OK - you're doing good.

EVERYTHING you describe about her reactions to your attempts to communicate, counseling, etc. is pure text book affair dialogue. She doesn't want to talk about it to you or to a counselor becuase she doesn't want to confront her actions. She has painted over all the mirrors in her life (for the moment) and does not want to see. She is more confused than you are.

What exactly did you tell the pastor? If he did not dismiss you right off the bat, good. He has to be told his son is involved.

The advice about making things worse is right on. Thankfully, you have found this site. Follow the guidance here and you will likely not make things worse. This doesn't mean you don't need specific counseling - you do. The danger though with that is that many, many counselors can't find their butts with either hand. Further, a Pastor doesn't a counselor make. So, shop around for a REAL counselor that is pro-marriage. You cannot go wrong with one of the MB counselors. But I predict what you can gleen from this site and this forum will line up with what a good counselor will tell you.

WAT

<small>[ January 27, 2005, 09:24 AM: Message edited by: worthatry ]</small>

Your list looks full enough for me. I am amazed at how you describe your wife's actions and words. They sound so familiar to me.

At this point all I can tell you is that my situation has gotten better and alot of the things you are describing are in my past, even so some of your issues are still in my linear vision. Those unresolved issues I am leaving alone with the faith that they will work themselves out when they are supposed to.

Just focus on yourself and give your wife some room to digest the new you as it develops.

Good luck!

Hubby -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by greergan:
<strong>I am amazed at how you describe your wife's actions and words. They sound so familiar to me.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">See?

This is why it's all plain as day to us.

One very important point I forgot to make above - time is on your side. Do not be in a hurry. This is one of the ways you can make everything worse - by rushing the process. An affair that does not immediately crumble upon being exposed has to run its course on its own time scale. You cannot change this. Take advantage of this affair fact by forgetting all sense of urgency - other than exposure. Take advantage of the time by thinking through everything you do before you do it. Bounce it off this forum. When in doubt, take no action (other than exposure) - there will be time later.

I have a theory that the most effectively implemented MB Plan A and B is performed by procrastinators. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

WAT

DH, I almost forgot the most important book of all, for people like you and me, whose Affair Partners are "just friends."

A bulleted list that you seek can be found in the book "NOT Just Friends" by Shirley Glass. What she talks about is that a wall has been erected between you and your WW, and a window of intimacy has been opened between her and OM. To repair your M, the window of intimacy must be closed and sealed over with OM (No Contact), in order for you and WW to break down the wall between you in your M, and re-establish your intimacy.

Another sign is that she probably protects the OM to you, and doesn't protect you at all any more.

Please understand that her feelings, IMVHO, are not gone for you. They are buried, just as my FWH's were for me. He thought they were gone, but they were just buried under shame, guilt, rationalization, justification.

My FWH went to counseling with me for the sole purpose of making the D go smoother. He wouldn't even call it MC! He called it "group" counseling. Yeah, me and him, a big group. He bristled at any notion that we would be rebuilding our M. He got frustrated that I held onto my hope, as he told me not to. It is funny, for all the accusations they send out about the BS trying to control them, they are trying to control US. Trying to make us believe that the M is not worth anything, never was.

If you believe your M was at one time great, and mutually satisfying, then please continue to believe in yourself, in your M. Right now, the only chance your M might have is you believing, having faith.

One thing that your WW might listen to at this point, is your honest self-inventory of how you contributed to the state of the M before the A. Dr. Harley says that A's can happen in healthy happy M's, but my experience here is that most are vulnerable on some level. I know mine was, and I didn't see it until after the A happened. I think we get into patterns, subconcious things that are destructive to our M.

Another thing, I would agree with her that you don't want that old M back. That old M is dead. A new one must be built. Express to her that you want a new, better M, one in which you both can flourish and grow and be happy and feel safe. I encourage you to get not just A books, but relationship books, as well. Just understanding the differences between men and women in general, and communication styles, is amazing.

Keep posting. You will learn more here than you can even contemplate right now. About M's, relationships, and most important, about YOU.

Spidey

I have been reading and posting all morning... I have a few questions...

should I take action on Plan A now... do I give her info on EA's and what they are... Do I talk to her about why I think it is an EA...

Do I tell her about this site... and have her read the articles...

Am I entitled to an answer from her ... if she will try to make this marriage work before I invest into these steps...


I guess I have read alot of stuff... and am unsure as to what steps come first... and how I can even work on things for us when she is not even receptive of things from me...


I am sorry if thise seams like a not so well thought out post... I would rather be not so sorted out her... than when I talk to my wife...

thanks again

DH, please do NOT try and educate your WW on her actions. Please do NOT tell her about this site yet. You need a place to come, for a while, and make a plan, ask questions, and yes . . . vent. We have often experienced it to be counter-productive (at the very least) to have a BS and WS here when they do not have common goals (ie, working on the M, intention to save the M).

What I would start with, is an HONEST, humble list for YOURself, YOUR responsibility for the state of the M before the A. You are NO responsibility for her having the A. That is not what I am saying. Take honest stock of where you can improve, what you expect from yourself in those areas, and maybe make a plan as to how to get there (ie, reading books, reading here and asking questions, perhaps making an appointment with a counselor (IC) for yourself).

The concept here is that you can only control YOU. YOU can change. YOU can work on the M. YOU can educate yourself and learn about relationships. In this way, you can lead by example. "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink."

Through your ACTIONS, you can show your WW you are aware her needs were not being met. Through your ACTIONS, you can show your WW how you intend to learn of her needs, how you intend to become a better H, a better man.

Let her see you reading relationship books. Let her see you working on you. Let her see your faith and belief in what you had, what you still have, and let her see through you what your M CAN BE when it is worked on actively.

Go to the bookstore and buy books and start reading. They all have a common theme, the A books, and your next moves will become clear. Also read on the MB site about the Giver and the Taker. You are going to have to be the Giver for a while, her Taker is out full force with you right now. You might have to commit to giving for a period of time, with no expectation of return giving (plan A).

I found it helped to view my FWH as an addict, who couldn't help himself ~ because he really was NOT himself. But just like an addict, you cannot "teach" them. Only once they have gotten part way through the withdrawal of the drug, can they understand they are addicted. Right now, she doesn't see anything wrong with what she is doing. She will see you trying to educate her as manipulation, control, and will make her very defensive to learning the concepts. Because one day, she might be open to the concepts. You don't want her hearing about them in her current state of mind, IMO.

Hang in there! You are doing great! Slow and steady wins the race. You won't get any answers right now, and if you press for one, you will most likely receive one you don't like. The nature of this A business is that you will want to kind of cling to her/your M, and she will want to distance from you/your M. It isn't right, it isn't wrong, it just happens that way. You will learn here to break that cycle. If the cycle is not broken, your neediness/clinginess/needing to "know," and her distance/anger/resentment ~ your M could be destroyed before it has a chance to be saved.

Keep posting. Get to the bookstore with a list. It will help you feel more proactive, and give you something very productive to do with your brain.

Spidey

ditto Spidey

One aspect you should attempt to determine from her is what needs she has that you were not providing.

Note: this does NOT mean that any needs you may not have been providing are marriage showstoppers. She will exaggerate things and make mountains out of molehills, so take all such responses with a grain of salt. For example, and I swear I am not makng this up, one complaint heard by a BS (either K or Chris123 - I can never remember which one) was that he always bought Coke and never Pepsi. Nontheless, start buying Pepsi. Negate all the excuses/complaints. The more ridiculous the complaints, the better off you are. Understand?

For what it's worth, here's my canned description of Plan A: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The way I understand Plan A, it's based on two premises that must be accepted for "garden variety" affairs:

1. The BS cannot end the affair.

2. The affair developed, to some extent great or small, due to a poor marital environment which the BS, to some extent great or small, contributed to.

If a BS cannot accept these two statements as givens, they will not be able to implement Plan A.

With these facts established, there is only one constructive thing a BS can do to influence the course of an affair: change the affair-friendly marital environment by eliminating the BS contributions to it.

To this end, the BS must perform an introspective search for all the things they were doing or not doing that contributed to the WS's decision to have an affair - and then eliminate those negative contributions. These may include failure to meet emotional needs or disbursing too many love busters - but is usually some combination of both.

This DOES NOT mean that the BS "caused" the affair. This DOES NOT mean that the BS can or should try to change failings of the WS.

It simply means that the BS needs to change and improve the only thing they have control over - themselves - to eliminate love busters and begin meeting as many emotional needs of the WS as they can.

Central in this is stopping all disrespectful judgements, angry outbursts, and demands. This is agonizingly difficult in the face of an affair. A BS has to counter the common knee jerk reactions of demanding the WS "straighten up" and delivering ultimatums and threats. Acting in this fashion simply reinforces the WS's rationalizations to conduct the affair in the first place - because the marriage "is over" or expendable and the spouse is unreasonable, therefore the affair is justifiable.

Invariably, this course leads BSs to feel like doormats and [censored] kissers. It also conjures up thoughts of enabling the affair by not resisting it. But the better logic to apply is that the BS isn't a doormat or enabling because they're doing the only things in their power to stop the affair - it's just counterintuitive to the initial reactions. This doesn't mean that boundaries shouldn't be set and protective measures shouldn't be taken.

Let me add that Plan A is all about the BS. You do not "Plan A" your WS. It is not intended to change ANYTHING but the BS.

I'll end this by offering that there is one additional thing a BS can do to alter the course of the affair - but I call it "destructive" rather than "constructive" (to separate it from the one and only constructive thing, discussed above). It's to expose the affair to the light of day. But this is a separate part of Plan A and deserves it's own discussion.

OK, one more thing. The affair is very, very likely to end DESPITE what the BS does or does not do. Until it ends, there is NO chance for reconciliation. Ideally, Plan A improvements can encourage the WS to end the affair sooner because the spouse's "causes" of it are eliminated. But regardless, following Plan A prepares the BS for a successful reconciliation whenever and for whatever reason the affair ends by jump starting the process - their share of pre-existing marital problems are already confronted.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WAT

Thanks again...

A few questions... still not sure if I should move forward with Plan A before or after I try to change and address the issues I have...

I have changed the issues that I know about like spending more time at home... spending more time with the kids... helping out more around the house...

but the one thing that I cannot do is leave her relationship with the other guy be...

that is the thing that she says makes her the most resentful towards me...

and that I am always unhappy... and I told her that I unhappy because of her friendship and what it does to me... and she doesn't care... and will not change it...

so either way one of us is going to be unhappy... either myself because I have to deal with this EA...

or she is unhappy because she has to loose her best friend and will hate me for it...

and that brings up the question about the a books... I assume that if I am not to be pushy and accusatory that I would not want to be reading books about affairs in front of my wife... until she understands that she is in one...

So I would guess that "his needs her needs" would be an ok book for around the house... any others that would be ok? And do you not think that by showing these books around the house that she will not feel pressured... she can't stand the thought that I want to still make this work... it makes her feel smothered and that I am trying to be a good guy too late in her mind and that my efforts are stupid and an attack towards her?

A few questions... still not sure if I should move forward with Plan A before or after I try to change and address the issues I have...

Plan A should be in place NOW. There is no point in waiting. However, I think you need to go and read about it again, as I don't think you fully understand it. Plan A is about meeting your W's ENs and avoiding LBs. It is about making YOU the best H you can be.

I have changed the issues that I know about like spending more time at home... spending more time with the kids... helping out more around the house...

This is an excellent example of Plan A. If one of your W's top ENs is domestic support then you are absolutely doing the right thing here. This is great.

but the one thing that I cannot do is leave her relationship with the other guy be...

that is the thing that she says makes her the most resentful towards me...

Plan A is not about walking on eggshells and being afraid your W will get angry. You have the right (and I'd say the responsibility) of letting her know that her actions are hurtful to you. You *don't* have the right to make disrespectful judgements, such as telling her she protects him at your expense, or getting her to read various materials. Don't tell her what she feels. Don't tell her how she should act.

Expose, and put your focus back on yourself.
ENs, LBs, and Plan A.


Edited to add: Regarding the books. Read what you like, but be tactful. Don't hide the fact that you are reading them but don't leave them lying out on the sofa or coffee table or dresser. Put them "away" while you're not reading them. My opinion only. The fact that she says your changes are "too little too late" shows that she is noticing your changes already. Keep focusing on yourself.

<small>[ January 27, 2005, 12:41 PM: Message edited by: turtlehead ]</small>

DH,
"His Needs/Her Needs" gives you some insight about relationships. Don't be surprised that she won't read it or wany anything to do with the exercises. My wife didn't - after all there's nothing wrong with them - right? Seriously read the book, learn how to improve yourself. If your wife reads it or takes any interest great!

DH,

I saw your comments on MarkNY's thread. Thank you, I'm very pleased that my comments made sense to someone and were of help. You said something there and I thought I'd bring it here, to your thread, rather than hijack his <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I am in the process of reading all the EN's...
I just don't know if she will allow me to even try to fill any of her emotional needs... because she thinks that if I do nice things for her that I am just trying to manipulate her...

Lordy, lordy, this is so predictable. I know you're getting sick of hearing it but "they all do that."

More reading for you to do <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Your wife is in an state of emotional withdrawal from you. Harley talks about Three States of Mind in a Marriage:
Intimacy <-> Confrontation <-> Withdrawal

While she is withdrawn from you she is not receptive to your attempts to fill her ENs. That is okay, that is normal, that is to be expected. Keep on doing it, for two reasons:

1) Practice never hurt anyone <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
2) As she does mental inventories of all the reasons your M is doomed, how imperfect you are, etc., there will be little breaks in her defenses. This takes a long time, so be patient.

When she lashes out at you for trying to manipulate her, this is actually a good thing. A person doesn't jump from withdrawal to intimacy. They go through anger. The anger shows she has taken down her isolation barrier enough to engage with you.

I will re-read Plan A... but I thought it was "for the betrayed spouse to negotiate with the wayward spouse to totally separate from the lover without angry outbursts, disrespect, and demands"

and start making changes to myself to better me he EN

I have been working on the second half... but the first hurdle is not jumped... I have tried in the past to tell her how I feel... and it always ends in her denial...

How is telling her that she is in a wrong relationship a disrespectful judgments... she has told me that she feels this way... that he is the only one she can confide in and she chooses him over me because he is fun... etc

So how come many have told me to shut down communication between the two... and you say that i should not tell her how to act or do...

I am a little confused...

I did read the 3 states of marriage this a.m. I understand it... but I do not understand how i am to keep doing the right things even though it makes her mad and run farther away...

another question is how do I find out what needs I am not meeting if she is not even willing to discuss these types of "what kind of things can I do to help you" things out of her fear of me manipulating her or because of my motives to get this thing worked out...

I am sorry if I am a newby that is needy... I apologize if I am a little scatter brained... I am pretty sharp but the internet is no replacement for a good ole face to face conversation :-)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by devastatedhubby:
<strong> I will re-read Plan A... but I thought it was "for the betrayed spouse to negotiate with the wayward spouse to totally separate from the lover without angry outbursts, disrespect, and demands"</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Literally, that's correct.

But in the very common situation such as yours when the WS immediately cuts off negotiation or goes into denial mode, you have to back off. This leaves the "improve yourself" part and demonstrate your improvements part with the hope that a combination of your improvements and time that the WS will turn around.

More often than not, if the WS doesn't immediately see the light of day, they will hunker down in defensive, denial mode and it becomes a long process. This is where you are right now. During this time, you cannot reason with the WS, so the advice is "back off" until such time as they get their head's outta their butts.

WAT

OK I can see that... but at this point in time she thinks that I am ok with their friendship... or at least the last time we talked I said they could still be friends even though it was hard for me...

So do I take a stand... and tell her once and for all that I think that it is wrong and why... and ask for no contact... in a nice way of course?

I know she will say I am controlling her by stating that I think it is wrong and it should change... that is one of her biggest complaint about me... that I am controlling her

On a side note... I just read the controlling husband letters... I can see a little bit of both ... she has a bad perception and I have not been totally perfect...

I truthfully see that we had our third child 7 months ago and she sees that she has no control of her life... she thinks that the kids and I are taking away her identity... and I think that thoughts of not being to make it on her own and it is scaring her... she wants out and feels trapped

But how and when should I try to talk to her about this stuff... I know that there is no perfect answer and I know I have more than one thing to deal with her...

I am just having a hard time finding the correct order and steps to take care of it all...

I know it will take lots of time and effort... but I must start somewhere...

Thanks again

I suggest you tell her - in a calm and sincere way - that you feel that her relationship with OM is not healthy for your marriage. Admit your past shortcomings and pledge to work hard with her to explore all things that need to be improved in your marriage so that you can provide the very best family environment for your children and yourselves. This cannot happen with this distraction in your marriage.

She WILL play the "controlling" card. After that she will play the "you're trying to manipulate me" card. Expect it.

But you make your point. You express your feelings. But you DO NOT do it in a "controlling" way, despite what she will say.

For example, do not say, "You need to stop seeing OM!"

Instead say, "I feel that we cannot work on making our marriage better as long as OM is a distraction for you."

Always, use "I" statements. "I feel...", "I believe...". It makes me feel angry...." "It makes me feel hurt..."

Not, "You are doing this.....", "You shouldn't be doing that..." "You make me angry...."

See the difference? "You..." puts her on the defensive and makes her feel judged and disrespected.

Keep in mind - it doesn't matter thet YOU ARE RIGHT!!!!

You ARE right!!! She is WRONG!!!

(And here's the classic MB rhetorical question):

Do you wanna be right or do you wanna be married?

OK?

WAT

I have said almost the exact words before...
" in a calm and sincere way - that you feel that her relationship with OM is not healthy for your marriage. Admit your past shortcomings and pledge to work hard with her to explore all things that need to be improved in your marriage so that you can provide the very best family environment for your children and yourselves. This cannot happen with this distraction in your marriage."

"I feel that we cannot work on making our marriage better as long as OM is a distraction for you."

almost the same exact words...

but she says that we have bigger issues than him... and that I am trying to control her...

she said that even if it were the right thing to do... that she does not WANT to do it... and that I should not try to make her...

I really don't feel the need to be right... I just want this to work...

I guess that I am just goin to have to do it one more time... and quickly turn the discussion on to things I can try to change...

I dunno

So do I take a stand... and tell her once and for all that I think that it is wrong and why... and ask for no contact... in a nice way of course?

Absolutely you take a stand! Especially considering the fact that the last time you talked you said they could still be friends. Now, it is not up to you to say what they can and can't do. You're not their Momma. Also I'd caution against telling her you think it's wrong and why. This will come across as judgmental and critical.

How about "I told you in the past that a friendship between you and OM would be okay by me. I've learned that a continued friendship between the two of you is just too painful for me to endure, and I wanted to let you know that I find it too hurtful."

If she asks you if you're telling her she can't be friends with him, be honest: "I wouldn't presume to tell you what you can and cannot do. You are an adult, and you make your own decisions. I do feel I have an obligation to tell you how badly your friendship with him hurts me."

I know she will say I am controlling her by stating that I think it is wrong and it should change... that is one of her biggest complaint about me... that I am controlling her

Of course she'd feel like you're controlling her. How would you like being told that your choice of favorite color was wrong and it should change? How about your job is all wong and you should change it? How about your friendship with one of your buddies?

Now, how about "I understand that your favorite color is puce, but I personally don't care for it and so choose not to wear puce clothing."

How about "Your friendship with OM pains me deeply."

WAT's advice is sound, as always. I'd go one further than his "I feel that we cannot work on making our marriage better as long as OM is a distraction for you." and omit the part about OM being a distraction for her. She'll insist that he isn't a distraction, that the problems have nothing to do with OM, that they are between the two of you. Maybe something like "I feel that we cannot work on making our marriage better as long as you are friends with OM. I find the friendship too threatening to our M."

A couple of posts ago you said I have tried in the past to tell her how I feel... and it always ends in her denial.... I'd say you need to re-evaluate how you tell her about your feelings. How can she deny that you feel a certain way? She might dismiss your feelings, or poo-poo them, but she can't really deny that you feel a certain way.

Also you asked How is telling her that she is in a wrong relationship a disrespectful judgments... . Refer to my remarks about favorite colors. It is not for you to tell her that she is in something wrong, any more than it is your place to tell her that her favorite color is stupid. Rather, you should be telling her how her friendship affects you. Can you see the difference? It is very hard to do so, sometimes.

I guess I get all of that.... but how many times do I have to tell her that their friendship hurts me deeply... and that I cannot deal with that and our marriage at the same time...


and you tell me not to tell her not to see or talk to him... but others say cut it off even if it hurts...

I am in yoyo mode :-)

Well if you've told her how badly you're hurt by it all, I'd say it's time to drop that and only tell her in a month, if they're still involved, then drop it for another month, and so on.

I think it's important that she know the friendship is no longer "okay" with you but once she knows that, there's nothing more to say.

and you tell me not to tell her not to see or talk to him... but others say cut it off even if it hurts...

You can't make her quit seeing him or talking to him. She's a person with freedom of choice. She will or she won't, and you can't make her do or not do anything. I'm not sure how others expect YOU to cut it off when you haven't the power to do so.

Since you've told her how the relationship affects you, and since she knows you are not okay with it, drop it. Focus on meeting her ENs and avoiding LBs. Try to be fun, interesting, supportive, encouraging. This will take time and consistency.

<strong> I guess I get all of that.... but how many times do I have to tell her that their friendship hurts me deeply... and that I cannot deal with that and our marriage at the same time...</strong>
It depends on how many times you CAN say it.

<strong>
and you tell me not to tell her not to see or talk to him... but others say cut it off even if it hurts...
</strong>
She must cut it off. You can not make her do anything and if she does do it for you then resentment will be the result and she will eventually talk to OM again. She must do of her own free will.

<strong>
I am in yoyo mode :-) </strong>

Welcome brother yoyo!

Added: Not sure about dropping it for a month at a time. Shouldn't say it all day everyday either. This how often of it is tricky I would say. Use your intuition to help guide you.

<small>[ January 27, 2005, 04:29 PM: Message edited by: greergan ]</small>