I just don't know how those who don't have God to lean on are able to do this. It does happen, I suppose, but I really don't know how I would have survived without Him.

I agree...

But it is that much harder for you to swallow when your christian wife is out in harms way and she doesn't even care...

She has been the stronger spiritual person till this point in our lives...

I guess this is my wake up call to rise up and lead...

I can only hope that I heeded his warning fast enough...

Mark,

How is it going? Are you still with us?

Hi, still here. Things are down right rotten. She doesn't miss an oprotunity to put a jab in. Her new thing is saying 'fine' when asked how her day was, etc. This morning I chatted a bit about how I knew thangs aren't fine. I told her I love her and hate seeing her this way. What she voiced was her want to talk with OM's wife. She found out 2 weeks ago OM's wife hates her.

Well this morning I got the words I never wanted to hear 'I hate you!' That hurt.

Now she quit her job, night shift was getting to her. She has some work lined up, but we'll be reduced in cincome substaincially. In other words we are now both trapped. So much for the option of her moving out. We can't support an apartment and a house and a family on our income now.

I hope all this stuff is right about 'fog' and things get better. Its closing in on 2 months of hell right now. This week I find myself crying and have a pain in my stomach. I'm starting to dread going home. Also PMS is starting, by my calculations this will make things worse for at least another week.

Death is starting to look good to me.

Mark,

Thanks for checking in. So sorry that this is hurting you. I'm sure that your feelings are very raw right now and even little slights hurt a lot. That's how I was also but it will get better. You will toughen up and not take evrything to heart. It just takes time for you to adjust to this new 'lifestyle'.

The "I hate you" I know hurts but if you can look at it the way it is it may take some of the sting out of it. It's really an angry child saying those words. I don't know if you ever told one of your parents that you hated them; if you did, then at the time that probably is how you felt, but the next day you didn't feel that way. So much of what she is feeling right now is like that. It's only temporary feelings. When she feels pain she may lash out and you just happen to be there.

So is all of this bad mood just continuous or are you seeing anything good at all?

If you read about basic concept #8 The Three States of Mind in Marriage it sounds at least like you two are in conflict state rather than withdrawl state, so that is good. It's very slow going to return to intimacy state but you can do it.

I know this is a lot on your plate but make sure you are studying MB concepts and working your Plan A. The more you understand the more confidence you will have in dealing with it. Yes, the fog is for real. Someone should create a new reality show - "Don't Wayward Spouses Say The Darndest Things?" - only it would get old real quick because they all say the same things.

It's ok trying to initiate conversation with her but if it's not working don't keep it up. Try to find things that do work; try to find ways to sneak deposits into Love Bank without her knowing.

Some people say that WWs are really two people, the WW that you see mostly and the loving W that is hiding and peeks through now and then. Look for your W peeking through and give her a little wave if you see her.

Keep us posted.

Hey Mark...

Rotten is a good word for this junk:-)

One word answers...

Always looking the other way when in the car...

No communication unless it is about the kids... after they are in bed... the silence begins... our nightmares start coming to life...

The "I Hate You" stings doesn't it...

I think that we are both hanging our hopes in this MB system... I say that if they are wrong we turn this site upside down:-)

Just kidding of course....

We will just keep coming here for our sanity until they either come back to their senses or jump ship on us...

Just know that we can make life better than it is now with either outcome... and we can say we did our best!

Hang in there...


P.S. At least some people care about you... you must rate well... I have a few unanswered posts... I must be slipping to old hat status... J/K hehe :-)

DH,

I'm kind of pinning my hopes on this stuff too. It give me hope at least. I don't know if she'll jump ship, but I'm starting to doubt whether I want her aboard either. Unfortunately running a family is demanding on both of us. One just couldn't cut it.

I know I have to get doing things, force myself to. I have to work even though I'd rather lock myself in a room. It's very hard, I thought I had problems back in July - that looks like paradise right now, at least we talked then.

Someone stop the pain. You know whats funny about this. I get the feeling if a woman was nice and caring towrads me right now I'd be a WS. I actually need a nice hug from a warm caring adult.

I hear ya...

I keep having people tell us we have the perfect family... or your wife sure doesn't look like she had her 3rd kid 8mo ago... and I want to kill them... it makes me want to cry everytime...

Thanks for unknowingly slaping me in the face... and reminding me that I have a beautiful 30 yr old wife in the prime of her life... and looks better to me than ever... and that I can't even touch her... I want to go vomit now...

Go get you one of those hugs... but get it from your Momma if the person has to have BooBs... Otherwise you might start wondering down the same path your WW is ;-)

Sorry maybe that was not funny... oh well!

Can't be any worse can it?

Chat at you later!

DH,

I can't get that hug for mommy anymore. I was alluding to me becoming a WH. I can see how easy it could happen. I'm not looking to do that, for that would be the death nail to my marriage. Then again maybe my marriage is already dead. See there I go justifying it. This is scary.

All,
A little good news. Yestday in the AM my wife gave me an 'I hate you'. The first time she ever voiced those words to me. It hurt, but somehow I knew it was said in anger only meant to hurt me. But these things still cut. Last night as she was leaving for work she said she was sorry for the morning. It gave me a warm feeling. When she called this morning to say bye to the kids (she works nights) I told her the appology made me feel good. She started to qualify it by saying she only said it about the maliciousness but that is pretty much how she feels. I cut off by saying I understand and we ended the call. Hey I'm sure the "I'm sorry" took a lot for her to say and I wasn't going to let it go unrecognized, I also wasn't going to let her retract it by talking too much about it. Just a quick "I liked it" and move on.

I don't know if that fits in MB plans, but I felt in my heart I had to do that. Does that fall under encourage good behaviour?

Mark -

How goes the sobriety?

Are you working the steps? Doing both will make you a better person and more attractive to your W...

Gib

Gibby,

I went to my first step meeting last night. I still lack a sponsor out of a reluctance to speak up. Hopefully Monday I'll solve that issue.

Soberiety has been good. Haven't had a drink since July 11 and honestly don't miss it. Well sometimes - it seems when I'm having a good time I find it somewhat tempting. I found more energy, patience, etc. I was attending group meetings at a professional rehab center, put they were concentrating on daily soberiety as opposed to the long term issues. I agree the 12 step approach may be best. If it doesn't make me more atractive to her at least I've maybe made some friends and will be a better person for my children.

I think the exposure of wifes EA did more harm than good. I think I was 'winning' her back slowly. I just couldn't stand knowing they were still talking as much as they did. That and their timing drove me crazy. My spying did me in. After all even if she wanted to run away with him I can't stop here. Now I see myself as some mean parent you told his kid he can't hang out with his best friend anymore. Exposure was a spur of the moment thing on my part. There was OM's wife - we had time to kill - I talked - too much. What I feared would happen happened.

Mark -

My W was pissed at me for 6 mos after I exposed her EA. She could not, would not, and still does not see it as an issue of infidelity. You and I know better.

At the time I saw it as a mistake too. The long term result of exposure FAR outweighs what you are going through now. If you guys recover your M, then the precedent is set that this is not acceptable behavior. You can't understand how important this will become in the future.

It's sooooo easy for them to fall back in the trap without making the consequences of thier actions clear. Your mutual pain will reinforce the avoidance of bad behavior. OK - now I sound like JL the scientist... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Congrats on the sobriety and starting your 12 steps. Choosing a sponsor can be easy. I always gravitated towards the old gruf guys who wouldn't let me squirm out of a tough assignment!

So few have been able to make it as far as you already have! You know you are getting help from a higher power, right?

God Bless, and good luck!

Gib

The big if is recovering the marriage. She can't stand me being in the same room or something like that. She doesn't see how she'll ever like me again. I have to say it doesn't look good, but I'm hopefull. Maybe I am keeping our marriage alive and don't even see it. But this draining. taking all these insults and not getting dragged into arguments.

So how did your wife come around? Six months is a long time, but I'm 1/3 the way there. How long ago was that and are things where you want them now?

My wife's getting worse these last few days, even slapped and shoved our 12 year old daughter last night. What was her offense? Putting something in the dishwashed wrong. It started with my wife shouting and escalated from there. Its also getting near that time of the month again - last month was very rough. Even then its a week or so more to go.

But even when thats said in anger she doesn't say never. She never says the word divorce - she said seperate. Not that it's good thing, but she stops short of walking out. She makes many excuses why not - the kids, no place to go, etc. I don't expect to go home to an empty house anytime soon. I gues thats a good thing.

Rumors!
I was picking up my daughter from Saturday band practice and heard some gossip. I was talking with 2 of the dads while we were waiting for our kids. The OM came up in there converstaion. One of the guys said "Oh that's the sleez ball that hits on all the mothers". I asked him to elaborate and pretty much just repeated it. His wife knows moe deatails about this sleeze ball. I'll have to ask her.

I know this is just info and won't help me any, other than making me feel better that I'm not holding all the blame. My wife doesn;t want to haer though - she thinks he's great.

I pray I can keep myself through my wifes withdrawal. Then I hope we can keep the marriage alive. One would think she would be kissing my butt right now. But no - I'm the king of evil. I can't ever see things being normal again.

I'm trying to hold on. I try to keep conversation light and brief. We honestly don't converse. If I say 'bless you' when she sneezes she doesn't even say thank you. When does it get better? I wish I knew. I don't feel I can relax in my own home.

She turns it on and off. She can be giving me the nasty remarks or ignoring me with an evil look and then the phone rings and she sweet as can be. I company comes over I'm again called 'hun'.

Can't figure this out.

Well anyway I'm taking the chance and bought her a dozen roses for Valantines Day. They're from the heart. Even though she said to not buy her anything I did anyway. She'll see them when she walks in tomorrow morning from work. We'll all be gone. I also got a small box of chocolates and a non-wordy card. I'm not expecting her to run into my arms, but just to let her know I still love her.

Mark -

I'm sorry things are rough right now for you....

I think it's a good thing you are getting her roses today. She may not acknowledge any appreciation for them, but I'll bet ya $100 she remembers them for a long time.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

You asked me some questions in a previous post. Let me see if I can answer them for you.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So how did your wife come around? Six months is a long time, but I'm 1/3 the way there. How long ago was that and are things where you want them now?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">For me, this all happened from 8/2001 to 5/2002. Looking back I think my W starting caring about me again when I stopped trying so hard to improve us...

I changed my focus to improving me. That may sound a little selfish but I think that it is a huge part of Plan A. Making yourself a better, more confident man and showing that you will do very well with or without your M can be a very attractive thing to your W. BUT, you fulfill her EN's when given the opportunity. It's just right now she will not let you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> .

Here are some of the things I did to improve me...

1. I sobered up
2. I quit smoking
3. Worked out and lost 50 lbs.
4. Changed my clothing style
5. Rekindled my passion for golf
6. Rarely talked relationship with my W
7. Periodically I would plan a movie, dinner, time with my boys, etc. and invite her to join me.

Mark, I did this in a 6 to 8 month time frame. Let me add that we did not have SF for that time <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> .

It's very difficult, it's not fair, it sucks. But you know what? I'm a helluva lot better person because of it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

Are things the way I want them? No. Why? Probably because I am a conflict avoider and am waiting for my W to change some things herself. She has been working at them recently... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Just last night we talked about where we wanted to go for our 25th anniversary in 2006. Our M gets a little better each week. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

A common theme amoung 'happier' oldtimers on this board is that they significantly improved the person they were. The ones that saved thier M understand what it takes to have a happy marriage. The ones that divorced know what it will take the next time.

For me 12 stepping, working out, and golf made me happy and confident again. That was my formula. Hope this helps...

God Bless...

Gib

I guess she wants me to look in her PC. I found this note. Please - someone comment on it!

This entry comes after my initial attempt to explain things to you. Consider it my journal to you. The thoughts and ideas will be what I am thinking about at a particular time, so they may not make sense to you. If you open this up before I try to put this all together to make some kind of sense to you, read at your own risk. I am sick and tired of you misinterpreting my thoughts and needs and taking things into your own hands. You have made nothing better, only worse. When I am ready to really review these things with you, I will do that at that time. Please let me know that you read it, though. It may make some things easier for me.
I know that we are not communicating things face-to-face; I really am never in the mood to confront you, especially these days. My anger is too great and I really don’t know if I will ever get over this, whatever it is. I feel violated, embarrassed and very hurt by your actions. I understand that you were hurt at the time, but rather than trying to understand me, you took matters into your own hands. I cannot seem to forgive you for that, and maybe that is just more reason for me to question my love for you in this marriage. I am sorry, but this last event became the one that broke the last straw for me. Really, I understand your concern, but you did not trust me enough to handle things on my own and just let things be. I know you felt threatened, but I still cannot forgive you for your actions. I know you have a lot to say and if you eventually let things out, you will not be nice about it and I don’t think that I am strong enough to deal with you. I know that I will break down, and not for the better. I am barely keeping things together right now for the sake of the kids. I cannot tell you how much I really want to just leave and take my children with me. Rationally, I know that would hurt you and I don’t have that plan in place right now, but I do feel trapped and stuck in a loveless marriage and it may sound childish to you, but that is not fair to me. Do I really have to stay for the sake of the kids or can I go and not regret that decision. What will I do and where will I go? The questions are always there. Do you remember your parent’s 50th Anniversary? I thought about us then, too. I do not want to be that sad when I get that old and feel that alone. I already feel alone in this world, what will it feel like when I am 70? That is too painful for me to think about!
I have always said that you are a great father. That has never been a question. But I have said for a very long time (When I was still Part-time at [Employer], if you need to know when approximately) that you make a lousy husband. That is the part that I just cannot tolerate anymore. I thought that I could change you after we married, but you made it not so. After so many years of trying, and expecting you to do better because I asked you to and you supposedly loved me, I got tired of waiting. I think at some point in time, I just snapped and had enough. When? I don’t know, but just like everything else, it did not happen overnight. You can try to change now all that you want. It does not impress me. It does not excite me. I believe it is a little too little, a little too late. Another reason for me to question my love for you: If I loved you than I would want to make this work, right? I really think that reflecting on my life so many years ago and going back to school, questioning my career, all these things added to my questioning of you and me. But, I am wrong about one thing, it is not YOU with the problem, it is US. You, however, will never be the man I want you to be and that is my own disappointment. I needed the time to sort through a lot of these things and asked for space that you did not give me. The space I needed was to allow me to think and be left alone, to find that escape I needed to sort things out. You did not understand me then and I do not think that you ever will. Your behavior lately has determined that for me, and so we remain distant.

<small>[ February 14, 2005, 09:01 AM: Message edited by: MarkNY ]</small>

I cannot believe it mark...

I think our wives are the same person...

How can this be...

Mark - quit kicking yourself for the exposure. They're all PO'd about it and they all shift the blame to the BS. Normal WS-speak. So quit the pity party and stand tall and don't let her convince you that exposing her bad behavior was somehow bad behavior on your part.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by devastatedhubby:
<strong> I cannot believe it mark...

I think our wives are the same person...

How can this be... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">IT'S BECAUSE THEY'VE BEEN ABDUCTED BY THE VERY SAME ALIENS!!

You guys have got to stop taking this so personally. Yea, we know it's hard, but think about it - is ANYTHING they're saying rational? How can it possibly be all your fault? It can't!!

Grin and bear it and write off all they say as coming form the WS script.

Mark - that drivel your wife wrote could have been written by most female WSs. She could be sued for copywrite infrigement!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> (Or is it copyright?)

Suck it up and keep your chin up. Until you can look past this crap, she's winning. She HAS NO IDEA that she sounds just like all the rest, but you do! Take advantage of your knowledge!!!

WAT

WAT,

Knowing that this is to be expected is of some comfort. But the threat is extremely real she will leave and for good. I think any marriage counselor would write our marriage off as D.O.A. right now.

So where exactly is this "WS script?" I want to know what are her next lines.

Right now I'm waiting for her anger to subside or her to initiate any talk. I hope thats the right thing.