just putting off the decision. As at some point I will have to make this decision, given that you MB vets are correct (which you are more than not) in that my WW will turn around. I saw in another posters thread that he is now all torn up b/c after 6 months his WW is wanting to come back and now he has to make up his mind.

That was a dumb question about the mental movies, I knew from reading the posts hear that only time will heal. I just don't want to think about it at all. I've been thinking lately, okay Native you have this pain right now. This pain will probably be with you for the rest of your life (triggers). This pain could be lessened with a fresh start, with someone that could take care of me, read the books I have read, make different memories, erase my WW from my life in a way. Or I could reconcile and have more pain and triggers. Of course as I type this I can see the hurdles of both paths.

JL, You are right, many people want me to hang on longer. I thank the Lord for this place and it's people many times a week.

Your also right in that I didn't think my WW would become a WW so I don't know what else she is capable of, that could also be bad.

So no Plan B letter JL? I was thinking of writing one, just as A.M said to leave the lines open. However in the letter aren't we supposed to say that we want our M, and that we want to reconcile? As you know I don't know if I want to yet.

All of you are saying that I don't have to make up my mind yet, so I guess I'll do that. The legal process has been started though, so WW has a timeline even if she chooses not to think so.

Native

Native,

Even if the divorce goes through, she may still want to return. I was divorced from my first wife for a few years when she asked to return. So whether it's 6 months, or 6 years, you still will have to make your decision.

For what it's worth...Yes, I think part of you does still love W, if not WW. You may not know it, but I think it's still there.

Like me, you could probably say you want your M. But not under any conditions. While writing my PBL I was keenly aware that it took more than my wanting to bring about the kind of M I would want to be part of. WH had done a great deal of damage that was going to take a great deal to overcome. And it was going to take a huge amount of work on HIS part. Even then, it was a dicey deal. And that was some time ago.

I don't think a PBL means they can show up on your doorstep 20 years later and say, "Take me back!" And you will have been waiting.

What I meant by mine was: it's too painful to communicate with you when you are in denial, and babbling fogtalk, and sucking on OW. I don't want to talk to you or hear from you till OW is out of the picture. THEN I'm open to communicating. But there's no guarantee I'm going to be waiting with a candle in the window. You are taking your chances. You will have to risk ending the affair and still winding up with nothing. This demand is not unreasonable: I have had nothing for quite some time.

If you take me up on my offer now, we can begin to explore what's possible. A first date is not a proposal of marriage. It's a process that might lead to a marriage proposal. Similarly, the PBL to me were the conditions that would need to be met to begin negotiations. It's no guarantee that a treaty will be signed.

(Unspoken message: if it's truly over, I really don't consider you someone I want to hang out with, just to make you feel better about what you've done. If we're headed for D, please don't call, and please don't give me nuthin' to remember you by.)


___________________

On a few hours' reflection, the above sounded a bit harsh, and I don't mean to imply that's what my PBL actually *said.* I really don't know what you should do, Native, but I know I don't regret sending my PBL, as a final, loving shot in a terrible situation. It really freed me, knowing I'd done my best, and sent the best, final love letter I could muster after months of awfulness from him. I couldn't have done it better. No "I wish I'd said" months later. Nothing unsaid that I think might have turned things around. In the following months, that was a great consolation.

And I don't view PBL as a commitment to anything. Life could change for you hours after you send it, and it will have been her tough luck for waiting too long.

That's all I'm trying to say.

<small>[ January 25, 2005, 10:59 PM: Message edited by: A.M.Martin ]</small>

Hello Rag,

Good point I didn't think about that possibility although 6 years is a stretch!

Hi A.M.

Yeah I've been thinking about the PBL. Since you and FH and some others have kind of gently prodded me into it. I don't know if it would be of the Love letter type, maybe just the kind of hope and possiblity type. I think A.M that I would also have many, many preconditions that WW would have to meet as well as her knowing that it was going to take a lot of work on her part. To be honest I just don't see her really caring about the letter. I'm almost certain that she won't go along with my requirements, and I'm really okay with that. (Is that bad). Like I said I don't know if I want this M or not.

So I was thinking about getting my PBL drafted up and then get the final copy and take it to her work. Then in front of her and her coworkers say something like:

BS: I have always loved you "WW", and I would have been willing to lay down my life for you and the kids. Inspite of your affairs, I tried for the past 3 months to turn you back to do the right thing. Please read this letter and take it at face value, don't read anything into it. Goodbye.

What do you think, exposure at work (which I haven't done) and delivering the PBL at the same time?

Native

Hi Native,

You've given me a lot of support and encouragement over the last couple or so months, and I just want to return the favor!

I'll back away from offering any advice, 'cuz I'm obviously not so good at this stuff... BUT...

You sound good... you sound strong!
I'm rooting for you!

tqt

Hello tqt,

Thanks for the thumbs up brother! I do feel much stronger than when I first found this place 3 months ago. Thanks to the many, many fine people here. Thanks be to them for pointing me to SAA, HNHN and much great advice.

I've learned so much and my eyes have been opened to so many things, some good and some bad.

Native

Don't know the wisdom of exposure at this point, but it seems you already put the gist of your PBL in your previous post. It can be short, and tailored to your circumstances and current emotional state. You don't have to outline all the conditions for restoration of M, just the conditions needed to renew communication.

Don't know that my own PBL did much -- didn't stop the momentum of the A, from what I can see. But the effect on me was enormous.

I'll let others chime in.

Hi A.M

Thanks for the advice. So know on the exposure at work? That was advised to me a while back, but I didn't do it b/c I couldn't see the reasoning as OM wasn't at work. It's just that's where I know I could get the PBL to my WW at work.

Yeah I'm thinking my PBL will be kind of short and too the point.

Native

With no LBs and blame though -- that's one of the rules. I'd post it, explaining your circumstances and that your Love Bank is overdrawn at present. That, for you, this is more a way of winding things up than a real hope in a magic turn-around -- and a way of winding things up with no regrets on your side. (And, as JL warned, get some advice about fake turnarounds that will waste your time -- though, like me, you aren't expecting any reaction at all.)

Thing is, Native, although you say your love is dead, you're likely to find it resurfacing in a month or so, at some unexpected moment. This way, when it does, you will know that you did the best you could. There's nothing more that you could say. You won't be tempted six months from now to try one more time. You'll know you already did.

A.M.

Okay, okay you guys have convinced me to write the letter. Like you said it's not a reconcile letter, more of a wrapping things up letter. I'll start putting the pieces that I have together.

I'll post it as soon as I get it together, hopefully by this weekend.

Is shorter better? Or speak from the heart and let it ramble on? I think if I go from the heart only hurt and pain will show, course those are my true feelings so why hide them at this point.

Native