Thanks Suzet. The post on dealing with a spouses withdrawal was very good. I know she is bottling up, but I don't know how, or are maybe too scared, to get her talking.

She did sort of blow up last week. She said some things like 'I can never open my heart to you anymore'. She mas at herself for letting me make her get a phone card. She can't call her friend. She only staying here for the kids. Our realtionship doesn't mean anything to her. My hugs aren't comforting.

I was thinking of asking her 'how are you doing?' every now and then. Just put it out there that I'm here for her and leave it at that. She has a therapist who, IMO, seems pro-seperation. Even so she only sees her every 2 weeks. She's bottling up. Should I try to get her to talk? If so how?

Tonight she's off so she'll be there all night, probably trying to get homework done, but the tension will be there for sure.

Suzet, I am also curious if you thought there was anything wrong with EA? Did you even know anything about an EA? And when in your EA did you feel like you wanted to leave your husband?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Should I try to get her to talk? If so how?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mark, don’t put pressure on your W or try to force her to talk to you if she doesn’t feel ready. However, let her know you are there for her. Continue with a good plan A and no LB’ers. Assure and let your W know that she must feel free to talk to you whenever she needs it of feels like it and try to create and environment & atmosphere that will allow her to feel safe and secure to reveal her innermost feelings to you. As I’ve said on the withdrawal thread, maybe you can start to be honest with her about your innermost thoughts and feelings in a loving and caring way, and in the process encourage her to open up towards you too without the fear that you will Love Burst, criticize or judge her.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Suzet, I am also curious if you thought there was anything wrong with EA? Did you even know anything about an EA?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I didn’t know about EA’s before I discovered this website. However, after my friendship become inappropriate, I did feel very guilty about certain things I kept secret from my H... I was definitely bothered by my conscience but I tried to ignore/supress my conscience. After my friendship became inappropriate, I felt very uneasy about things and I know it was wrong, but at that point I was emotionally very attached to XOM and the pull of the EA was very strong. I didn’t know how to get out of it AND I wasn’t ready to give up on the friendship yet, so I tried to rationalized things in my mind by thinking: “We are just friends because nothing serious happened between us yet”. This was typical ‘fog’ thinking.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>And when in your EA did you feel like you wanted to leave your husband?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I never felt like I wanted to leave my H. Also, I never felt that I no longer loved my H, but for some time during my fog and withdrawal I did feel very confused about my feelings for XOM and I started to question my feelings for my dear H. This was all part of the ‘fog’ and my own lack of knowledge and understanding about the nature of love and the differences between infatuation; “falling” in love and mature love in a M. I didn’t understand how it could be possible to develop such deep “in love” feelings for another man while you still love your own spouse… I thought it couldn’t be possible to have feelings for two persons at the same time. However, I have read and researched a lot on this topic and discovered the following:

People and especially WS’s often confuse real, stable & mature love (which can only be obtained through a long, committed relationship like a M) with the first stages of immature, puppy love when people “fall” in love and when hormones and chemicals are running high… These are 2 completely different types of love (mature & immature) and many people often expect to always have those “in love” feelings for their partner. They think something is wrong with the M if those euphoric feelings wears off… When the WS then get involved with someone else and experience those early stages of love & feelings again, they start to say to their spouses: “I love you, but I’m not in love with you”. I thought the same thing after my EA ended, but I have learned and grown and realized that I was indeed “in love” with my H, but in a more mature way. I have learned there is a difference between “falling” in love and “being” in love: Spouses don’t stop to love each other, but instead, love transforms and develops into something more mature and stable.

<small>[ January 26, 2005, 08:45 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

Mark, may I ask, do you have any ideas or indication from your W what EN this OM was/is filling? If you know are you doing your best to show change in this area? This is a big part of plan A.

Patience is hard for anyone that sees their world crumbling around them but unfortunetly you aren't the one doing the crumbling and while you can do your part to stop it that task really rests with your W at this point.

Should you talk to her you ask? Are you ready for what you will hear? It won't be pretty. Do you fully understand the concepts of the FOG and how and why a WS rewrites history? It is important that you do.

On one of your posts you said something to the effect that maybe they were just friends and you were being delusional, well once again I hate to be the bearer of bad news but you are being delusional if you think what your W's doing is anything short of an EA.

Hang in there and always remember that IT'S A GREAT DAY TO BE ALIVE!!!!!!!!!!

Mr E,
I think it is he makes her feel special, attractive. I'm sure he tells her what she wants to hear, you're a good person. This makes him easy to talk to, he doesn't know the whole story and she can say anything and it cannot be contested.

As for making her feel special I've complemented her on her figure, wardrobe, etc. I tell her she is good at her job and parenting skills. But she hasn't been able to talk to me. One pattern I notice on her cell usage was a call to him right before her therapy. When she left home for therapy I always told her good luck, but since she never shared much that went on in therapy, I don't really know what else to say. She has told me therapy is upsetting to her.

I guess the biggest thing is getting her to feel free to share her feelings with me. Thats hard I know. Think about work, how many times do people complain about their boss to their coworkers. It feels good, but nothing changes. Coworkers are easy to talk to, they say things like 'you're so right he is a jerk', etc. The only productive thing would be to talk to the boss, but how open and free would you be? Besides that it would force you to honestly think about your issue.

Hey Mark -

Sorry you are here but glad you found this website...

Your story and mine are very similar. My story in a nutshell -

1995 - W and I start growing apart
1996 - 2001 - I begin drinking heavily and having an 'affair' with the bottle
2001 - My W begins an EA with an offsite coworker.
10/12/01 - I am given the 'not in love / divorce' talk
11/01 - I go to AA and begin fixing myself while my W's EA continues.
11/01 - 3/02 - I collect evidence of thier relationship and confront her with it...
3/02 - 11/04 - we try and recover the love. It's 1/05 and the mutual love is just now starting to come back...

Mark, first congrats on 7 months sober. Statistics say you are ahead of the game! What are you doing to insure your sobriety and continue fixing yourself? How are you improving yourself?

Plan A is all about becoming a better person. That includes satisfying your W's needs as she lets you. But in the beginning you probably won't get many opportunites.

After about 4 months of my W's EA I stopped caring about collecting the 'evidence'. It was too painful and the pain was a threat to my sobriety. When I found that my W had purchased a phone card to talk to the OM, I called it quits and began making plans to move out. The night before my secret big move, my W locked me in the bedroom and said we were not leaving until I told her what was wrong... IE - Fog talk...She knew what was wrong but did not know that I knew...

If I can answer any questions for you please let me know...

Stay sober - one day at a time...

Gib

minor threadjack... Gibby1, don't know if you will even remember me but many moons ago when I was about as low as I could go you posted to me...only once or twice and right now my pea sized brain couldn't even tell you what you said but I know at the time it was a life saver... you seldom post as I remember you saying and I always wanted to say THANKS!!!

Always remember that IT'S A GREAT DAY TO BE ALIVE!!!!!

Hi Gib,

The secret of my success has been a strong will and determination. Actually temptation for a drink only starts when I'm happy. So I haven't had many temptations. I just started back, after 6 months, with AA to see about this spiritual healing stuff. Shutting my emmotions off for so long has had an effect for sure.

Great to hear your marriage is starting to turn around, but the amount of time is not very comforting. My wife is still under the believe nothing physical nothing wrong. And she close to hates me for messing things up for this guy. Needless to say my confronting his wife caused problems for him. Its like she wants nothing more than to patch up things with them. She is trying so hard to make nice with them.

My son has been invited to his girl's birthday party in Feb. My wife was in disbelief that he would ever be invited. His wife said she'd make sure nothing came between the kids, and my son would be welcome at her house anytime (never took her up on that one). Today I noticed two $5.00 Hallmark cards for a girls birthday (2 cards - he has twins). Whats wrong with that? Plenty - For my birtday my daughter whipped out a computer generated card to cover the wife's butt. The wife didn't buy one for me. She was know for her taste in cards. My oldest daughter's birthday followed mine by a few days - I bought a card, other wise there would have been none. My other daughter also received no card from us for her Jan birtday (I was way to depressed to think). For kid's friends we have always given one of the computer generated ones. So why are these two girls so special?

Mr. E -

Yes I remember! I am glad to have helped in any small way. Your thanks have made my day!!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Gib

MarkNY...

This is my first post... I just found this site yesterday... I really needed it... our stories sound so much alike... I have been married 12 years and have three kids... my wife started hanging out with a younger guy from our church... he became a friend of the family and now they hang out several times a week... About a year ago I started to question their relationship... telling her that I was uncomfortable... and she reacted with passion that they were just friends and we talked it through... she said I was just paranoid and that nothing was going on... he was just a good friend... she too had distanced herself from friends other than him... I struggled with their friendship and noticed that we were growing apart... we saw a counselor a few times and he said the male friend had to go... she then refused and counseling stopped... she tried to be more loving to me for a while and then it went to the same ole stuff... I finally came across a few emails and letter that had questionable stuff in them... of course you could read it two different ways and she always tried to change my mind... and she would get emotional and say I was taking her only friend in the world away... so I would roll over and let it continue... well as of thanksgiving this year she told me that she finally got encouragement from this friend and the guts to come out and tell me that she never loved me from day one... that she liked me... and felt pressure to marry me and that she made the wrong decision... and that she hated her life and the ties to our marriage... and that it has all been an act and she could not continue... so I then told her that I do not believe that for a moment and that I though that she was having an EA... I admit that I have issues and am totally willing to go to couseling... but he was my issue... and she flipped out and told me to back off this idea... that we have had bigger issues than him and that I was only trying to blame it on their relationship... so we became like divorced people living under the same roof... It has been killing me... so I had all these feeling about the EA but was not at all for sure... I had no proof... so I started looking for proof... and found some more emails... and confronted her again and told her it had to stop... and she said that if I took her friend away that she would hate me for life... so I said I would think and pray about it for a few days but while I was doing so... she could not talk to him... so then he sends me a letter telling me that I am doing the one thing that will drive her from the marriage and that he is on my side too... during the few days that they were not talking... she was like a drone... wouldn't even talk to me... trying to make a point that she could not be happy and have an outlet without him... so over the next few days I was watching emails and saw some pretty disturbing emails... things like... he can never take what we have away from us... I stood outside today just to know I was breathing the same air as you and it made me forget all my troubles... and there were words of love for one another...

So I hit the roof... and I was told that the email were because they were pretty much knowing that I was gonna shut things down that those things were out of desperation and that they were saying their goodbyes and that yes they do love each other as brother and sister and in the Lord...

I am at wits end with this stuff and now she is trying to get me to figure out a way to separate and still have the kids live a normal life...

She says that she will live alone and that she would not enter into any relationships again... that she is not cut out for it...

She says that she can live with me but not give herself to me... and how can I ask her to give what she does not have to give...

I cannot believe that this is happening to our family... we are both christians... and I can in no way condone a divorce... so what can I do that does not make her fell pressured or attacked...

I know that this friendship/EA has to stop... but I believe it will drive her to walk out the door...

I guess that I had to get that off my chest... and I hate that I stole you post topic... but I am going crazy as alot of us on this site are so please forgive me...

I just cannot believe that there are so many people out there in the same boat...

I guess that I feel that my situation is a little worse being that she never really loved me...

So how do I answer that question... how can we restore a love that was never truly there... if that is the truth that she is speaking?

I will stop for now...

Sounds exactly like what I am going through. I don't know the answer. I hear I have to be patient. Not many people know about emotional affairs - that could be the big problem. The sterotype is no sex no affair.

Good luck with things and I hope these people are giving sound advice becuase it is influencing me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Great to hear your marriage is starting to turn around, but the amount of time is not very comforting. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm as much (or more) to blame as her about the time. I have held some resentments for her not trying as hard in our M as I have. Very selfish judgements on my part...


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The secret of my success has been a strong will and determination. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I beg to differ...You have drawn the strength from HIS will, not yours. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

This will be VERY hard to appreciate at the stage your relationship is in right now...You control one thing - YOU. The type of father you are, the type of husband you are, the type of man you are. After 6 mos. of my Plan A my W started to feel 'those feelings' again. The problem was that I did not feel the same way anymore. I really was not trying to get her to fall back in love with me. I was trying to do the next right thing in my life, minute by minute, day by day. Remember, she had neglected me for a long time too...

To this day, my W does not see her actions as any form of infidelty. She admitted the relationship was 'slightly' inappropriate, but hated me for referring to it as an emotional affair.

As far as the b-day stuff - let it go....It's just periphial stuff and will only distract you from being a better Mark...

On a side note - Devastatedhubby, welcome to Marriage Builders. Copy and paste your story on a new thread. Ypu will get alot of input after doing that. Also, read all the articles on this site. It will really help you understand...

Gib

Mark - Mr E. popped in here and referred to a past thread. I found it and read his story again to refresh my failing memory... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Here's the link:

Mr. E's Bad Day


Mr. E's story may inspire you...

<small>[ January 26, 2005, 01:06 PM: Message edited by: Gibby1 ]</small>

Gib,

Mr E has been through a lot and to think it appears things ended up working for him. I know things look so bleak now. But the fact is she still lives with me, we share the same bed (when she isn't working nights). A few days are OK but most are full of thick tension. How my kids haven't picked up on it is amazing, or at least they haven't said anything.

I went home for lunch today but she was sleeping from her night shift. I was just going to say 'whats on your mind?' and see if she wanted to talk about anything. Maybe later when the kids go to sleep, we'll see.

Mark,

Don't think for a second your kids haven't noticed the tension. My kids could read me like a book. When I asked them if they noticed anything weird around DDay. They said "Of course we did" I'm sure yours do to, they just aren't saying anything yet.

Good luck and hang in there!

Miker

Thanks for little things.

While leaving for working this morning I gave the Mrs a hug and she hugged back - a little. Thats come a long way from the - hands on my chest and gently push away - hugs of a few weeks ago.

I'll have to admit the EA symtoms fit my wife like a glove. I'm still not sure if I'm believing this because it defines everything she's come up with over the past year. Too many simularities to completely ignor though.

Some how it just seems to easy. Is this the real issue? Sure I had some serious faults, but I've really worked on those and overcame many of them. Not that I'm a perfect person, but all her sisters have remarked about my chage of additude and appearence. Too bad she doesn't talk to them much anymore.

Mark,

I wanted to comment on a couple of things.

Me telling his wife was a big time love buster. I've never scene my wife so furious.

Go read about love busters again. Just because your wife got mad does NOT mean you LB'd. Now, if you had an angry outburst, or disrespectfully judged your wife, THAT would be a LB. But contacting OM's W and revealing the facts is not a LB.

I went home for lunch today but she was sleeping from her night shift. I was just going to say 'whats on your mind?' and see if she wanted to talk about anything. Maybe later when the kids go to sleep, we'll see.

Okay, this is going to sound harsh but your thread is so full of this type of remark that I think you need a bit of a 2x4: Quit badgering the poor woman!

Think about it for a minute. She has someone that she used to confide in "because you didn't understand her." Now that outlet has been taken away, she's in withdrawal and she resents you for "taking away" what she had.

You need to focus on filling her ENs. When you ask her "What's on your mind?" she *knows* you're referring to OM. It's a DJ to her, it feels like you're accusing her, you don't understand, you're all things bad at that point.

Instead, offer to rub her back. Talk about fun things. Share a joke, take a walk. Become her ally, and quit putting her under a microscope.

Thanks for the whack with the 2x4. Even my therapist says 'just let her be' and work on myself and show her the best person I can be.
Last night as I was going to bed I asked her about her courses this semester and she opened up about what her workload looked like. The words just flowed out of her and all I did was have to sit back and listen. Nothing said about relationships, but she just dumped some things that concern her (course work). Later she came upstairs and asked me about going to a bingo thing with the kids next weekend - I accepted enthusiastically.

I am also starting to look at what I did. I accused her of having an affair. To do so I invaded her privacy (hey I'd be a bit upset if someone went through my wallet, cell phone, PC, draws, closets, car, etc and I don't have anything to hide). I told his wife about it and caused big family problems. I did it days before Christmas.

I think she is holding on to hope of rekindling her friendship with him though.

turtlehead...

that reply to mark really helps me out... I have read Plan A and was thinking that whatever I would do would be a love buster... and you little explanation helped me see past that...

I also see that talking about things even though I have a need for it... is best left to be on my wife's terms... within reason... I will try to just be there for her when she is ready...

I am on the path to Plan A and I am trying to gather all that I can...

I am in the process of reading all the EN's...
I just don't know if she will allow me to even try to fill any of her emotional needs... because she thinks that if I do nice things for her that I am just trying to manipulate her...


Thanks again for the comments...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MarkNY:
<strong> I am also starting to look at what I did. I accused her of having an affair. To do so I invaded her privacy (hey I'd be a bit upset if someone went through my wallet, cell phone, PC, draws, closets, car, etc and I don't have anything to hide). I told his wife about it and caused big family problems. I did it days before Christmas.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And you did exactly as you should have done.

Do not think for one second that what you did was wrong or invading her privacy. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Instead, you revealed her secrecy. This was absolutely necessary.

DO NOT fall into her trap of blaming you for her secrets. You freed her from them.

OK?

WAT

Latest news:

Tonight the wife pulls me aside and she is so pissed off. Seems my daughter needs something noterized. Well OM's wife does that. My wife called her and asked if she would do it. My wife got a call back from OM saying his wife is furious that my wife would even ask such a thing. She doesn't want her anywhere near her house, etc.

Now my wife is starting with the 'I don't have anymore friends' stuff again.

Just when I though things were getting a bit better.