I'd be interested in finding out how many of us believe that our marriage is or could be better than ever after the affair.

Please bear in mind...we ALL know it will be DIFFERENT.

Low

Interesting idea, curious to see the results.

Low,

I'm in agreement with Dr Harley on this one.

I believe that application of the principles he lays out will improve a marriage.

I believe that a bad marriage can be good and a good one better.

I also agree though..that when infidelity is in the equation that the marriage will NEVER be what it COULD have been had it not.

The infidelity was in NO WAY helpfull to the marriage..only destruction. The principles are what makes the positive changes.

So basically..you can have a GOOD marriage post A..but no matter how hard you try, you will always fly coach. It will always be second class. You might like coach just fine, but the same principles applied to a non A affected marriage will give a first class marriage with the same effort.

Damage is damage. It's real, it's lasting. What could have been is irretrievable.

So with that in mind..I'm not sure how to vote..because the choices do not take my belief into consideration. Answering either way gives a false statement from me.

Noodle

I'm almost 3 years post D-Day (wow, who would 'a' thunk it?!)

I'd have to agree that an A does HORRIBLE damage to an M.
OTOH I don't know that I would have ever fully appreciated my H like I do now - warts and all, through good and bad. I am thankful for him EVERY SINGLE DAY now.

It's like electricity - you flip on a light, you heat dinner, you turn on the heat or air conditioning, you run a hot bath. Yeah, it's nice. So what?

Then you do without due to a hurricane or ice storm or whatever.

NOW you really appreciate it, every time something electric "just works".

My M is kind of like that, only much more so.

LowOrbit,

In response to noodle's post, which I agree with, I was reminded of an exchange I had with lemonman. We were talking about the effort that a WS needed to put into the repair of the M. My feelings, echoed by lemon, were that if the WS put in 10% of the effort that was utilized in the A, the M not only would be saved, it could flourish.

Just my thoughts

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So basically..you can have a GOOD marriage post A..but no matter how hard you try, you will always fly coach. It will always be second class. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I suppose this does illustrate a difference between us.

I cannot believe that any of what you have said is true for me. Perhaps you choose to seek satisfaction in flying coach. From this point forward, my wife and I both fly first class...or we don't fly.

Life is far too short to waste it "settling"

If it had been or is, then my only LOGICAL course of action would have been to leave my wife and attempt to build a new first class life with the OW.

Unless of course, all second marriages have to fly coach as well...

I'm not trying to be obtuse, noodle, but I refuse to accept your "truth" in my life. It does bother me a bit because somewhere inside me I will always carry that seed of fear that my wife may feel like you.

I can surely say that if this were in fact true of my wife, there would be no future for us. I know I have lots of options, choices, and opportunities. So does she. We have no reason to EVER settle.

I refuse to settle. I hope my wife does too.

You know, I think I can help you understand the feeling this raises in me...

Do you ever wonder if your H gave up the OW and just settled for you? What if that were true...

Low

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> In response to noodle's post, which I agree with, I was reminded of an exchange I had with lemonman. We were talking about the effort that a WS needed to put into the repair of the M. My feelings, echoed by lemon, were that if the WS put in 10% of the effort that was utilized in the A, the M not only would be saved, it could flourish.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But, based on what you've written, you do NOT agree with noodle as she asserts that the marriage is fundamentally and irretrievable broken.

You allow for the possibility that dedicated spouses could make their marriage flourish.

That's what I'm talking about. As a FWS, I have put far more energy into rebuilding my marriage than ever put into the affair.

I have read of your situation and I'm sorry that your WW has chosen not to. Obviously, rebuilding a marriage cannot be done by one spouse alone.

Low

Low - I answered as if I was still married.

As I'm sure you understand, you do not have a representative population here. Seems that most BSs/WSs wouldn't be on this forum if they didn't have hope that their marriage would be better assuming recovery was achieved.

The diminished/damaged question is thought provoking, however. A far from perfect marriage may still be less than perfect after recovery. Seems that to me the memory of the hurt dished out and the pain received - by both parties - will either amaze and bind a couple that came through it or convict them to perpetual paranoia. I submit that the latter does not represent recovery.

But who am I to know? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

WAT

Low,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But, based on what you've written, you do NOT agree with noodle as she asserts that the marriage is fundamentally and irretrievable broken </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">From what I read of your posts , I feel that we are possibly dealing in semantics. Do you not feel that any M that emerges post A is a new, separate, and independent of the the previous M? By that definition, yes it is irretrieviably broken and gone forever.

WOW, is all I can say.

Noodle have you discussed this with your husband?

I am sitting here with tears running down my face at the very thought that my husband (FWW) "settled for me", believes that our marriage can NEVER be what it could have been before the affair (I don't want that back).

i do agree that damage is damage, and to a certain degree yes lasting, but that isn't always a bad thing, at least I don't think so.

I think it sucks that it takes something like an affair to "wake-up" a relationship, but I believe you make out of it what you want. If you believe that fly coach the rest of your life is okay for you, then hey that's your choice. But I prefer to put that extra effort into it and bump us up to first class.

Low,

How I wish this were just a poor perspective issue.

It comes straight from "the man" himself..and if I am not mistaken..is even quoted on this website.

To answer your Qs

No, I don't think you are being obtuse..but I do think that because the damage was caused by you [and I'm sure that you have struggles aplenty because of this] but you were not betrayed yourself..then it is probably difficult for you to process what precisely the damage is and just why it is so lasting.

My H thinks things are just GREAT as well. He probably feels first class as well.

He doesn't have visions and movies and nightmares about me having sex with someone else and know that it's all true.

He does not search my face looking for clues of truthfullness in vain. Looking for a rule of measure.

He is able to trust me implicitly, his innocence has NOT been destroyed..suprisingly enough. The wound is not his, you see?

He would not react as I would to a period of odd behavior..or a late return..or any of the random events that sit on the border between neutral and suspicious.


How would I react? Basically..I come unhinged . Internally of course. There is a cartoon version of me sh*tting herself and trying to run four directions at once while pulling her skin off and then fainting every single time I can't connect the dots fast enough.

When things are going well I wonder if I am being set up and buttered up for more deceit..it slides in easier if you are soft and open, you know?

Overly attentive..what are you trying to distract me from?!

Not attentive enough..withdrawing <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ?!

There is no win..and the worst of it is..that NONE of these reactions were over the limit..in fact they were too late in coming.

Do I wonder if he settled for me, and would have preferred her?

Well, in this one instance..I am absolutely certain that he did not.

It was a drunken ONS with someone whose last name he didn't catch.

He didn't have an addiction to her..he had an addiction to the party. The party was what had to be eliminated. The low behavior.

I think you have mentioned that you and your W have no children..is this correct?

Makles a big difference, you know..tips the scales decisively in favor of the wandersome one.

In my case, a second marriage would be without a doubt second class at best. For a variety of reasons. You and your W are relatively free to move on..albeit with baggage..but you will not have to make the concessions that a divorce which includes children can not avoid.

The children are not THE reason..but they are a large contribution, for a multitude of other reasons.

I'm not sure what argument you have with My truth as I understand it..aside from that you just don't like it, and don't like the implications it could have on your marriage and your future.

Maybe you could expand a little?

Noodle

Originally posted by WAT:

Seems that to me the memory of the hurt dished out and the pain received - by both parties - will either amaze and bind a couple that came through it or convict them to perpetual paranoia. I submit that the latter does not represent recovery.

WAT, I LOVE the way you phrased that!! Very insightful! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Low, I voted on the first question as someone beyond the HOPING phase, we are both secure in the KNOWLEDGE and the joy of our marriage being much more than we ever hoped for. Amazement...absolutely, and bound together by successfully sharing a recovery experience that by all odds should have failed. Amazing, yep! KB

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I also agree though..that when infidelity is in the equation that the marriage will NEVER be what it COULD have been had it not.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Remove "infidelity" and insert illness, injury, loss of job, new baby, etc; etc. What could have been is unforeseeable therefore you don't know if what could have been, would be any better or worse.

It's obvious that the marriage pre-affair was not first-class to begin with. Whether it may have become first-class or remained coach or even ended in divorce is unforeseeable.

I agree that the affair doesn't benefit the marriage in anyway but it will alter the course of the marriage for better or worse.

Many BS/WS have discovered this website as a result of the affair. The website is full of information and resources that can help them overcome the affair and recover their marraige. They may actually be better equipped post-affair with the knowledge to build a solid first-class marriage rather than settle for coach.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What could have been is irretrievable.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No one wants an affair to come into their marriage but, I'm not so sure they would want to retrieve the "what could have been" from the quality of a marriage they had pre-affair either.

Starfish posted this on ky's thread: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Nothing my H could do to me...will vanquish my own spirit or prevent me from becoming exactly who I want to be. He doesn't have that power....and he never had in the first place. There are those of us who meet adversity...and become LESS. There of those of us who trudge along in spite of adversity. And there are those of us who become MORE because of adversity.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We cannot predict the unforeseeable future but, we have all the power and control to direct it down the paths that we choose.

KB, my little cut and paste for use after your posts is all ready to be used yet again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

You know the one that says, I wish I'd said that and how'd you get so smart. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Noodle, the more I think about it the more I think that a drunken ONS is harder to get over for the BS than a long term A like mine was. I don't think my H could have forgiven that either. That isn't meant to sound fatuous - I'm well aware of the damage I've done.

Jen

Kiwi,
Could you flesh that out a little?

I haven't got a position on this one..I know that there are differences in the two..but what makes you think a drunken ONS is more difficult?

Noodle

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> No one wants an affair to come into their marriage but, I'm not so sure they would want to retrieve the "what could have been" from the quality of a marriage they had pre-affair either.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Excellent point. Kinda goes along with what Cymanca said earlier about the the post-A marriage being something new altogether.

I would never have agreed to return to the marriage as it was. I'm glad we put it out of its misery and started anew.

Low

This is going to sound absolutely ridiculous but a drunken ONS is so disrespectful, it's "forgetting" you're married, it's the "if it feels good, do it" mentality.

A long term A usually sneaks up from behind. People don't wake up in the morning and think "gosh, I think I'll have an A today and ruin my marriage." In most cases there is a semblance of friendship before things turn from an EA to a PA.

Does that make any sense?

Jen

OK. I agree with that.

So, what if your pre A marriage was dandy..had every promise of being "first class" until the A, and now..it is less than with zero potential to ever be..although it's still "good".

How about in that instance?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by KiwiJ.:
<strong> Noodle, the more I think about it the more I think that a drunken ONS is harder to get over for the BS than a long term A like mine was. Jen </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This made me really stop and think...actually this whole thread did, but this in particular.

8 1/2 years ago, while deployed, my STBXH had ONS. This A has been long term and involved a lot of feelings.

I'm trying to think if one was harder to accept...or would have been harder to get over if we got that far.

I couldn't stand the ONS because I just kept thinking, "How could you throw everything away for a night with someone who's name you don't even remember?" It hurt terribly to feel that disposable. That was the hardest part to get over for me. Then, over the next year, every time he was 5 minutes late I wondered if he was up to something. He'd already proven he could throw it all away over nothing. Would he do it again? The paranoia was horrible. In fact, we never really dealt with it. Just got to the point that I could deal with it and moved on without looking into anything else.

This time, it's different. Sometimes I wish he had just had a ONS and I never knew about it. Stupid wish, yes. But one that pops its head up. It hurts so much to know that your husband is telling someone else he loves them and that she is getting the tenderness and consideration that I used to get. OUCH. But, I can reason it out more too. I can get behind the situation and pull out the reasons and see the steps. I couldn't do that with the ONS. It was just careless.

I'm not saying a long term A isn't careless. But I can reason it out more. For a person like me who dissects every action, that's important.

In the end though, I'd have to say they are both devestating. Each one has it's own difficulty. I don't know that one would be more difficult to deal with, for me anyway.

The hurdles are just different and placed along the track at different places.

As to the original question, I think a marriage can fully heal and go forward even better. Forever changed, yes. But I think it can be better than it could have been without the A also.

How many people choose to just coast along without making positive changes in their marriage? Just because an A doesn't happen, doesn't mean the marriage is any more fullfilling than one in which an A happens and the partners fully recover and rebuild.

Now, I'm not suggesting that people have an A to make their marriage better. BUT I think sometimes, if you both have the will to make it happen, you can have something better than you may have ever had without that wake up call.

Should've written the poll a little differently.

As WAT pointed out, it was intended for those whose marriages stayed together.

I find myself curious about HOW the BS/WS would've answered.

It's interesting that at least 4 respondents answered yes to both questions.

Low