Ken-

LMAO @ the emphasis on mental. WH's do put the "MENTAL" in "SENTIMENTAL" LMAO!!!!

What do you think about the picture thing though? Is that a good idea, or am I just thinking manipulatively again...I'm good at that.

-Caren

Caren,

Forgive me, but might I ask you a question? Do you know why he is having the A? Have you by chance asked him?

Please understand that I can see the incredible efforts you are putting in to be there for him, and remind him of the good times, and his love for you. And in no way am I minimizing the pain his A is causing you - you are very right that you don't deserve to be treated like this....

But have you begun to think about some of the things that you might be able to work on in yourself? The reason I ask is not to say that you are not a good woman - but to rather encourage you to begin focussing on some of the 'deeper' aspects of your M.....

For instance, I notice that there is a lot of vulgarity b/w you and your H in your communication. IMVHO, speaking to each other like that is not necessarily communicating in a loving manner. I would personally even take it somewhat disrespectfully if my H spoke to me like that.

Not to say you don't have a right to feel like that.....but just wanting you to really begin looking at the 'why' of things. This will help you recover and progress regardless of the outcome of your M.

Please forgive me if I am being a stick in the mud. But sometimes I think we can get so caught up in 'how to WIN them back' that we forget to look at the real message of the A. Kind of like trying to treat the symptoms instead of the disease, you know? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

(((((Caren)))))

Is this all worth it? That's a good question. If I knew that I could have the kind of relationship that is the ideal espoused here than I would say yes.

I doubt that my W would ever be able to change enough for us to have that kind of R. I think that she is too self-centered and shallow. But when I look back on how much I have changed the last two years I see that it is possible. So it's worth it to me to tough it out and give her a chance (that's if she ever asks for one). So right now it's worth it to me to fight for the chance to see if it's worth it, see? If so could you explain it to me?!

Seriously, as I have learned to make this process more and more about MYSELF it has been great. I feel better about myself now than I ever have. It's given me a direction and taught me to set goals and always be on the lookout for ways to improve myself. It has slowly become something that really has nothing to do with my W. It's much bigger than that now. So I would say it has been worth it no matter what.

LIT mentions that MB's concepts are not games and are not meant for manipulation, but the truth is they are manipulative. Even if your heart is in the best place we are doing things to win the love back of someone who in most instances doesn't love us at all. The intentions are good, but the actions are still manipulative. My intentions of PLAN A are for all the right reasons, my WH thinks it all is a hoax...that I am trying to lure him back. So now I am moving to PLAN B and doing what I need to do to stay healthy and happy. PLAN A sucks the life right out of you, especially when the WS gives nothing in return. I will PLAN B and if my WH doesn't some around with some peace offering in say 30 days I am filing for divorce.

Marriage should not be about games. It shouldn't be one sided as TreeReich and myself are experiencing. And I have come to the realization that my WH probably really doesn't love me and never will. I never feel validated as a person when we do see each other. Saving that type of marriage is really not worth it. God never intended us to be miserable in our love relations. God understands having people turn their backs on you all to well. He goes on loving them but he doesn't grovel for them to love him back. He says "Look, here I am. I will always be here for you, but I have other things to tend to while you are deciding." He gave us free will to make the decision to have him in our life or not. He gave us free will to make decisions and to do certain actions or not. So PLAN B does exactly that.

Really Just Call Me...only 30 days for plan B? That's not very long....to each his own, the book has them waiting like 18 months....I don't know if I can take it that long, but I'll try.

I believe the games are worth it, but I am going to Plan B in the near future, I have to detach soon, it's eating me alive....but I'm gonna Plan A a little longer.

As I've said in previous posts....I see a glimmer of the man I married in the alien he is now...I honestly do, I don't think he's that far gone.....maybe I'm just foggy too...dunno, but I swear I can see him in there. I let him have his cake and eat it too for a while longer, and then I'll take all the EN's I've been supplying away.......and hope for the best.

Okay....well I've been in 'group' all day, and I need to do something around here.

-Caren

At counseling today (I'm in an intensive outpatient treatment program) I was feeling half way decent....strangely enough, because I'd had a horrible 2-3 days before this.

Last week on Thursday there was a guy sitting next to me, he didn't say much, he just sort of soaked it all in. Well today in group, other people were talking and the counselor finally said "Caren? you and XXXX are in similiar circumstances, and neither one of you has said a word."

I said "I wasn't talking because last week I took up so much of the time that everyone didn't get a chance to talk."

Then this guy XXXX starts talking. He said "My wife was having an affair.....she's living with her Mother, she has the kids, she says she doesn't love me anymore"

I said "Did she say she didn't love you? Or did she say "I love you, but I'm not IN LOVE with you?"

He looked surprised and said "YEAH! That's exactly what she said!"

We aren't allowed to give advice to others in group, so I refrained from that.....but I said "Is she still seeing him?" He said "She said she's not"

I said "How did you find out about the A? Did she tell you, or did you find out some other way"

He basically said that he had cornered her and she admitted it, but said that it was over. Then he said "I take some of the blame, I was emotionally unavailable to her"

I said "Who said you were emotionally unavailable? Her....or are you saying that about yourself"

He said "No, she told me that....."

I said "She's trying to make it your fault......Everything is all my fault too"

He's been calling the heck out of her, driving by her Mom's house to see if she was there...and even was on his way to the OM's house to kill him, and on the way he said he thought about his kids, so instead of going to the OM's house he went and signed himself into NetCare (Which is where I was when I was suicidal)....I assume he was suicidal at that point too.....if he was willing to kill the OM.

I am going to give him the names of the MB books and this website, I don't know if he has a computer or not, I hope so, this is such a valuable resource....and I can tell by the look on his face he's in a lot of pain.

I'm a fixer....I want to fix everything for everybody....and my heart just went out to him, I wanted to tell him everything I knew about these situations. (I realize I can't actually fix this person, but I can't help wanting to).

Then I had to have a talk with my counselor 1 on 1...I hadn't cried all day....until then. She was asking some questions I didn't have the answer to. These counselors ALL ask me what I love about my WH, and I can never pin it down, it's everything....just everything about him.

She said that I need to limit my exposure to him, because it's like salt in my wounds everytime I see him/talk to him.

Then she said "If you could wish for anything right now, what would it be?"

I said "To have my family back"

I also told her I have a time limit for torturing myself....and that I'd be having no contact with him shortly...I didn't go into the MB concepts, because she was already telling me that I have lost who I am.......she's dead on about that, I don't know who I am without my WH......I knew I was a wife/mother and that I was going to school and working. But my whole universe revolved around my family....and now it's just POOF gone.

I'm talking to my step-son on the computer right now, I'm going to have him over to stay for a weekend soon.....It's gonna make my WH hella mad at me though.

Okay, well I'm out for now...I don't have anything earth shattering to say this evening.

-Caren

<small>[ January 25, 2005, 08:50 PM: Message edited by: CarenMc ]</small>

Okay....so I didn't talk to my WH all day yesterday until he called to tell DD10 goodnight, then he asked to talk to me. He was just telling about his day, and how his uncle came and picked up some furniture he didn't want. I was trying to get DD10 into bed, but she was being a goofball. I said "Sheesh I can't get her to sit still long enough to get her in bed" (She's been sleeping with me ever since we separated). He asked me how my group meetings have been going....I said "Good"

He said "What do you do there"

and I said "We talk in group and then we have these little side classes like "anger management"

He said "Anger management huh?" I said "Yeah, I have anger issues"

He said "Do ya now?"

I said "Yep"

I said "You've known me for 12 years, you know what I want to do in this situation, right?"

He said "Not commit suicide"

I said "....No...."

He said "I don't know then"

I said "Think really hard"

And he said "Beat someones @ss?

I said "Bingo"

Then he said "Well that won't get you anywhere"

I said "Nothing is getting me anywhere"

Then I said "Actually it would 'get me somewhere pretty quick" (Jail)

I said "You realize I can right? You realize it's a struggle everyday not to...don't cha?"

He didn't reply

I said "You know I could do it"

He said "Yeah, I know"

I said "The only thing that's between me and her is YOU, so she better pray to God I don't become unhappy with you."

He wasn't mad or anything he was being playful through the whole conversation.

Then he starts talking SF talk to me......He's cake eating....but that's okay, because I'm going to take advantage of it yet again.....There's obviously SOMETHING the OW isn't doing for him that I AM doing, or why would he keep coming back? This will bode well for Plan B I believe.

Okay....I gotta jet, got group again today.

-Caren