I understand that the whole concept of MB is to make the cahnges so there won't be another A in the future. I just wonder if a WS feels like they can do it again in the future and feel that the BS will take them back.

MIF?

I know that this probably isn't the response that you are looking for but, I feel that if the person is truly sorry for what they have done no it is not an open pass to do it again. I have been on both sides of the spectrum and there are many people who feel if they can get away with it once they can continue and nothing in there life will change. I hope that things will work out for you.

Absolutely not.

My wife made it exceptionally clear that if this ever happened again, there would be no second chances.

The idea that my wife would forgive/not forgive me never played into my decision to have the first affair. I actually expected her to tell me to hit the road then.

IF I ever let myself get to the bad place I was, and had another affair, I doubt the fear of forgiveness/unforgiveness would play into it at all.

That's why it is so important to never let ourselves get in that condition again.

Low

God I hope not <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> , because let me tell you what. If he ever does this to me again, I can guarantee I won't stick around and I have made that crystal clear.

I know he is totally not to blame for the affair, I had my part in it. But what I do blame him for is not loving me enough to work it out and taking the easy way out. Our marriage wasn't the best, I'll be the first to admit that, but you didn't see me going and having an affair.

If he's willing to hurt me again like that, especially knowing what it did to me the first time, there is no way in hell I wouldn take him back a second time, and it wouldn't matter how much I loved him. A person can only handle so much pain, and I think if he did this to me again, that would about put me over the edge.

I would hope that what we BOTH have been through since D-Day, it hasn't been pretty for either one of us, that he wouldn't be willing to jeapordize what we have worked so hard to over come.

<small>[ January 24, 2005, 03:21 PM: Message edited by: 2B Us Again ]</small>

MIF,

Unfortunately, it does. That statement is predicated on the fact that most BS's do NOT make the changes necessary to insure that it does not happen again. The biggest mistake is for the BS to welcome the WS back without any of the plan B requirements(NC, IC ,MC among others) being part of the equation.

While the temptation is do anything to lessen their own pain, the BS has the capacity to truly control almost all aspects of the R. This fact is also why a lot of the WS's are frightened to death of coming home. I believe Mr Seinfeld called it "having (upper) hand". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Amusing, but true.

Send the message that they can do it again....

Speaking from my completely personal recovery experience....NO!.

Because H returned to me gladly of his own free will and in full knowledge of the things he needed to DO (not just say) in order to enjoy the "Welcome Home" mat at my door.

I really love the hell out of my Man today. He is awesome! We had a night of hanky-panky and I am glowing <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Pep

Amen Pepp! It must be the moon! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

General Questions II » Does taking a WS back after infidelity send the message that they can do it again

I understand that the whole concept of MB is to make the cahnges so there won't be another A in the future. I just wonder if a WS feels like they can do it again in the future and feel that the BS will take them back.

MIF...are these questions for real...

all people have the potential to do really really bad things....one time ...two times...many times..

no garuntees.....

and no changes that a BS makes garuntees anything....

anyone better not take a WS back...till committed to repair in word...and ACTION...

how many take WS back with no formal counseling in place...

dumb dumb dumb in my opinion....

I think MB is bigger than changes...I think marriage building is grasping the concept of the sanctity of marraige....

that truly recovered marriages...look very little like pre-affair marriages by both spouses...which is what diminishes the risk of second affair...
ARK

Agreeing with Cymanca,

And fleshing it out abit.

Your Q, as stated..the short answer is YES.

So let's look at that.

I am one of many who had told my H..if you ever are unfaithfull to me, I will leave you.

He was unfaithfull.

I didn't leave.

As much as I hate to accept it..this sets a precedent. Not just for him, but for me as well. Now when I think about the possibility of future infidelity..and what would I do..I really can not say with certainty that I would leave. Immediately my mind begins to make concessions..circumstances..imagined scenarios in which I might be willing still to try and work it out. That scares me, it really does. The truth is that I balked and we both know it..and while he is gratefull to have another chance..he probably respects me a little less as well..I certainly do.

I had to drop my standard in order to continue in this marriage. If I can drop it once..who is to say that I won't do it again? Who is to say that there is some degree of "low" that I won't venture into?

I read the posts of BSs.and think..how can they think that the way that they are living is acceptable? Answer? They are comfortable in it because it has become normal to them. Same way that a great many WSs find themselves in the circumstances that they do. A little concession here..a little drop there..and before you know it your lives are practically unrecognizable..to everyone but you.

Infidelity is a question to which there ARE no truly GOOD answers. Recovery *is* a gamble..because there *is* a difference between could and did. Divorce is a real loss..it is a permanent death of something that once was beautifull and full of hope and life.

In this case..I chose to lose one arm over the other. If it happens again, I guess I lose them both.

Noodle

I think ARK has a point... even Dr. Harley states that he or his W are capable of having an A. Sad but true.

Does it make one more likly to have one if they've done so previously? Not sure that is a one answer fits all question.

Here is one of the things I've told my FWW. Prior to your A I had blind trust in you and that is not healthy anymore than total mistrust is healthy. I will trust again simply not blindly.

W amd I talk on a regular basis about A proofing our M. Does this guarantee it will never happen again? Well as my daddy always said "there are no guarantee's in life son". Does it mean it is less likly to happen. I SURE HOPE SO!

Always remember that IT'S A GREAT DAY TO BE ALIVE!!!!!

Ark is dead-on right!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">anyone better not take a WS back...till committed to repair in word...and ACTION...

how many take WS back with no formal counseling in place...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I tried! WXW said she could do it w/no counseling. I (blindly) trusted again; but was sadly mistaken. WXW wanted no counseling so counselor would not bust her story. She stayed about 8-days that time. Don't do it w/o full and complete NC and counseling. I am your poster-child for this! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

FR

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The truth is that I balked and we both know it..and while he is gratefull to have another chance..he probably respects me a little less as well..I certainly do.

I had to drop my standard in order to continue in this marriage. If I can drop it once..who is to say that I won't do it again? Who is to say that there is some degree of "low" that I won't venture into?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There are a few things that trouble me in these statements...

Why did you have to drop your standard? Do you truly believe that the fact that you chose to forgive his transgression means you have lowered your standard? This should not be so. If anything, my wife's naivity was stripped away and she has a much better ideas of just where the standards are...and they are pretty high.

We both have much higher standards for the perfromance of our marriage these days.

You said your H respects you less...
Didn't he learn ANYTHING from this? If anything, my respect for my wife is 1000% what it was. She took injury and showed me mercy. She made efforts to change what was wrong. She impressed the hell out of me. She was stronger than I ever imagined she would be. What's not to respect?

You said you respect yourself less...
Because you swallowed your pride and decided to change your mind? This takes guts. This takes admitting to yourself that maybe you didn't have everything all figured out before and now you need to look at things differently. Again I ask...what's not to respect?

If you truly believe that you've had to settle for lower standards and less respect then I truly feel sorry for you. I really hope you and your H will reach a point where you can restore your standards and respect for each other. If you can never do this, I fear you are condemned to living only a shadow of a marriage that could be. Is this good enough for you? It wouldn't be for me.

Low

loworbit said...

We both have much higher standards for the perfromance of our marriage these days.

If anything, my respect for my wife is 1000% what it was. She took injury and showed me mercy.

mr. E said..

Prior to your A I had blind trust in you and that is not healthy anymore than total mistrust is healthy. I will trust again simply not blindly.

W amd I talk on a regular basis about A proofing our M.

now to me that sounds like decreasing any type of message that says its OK to do this again...

ark

Low,
thank you sooo much for your words. I have been feeling exactly like noodle. I have thought look at this pathetic person I have become. However, what you just said sounds an awful lot like what my WH has said to me. I just didn't trust that a WH could feel like that. So, thank you for your words. And yes, I agree that when both parties are working at it, and continue working on it, an A is less likely to happen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Noodle, why do you think your H has loss respect for you. This got me to wondering and I will ask my husband tonight, but I would hope if anything he has more respect for me.

I was also one of those, if you ever cheat on me, I am gone. Well guess what, he did and I didn't. I'm not sure that you are being fair to yourself or to him for that matter.

You say that you balked, well guess what, so did he. I'd like to think that no, you (we) didn't lower your standards, you (we) took responsibility in the fact that your H wasn't soley to blame for the break down of the marriage and this is your (our) way of to start to build that marriage back up. That is how I wish to look at it. Not sure if this makes sense, I am so much better at explaining things in person, than typing them.

But if my husband has lost respect for me because I was willing to give our marriage another shot, well that is a whole different problem that is going to have some major issues!

MIF,

Glad to see you posting a question like this. Does this mean you are having second thoughts about the D?

In regards to your questions, and I am no expert, I would think that taking them back without any boundaries or proof of change would indicate to them there are no consequences for their actions. But if you hold to your boundaries and work at keeping the relationship completely open (no secrets on either side) then you can really have a good shot at recovery. I know that you have tried NC and recovery and it didn't turn out so well. In your case it would definitely have to be a personal decision on if you see any real change in her and if you think she can respect your boundaries this time.

MIF,

Everything in life is a gamble. LOVE is always a gamble. The first time your marry someone it is a gamble.

The question (to me) really should be, are you willing to take that gamble, again.

Having my daughter has instilled more fear in me than I have ever known. If I had it to do all over again would I have her again? The fear, the chance that at any minute on any day she could be taken from me, the fear that she will somehow be hurt by this life... fear, fear, fear, uncertainty at ever corner.

YES, I would have her again. NO question.

To love is always a gamble. ARE you strong enough to take that chance? Is she worth it to you? Can you, will you survive another one of her affairs, if it should happen that way?

For me with my ex, the answer I believe is no. I will not risk it again with him. He is not worth it to me at this point.

The answer like most lies within you, just like the question does.

Thanks for the replies. I was just wondering *if* my WW and I were to work it out if she would deep down think "Well, I had an A and my H took me back so (as Seinfeld once said) 'I've got hand' <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> and can do whatever I please and my H will take me back."

ark^^, yes this question is for real.

Slacker, I have always been hopeful my WW and I could work this out, but filed for D because I a) didn't think she would get rid of OM b) didn't like the person I was becoming (filled with rage and hatred) c) didn't want to drag this out any longer than I had to if she wasn't going to get rid of OM.

MIF?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LowOrbit:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The truth is that I balked and we both know it..and while he is gratefull to have another chance..he probably respects me a little less as well..I certainly do.

I had to drop my standard in order to continue in this marriage. If I can drop it once..who is to say that I won't do it again? Who is to say that there is some degree of "low" that I won't venture into?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There are a few things that trouble me in these statements...

Why did you have to drop your standard? Do you truly believe that the fact that you chose to forgive his transgression means you have lowered your standard? This should not be so. If anything, my wife's naivity was stripped away and she has a much better ideas of just where the standards are...and they are pretty high.

Low, I had to drop my standard because one of the conditions of my standard is that I DO NOT have, tolerate, or accept remotely people in my life that I do not trust. Period. Except for the one that is in my bed right now.

Forgiveness and reconciliation are two separate issues entirely. He is forgiven, I can even go so far as to sympathize as well as empathize. I believe that he will and must move beyond this in his personal journey but it changes nothing with regard to our marital history. My naivete was stripped away along with my innocence at a very young age...which is precisely why my standards are so high. Low living is not something to be trifled with, it will cook you and eat you. It will eat your children in front of you and you won't care. He looked at the spinning wheels and bright lights though, and he wanted to just touch it a little bit. He thought he could. He didn't take the threat seriously. He was a fool. I'm SORRY that this is so. I'm SORRY that he will have to carry this burden. I KNOW it is painfull. What lies in my bed now though..has been a wolf, that tried to eat us. It maybe has reformed..maybe permanently..I am literally betting my future on it. I'll never really know though..not really, not ever.

We both have much higher standards for the perfromance of our marriage these days.

You said your H respects you less...
Didn't he learn ANYTHING from this? If anything, my respect for my wife is 1000% what it was. She took injury and showed me mercy. She made efforts to change what was wrong. She impressed the hell out of me. She was stronger than I ever imagined she would be. What's not to respect?

Low, if I remember correctly your M was in pretty bad shape at the time of your A. Let's not generalize though. Mine was not. Perhaps that is difficult for you to accept because it was not the truth that you lived, and you can not imagine it to have played out differently. My standard for myself is higher still, and I didn't have much to change aside from becoming MORE controlling and LESS trusting. Which I HATE. As I said previously, there is a difference between forgiving and accepting. To have acted in accordance with my standard would have been to say I forgive you...but you are OUT. I broke that standard because I loved him, and wanted him in my life. I think it was probably the lesser evil so to speak, but there IS a consequence to that choice. I'm getting to that respect issue in a moment.

You said you respect yourself less...
Because you swallowed your pride and decided to change your mind? This takes guts. This takes admitting to yourself that maybe you didn't have everything all figured out before and now you need to look at things differently. Again I ask...what's not to respect?

What's not to respect? I broke my own word..not corrected. Broke. I wasn't wrong, I made an exception based on my feelings. Sure..that takes guts..so does jumping off a building..doesn't make it a wise choice. Shouldn't cry too much if you break every bone in your body doing it. Shame on you if you take your children along for the ride and risk their bones as well..but that is precisely what I have done.

What's not to respect? Ask any WS being plan Bd whether meaning what you say and saying what you mean makes a difference or not. It is a universal truth that people who do not keep their word lose the respect of all.

If you truly believe that you've had to settle for lower standards and less respect then I truly feel sorry for you. I really hope you and your H will reach a point where you can restore your standards and respect for each other. If you can never do this, I fear you are condemned to living only a shadow of a marriage that could be. Is this good enough for you? It wouldn't be for me.

I KNOW that I have settled. I'm sorry that this is so hard to hear. I'm sure it will cause a lot of raw nerves. The truth though, is that not only will it never be what it could have..and SHOULD have been..it will never even be what it WAS. I don't feel sorry for myself, it was my choice. Yes, my choice condemns me to living a shadow. It has to be good enough, it is the best offer on the table. As I said before, infidelity removes the option of truly GOOD from the selection of choices. You choose the least bad...the one you think you can carve a reasonable life out of. And then you get to it.

Low </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2B..

I hope that my post answers your Q as well, if not just let me know <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Noodle

<small>[ January 24, 2005, 10:53 PM: Message edited by: noodle ]</small>

Very sad, noodle.

I used to think like this. I used to think that everything was irreparably damaged and I would have to "settle" for a broken life as consequence for my sin.

BUT...I came to realize that I HAVE A CHOICE. I can choose to settle...or not. Of course, I have to consider the world as it is...but I CHOOSE how I will respond it.

Noodle, there was a time when I believed that adulters should be burned at the stake. Yes, I was violating my own standards when I had my affair. But knowing what I know today allows me to view myself with a little more compassion.

Do you think that the fact that I've changed means I've lowered my standards or do you think I've matured as result of my experiences?

Muhammed Ali once was quoted "Any man who thinks the same at 40 as he did when he was 20 is a fool."

Profound, especially coming from a boxer, don't you think?

noodle, I really hope you can let go of the idea that changing your outlook is a bad thing. It's not...it's a part of growing up.

Here's one for you...you used the "jumping off a building" analogy. What if you had been the gifted designer of an unsinkable ship. You said "If this ship sinks, I will never build another". Then, of course, the ship hits an iceberg. Would you lose respect for yourself if you chose to later design a better, safer ship? Is there any shame in admitting that your earlier position had changed?

You said you don't accept anyone in your life that you don't trust.

How do you function in the world at all? Any human you enter into a relationship will, at some point, on some level, break your trust. Perhaps not all to the degree your H did, but they will nonetheless. So, knowing this, do you withdraw from the world entirely, or do you change you position to one where you are willing to "take the chance".

I used to be like this. If someone hurt me, I cut them off. Now, I try to consider their humanity and the value of knowing them in light of what's happened. I haven't compromised my standard. I just deal with it's violation in compassionate way.

You don't have to "settle" noodle...you have CHOICE. Please think about this.

Low