</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Contrary to Stan-ley's advice, do not threaten him, do not give him an ultimatum. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A threat is not a good idea---- an ultimatum is the same thing. However, I would think he should be very forceful and stern in his remarks to the OM. The last thing BH should do is to appear like a gutless wimp in front of OM. This is important, as most OM are cowards by nature. That is why the engage in relationships in the dark--- in secrecy. They are as afraid of discovery by the BH as the WW. IN essence they hide behind the skirt of the WW. If a real man ever falls in love with a married woman he would go open right away and not try to hide anything. To operate in the dark like that and to hide from the BH is the MO of a coward.

well that all makes sense and I am willing to do it in that order... it was kinda the steps I was leaning towards...

As of right now the thing that sucks is that my wife is trying to make things settle down... she called me this afternoon asking if I wanted to go out tonight... but that we would not talk about stuff...

So I am afraid that I cannot keep a happy mood with all that is on my shoulders...

And I know that if we go out tonight and make it semi-enjoyable that when I do go to pastor in the next few days... and then the OM... that she will flip out and say that I have crossed the line... that she was trying and that I screwed it up...

I would love to think that I could ask the pastor to step in... then we both confront OM and then we try to get him to just tell her it is wrong and step away so it isn't coming directly from me...

I don't know...

Any comments? :-)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by devastatedhubby:
<strong>I would love to think that I could ask the pastor to step in... then we both confront OM and then we try to get him to just tell her it is wrong and step away so it isn't coming directly from me...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This plan makes sense - go to the Pastor first and see what happens. Exposure should be done in concentric circles. Your case is special in that the OM is the Pastor's son and the Pastor supposedly has much influence and - unless he's a raving hypocrit - professes to do the right thing by ht enature of his position. Without the "Pastor player component" you DO contact the OM first.

But one thing to keep in mind: Looking ahead to recovery, you want your wife to see that you "fought" for her. She won't see it that way at the moment, but you should not be avoiding being the instigator of the exposure for this reason.

Keep in mind that you will be blamed for ANYTHING that upsets her fantasy. So if you're gonna get blamed anyway............

So, Do accept your wife's invitation for whatever she asked you to do with her. Fill all the ENs you can. But do not conclude that this means "poof" the affair threat is over. You HAVE to go to the Pastor. Period.

WAT

she called me this afternoon asking if I wanted to go out tonight...

My wife surprised in a plush five star hotel resort for a romantic rendevouz.

<small>[ January 28, 2005, 03:13 PM: Message edited by: Stan-ley ]</small>

Well I hear ya... But I cannot get to the pastor very quickly... so for me not to go out just for dinner and a movie or something... she would know something is up... I am not saying that her asking me to go out is the end of her affair... I wish it were that easy...

My plan for now is to just hang with her tonight... seek out the pastor... tomorrow... and then get the ball rollin

The pastor's son has told me in the past that he will respect my wishes to stop seeing my wife... so If I can get the pastor to tell him he is wrong... and then tell him to stay away... I guess that is when the real work will begin... waiting for the shyte to hit the fan for a while... but at least it will be moving somewhere... for better or for worse... who knows... but something must give...

<small>[ January 28, 2005, 03:01 PM: Message edited by: devastatedhubby ]</small>

Just wanted to say that you're getting excellent advice, and it sounds like you're on the right track.

Of course go out with your W. You're filling an EN for recreational companionship and conversation.

Don't talk about the M or the A right now. Just enjoy it, and be fun. Pretend like you're dating your W, and make a good impression.

And DO talk to the pastor. Personally I'd show him the most incriminating email or two but ask that he keep the fact that you had a copy of the email to himself. If your sources get revealed, they do, but if not it'd be better.

Like everyone else has said, she's gonna be super pi.... well, she's gonna be upset <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> WAT made a great point that much later when she looks back on this she'll see your actions as fighting for her. She won't like it now, but later you have the chance to be her knight in shining armor.

"knight in shining armor"

Right now my wife would like to have a flame througher!

She is on the fence (more like climbing down the other side). She isn't running to him - she knows he's off limits, but rather to run away.

Its been over a month since confronting his wife about EA and still no change.

She made that point last time we talked... you can take him away but I will want to get out and be away just as much...

So I think that she knows this is coming... after the last big talk a month or two ago...


Thanks again for helping me face the weekend...

I will update when I can...

Till next time:-)

Here are a bunch much of catagorized articles on infidelity that may help you understand better what you are up against.

http://www.surviving-infidelity-kit.com/

I read them at the different levels I was at at the time. I hope they help you.

TooSoon

DH,

How did the evening go? You doing OK?

Wow... where to start... well I went home after work Friday and every thing was calm... so we got the kids settled in... my mom came to watch the kids... and we left... all is ok till we get a few miles down the road... and something reminds her to ask me if I called her dad... and I said yes I had... that I just told him that I was sorry for what was going on and that I wanted him to know that if I was ever in a bad mood or he felt I was angry with him... that I was sorry... that it was not him... but what his daughter and I was going through...

So she got po'd at me for trying to get to everyone and make myself look all good... and take away the only people that would ever support her if things would not work out...

So anyway... silent treatment on the way to the restaurants... I tried to bring up a few topics in a very nice way... and she brushed me off...

So we get to the place... sit down... and silence... so she jumped out and said... if we are not gonna talk... we might as well lay it all out on the table... I said I was not prepared to talk about the stuff that I needed to address...

Needless to say she pressed me to talk about it...

So I brought up the OM and she got all mad... told me how she hated and did not respect that I will not look past him... and that we have issues that go way farther back than that and that she will not let him be the focus of our issues...

I said I understand that she feels we have other things to work out... but I needed that to get worked out... and she finally said... I will not talk to him or relate to him again... but that it would not make her feel any differently towards me...

So we went home and went to bed with much anger...

I did my best to respect her during the conversation... I think it made her more mad...

The next day there were no words... until I had to get her out of our room around 6p.m. for the first time all day ... because I was going out for a few hours...

That night... she wrote me a letter and left it by the door...

It stated...

Any feelings that I have had the past two days prior to friday night have been shot down... I felt I needed to make steps forward... I had bought a book... about how to love jesus more... that once you do that your love for other will follow... and I have tried to go out with other friends... thus the going out with girlfriend the night before... and now your actions and accusations and the way you have treated me about OM have left me feeling controlled as always... and all I know is how I feel when I am with you and how much better and safer I feel without you... and something is not right...

So sunday morning was not great... because I asked her something about her letter that I did not understand and that brought up talks again... so we hit church after a 1/2 hour of chatting:-)

We came home and got a little sunday afternoon shuteye...

At church I felt moved to be totally honest and open... because she has told me that she knew that I had some way to find out about the emails... and that I was Magnum PI towards her... and that she would never be able to trust me...

That morning I had lied to her about how I got the info...
So I told her that honesty has to come first before all things right now... and to prove to her that my heart is right and has right motives... that I had lied to her and knew that she was still lying to me...

I figured... that I am tired of fighting and tracking her...
so I let the cat out of the bag...

I had a key tracker on the computer... and that I had seen every last email that she had sent to him... and that I saw all the emails that he had sent to her... even though she had been deleting them...

She was not that mad... she said that she knew something was going on...

So she now realizes that I have all the stuff in the world... and her tune changes...

She says that she has no safe place in the world... that she has no space to be a human... she cannot talk to friends... she cannot journal... she can't even talk to her own dad without me trying to be involved... and giving my 2 cents worth... and that now... I am blackmailing her... by waving these letters around that nobody would understand if they read them in black and white... and didn't understand their hearts and relationship...


She said that she has felt controlled by me since day one pretty much... and that this is the exact thing that she hates and resents me for...

So I brought up the letters that were going between them... because she said that they were good friends... and that if the were brother and sister that everyone in the world would think that it was the coolest relationship...

But because she is married... that they cannot have the relationship...

She understands that it is not respectful to me...

She says that if she were to leave today that they would not change their relationship one bit... and that she knows that if she were to move on in life that she would have the same type of problems with any other man down the road... that is why she wants to do ind. counseling...


She says she has not felt safe with me... that she does not feel that I will ever choose her... that I am only looking out for myself by keeping these letters to hang her with to make myself look better in the end if she can't get a grip on her personal issues...

She is crying a river...

Enough already...

Basically she said that she knew that on the outside their relationship was wrong being that we were married... but in her heart it was nothing more than a friendship... and If I only knew what he had helped he with as a human being that I would understand... that when he was coming along she was about to jump ship and set sail for the mother land... and he helped he not hurt herself... and even told her that she should fix things with me... even though he would tell her to do what was best for her even though it didn't keep me in mind...

So the last thing that I will say is that I took a big step... and I don't know if it is right... based off the feelings I have and the help you guys have given me...

She asked me to chose her for once... to show her that I would think that she is good enough to take a risk... and get rid of the letters... so that she could move on without feeling blackmailed and controlled... and that she would not have to have me every time things get bad pull them out and say... remember... I have these letters...


And in return she would give up that relationship...


So I trashed them...

I feel that she is sincere and it is not worth killing a person and driving them crazy... to be right...

I am in love with my wife even though she has issues with me... and I will take the first big leap and change to make this work...

If I fail and this comes back to screw me... it is ok... I will have done the best that I could...

I hope that I have understood you guys enough to make the right decisions...

I am being honest... and I am trying to show her that she is important to me...

I don't need the papers to prove I am right...

So she went out with a friend that had called for a few hours last night... then she came home and into our bed!

I asked her if she had fun... and we chatted a bit... first chat about anything other than the issues for a while...

Somehow counseling came up... she asked me where I was going and I said I didn't really have a plan... but that I would start calling tomorrow... and I asked her If I could set something up for her and she said yes... but do not fill them in on your version of what is going on:-) I said I promised not to...

I made the comment as a joke that we were going to have to sell the house to afford 2 counselors without insurance... and she said... if it were 3000 an hour I should be willing to get her help:-)

And I said I would give the world for her to be well...

And then she said that it wasn't like she would need counseling for along time every week... acting as if she has seen the light of day ... but needs to help get rolling...

I was pretty happy!

We then Both fell asleep...

She bumped me in the hall this morning... on purpose... and laughed... then when I left for work... she said have a great day... and back in the day she would have given me a hug and a kiss... but that had stopped along time ago...

I got a nice smile and high five this morning...

A step...

One out of many I hope!

Wow this is long!

DH, I am glad you told her the truth ~ lying, even to protect your source, is just doing to her what she was doing to you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> and get rid of the letters... so that she could move on without feeling blackmailed and controlled... and that she would not have to have me every time things get bad pull them out and say... remember... I have these letters... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My FWH had me do this, as well, for the same reasons. Told me if I gave them back to him, that he would know I didn't care about being right, or some such talk, and that he would choose me.

Well, he got what he wanted, I gave him the letters, and 4 days later he left us for OW. I'm not saying that to freak you out, because you stated that you know this is a possibility. As well with her happy attitude today, could be because she feels she won't get "caught."

But in the end, all it is is evidence. Evidence doesn't mean much in a feelings-based relationship. She is classic with defending their communications. "Nobody would understand, we're just friends, it's not about sex" blah blah blah.

I do think you did the best you could in the situation you were in. My thoughts and prayers are with you.

Spidey

DH:

This is strange------ more so since you wrote the post and not your wife. I am not comfortable with her sudden conversion. It was motivated by the proof you had in your hands. Maybe I am wrong, but they way you wrote the post-------- I am suspicious.

I hope I am wrong!

In any event you still need to have a serious talk with OM. She will not like that, but this has to be done.

I am happy for you and I hope my hunch is wrong.

Good Luck!

I understand you concerns... I have the same ones... she has been seeing that the pastor, pastor's wife, and the OM has been telling her as of late... that she must make things happen for our marriage...

So it is our understanding that I will talk to the OM asap... and tell him what they did was wrong even if it was just wrong because he is not a girl...

My wife brought up this point... if this guy was a girl... what then... what if she talked to him about how controlled she felt, and how I never really respected her in the way that she thought I should have, and that even though she liked sex... that with all the bad feeling towards me that she could not just do it, and that she really appreciated and loved her as a person... and told her how much she has helped... that all would be ok...

I must agree with that... but I stuck to my guns and said he crossed the line one too many times... and it cannot be... and that maybe her counselor could help her understand... what is ok and what is not...

I also then brought up the emotional needs thing... that he is fulfilling some that I should... and she said that any friendship can mimic a marriage in some areas... and that she cannot have all her needs met by her husband...

Affection, Conversation, Recreational Companionship, Honesty and openness, Admiration...

These all can be met by husband... and others...

I did not know what to say about that, other than she is not letting me fill any of them... besides Financial Support... paying the bills:-)

Anyway... she admitted that we both have issues to deal with and that we should see ind. counselors... all apt's are made... I start layin it out tomorrow... and she will do her thing on Thursday...

We will see

I see... I failed you all ... and now everyone has written me off as dumb...


Just kidding :-)

DH,

You are not dumb. Talkinmg with a therapist should help you put things in some perspective. On your first visit you'll come away feeling more confused than anything since you'll be relaying to him/her a lot of whats on your mind and a lot of disconnected thoughts.

Your idea of going to your pastor wasn't a bad idea. But some thoughts here about disclosing it to the whole congragation are disguided. What will that do? Vreate embarrasment so bad it would shame most people out of town. That might just be the result you'll get - she'll leave town. At the very least you'll both feel uneasy. Imagine walking into a place and evetyone stops talking to look at you. Think that would feel good?

You can always go to your pastor, or tell the whole town. Take it from me, communication is irreversable. You can't undo what was said, you can't just request it be stricken from the record. Try your therapist route. IMO it would be better if you had some marriage therapy along with it. The whole we sank into was going to third persons and never interacting with each other on a deep interpersonal level. It's called being afraid of conflict. We all have that fear to varying degrees. Individual therapy makes it all so easy to fall into trap.

I was so afraid of conflict with my wife I told some man's wife instead of first telling my wife in no uncertain terms 'knock it off'! Why? I was affraid she'd leave me. Well now thats exactly what she says she wants to do. I can't undo what I said and who I said it to. Its out there and so are a lot of hurt feelings. Can we get by this? I honestly don't know.

Watch the advice you get here. While people are well meaning everyone comes from a different past with different believes. Some are more able to say my way or the hiway and no problem with the outcome. Someone told me to kick my wife out, saying she can return if she wants. I think thats a very last resort and one should be ready that the wife never come back before saying that. What if went home last night and kicked her out? Is that what I want - no! Being together at least affords an opprotunity to work on things easier than if you're apart. I can always kick her out or leave myself. But I must be prepared for the very real possibility that it's forever. I'm not prepared for that.

DH, I think you are doing wonderfully. Perhaps you and your W could read "NOT Just Friends" by Shirley Glass together, out loud. Perhaps hearing from a "professional," in a very engaging way, could help her understand WHY it is so different that she is sharing such intimate details with a man rather than a girlfriend. There is a difference. Is it right or wrong? No, there is a difference. MANY boundaries that should exist between men and women of the opposite sex, when one or both are involved in a committed relationship with someone else, have been crossed in your W's relationship with OM ~ IMO.

That book could help you very much in explaining your feelings to your wife, in a way that shouldn't make her feel defensive.

These waters of communication are so hard to charter well when emotions are running so high. I think IC is a great place to start, for both of you. Hopefully, after some time has passed, you could both move to a MC. For my FWH and I, his IC became our MC. The first MC we had didn't really "get" us, and my H walked out on the 3rd appointment. I thought for sure he was leaving to file for D that day, but instead got a call from him inviting me to his next IC appointment. That day, his IC became our MC, and 3 weeks after that H moved back home.

So many times, when people become unhappy in their own lives, they project it onto someone else ~ "It's my S's fault I'm not happy." Once the problems can be addressed in a healthy, productive way, the blame starts to go away. And the need to escape into a fantasy-based relationship, an EA/PA, also goes away.

Please keep posting. I am so happy you seem to be moving in a forward direction.

Spidey

ss... I am off to a meeting and i am tem min late... but i have to reply to your reply...

THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I NEEDED TO HEAR RIGHT NOW!!!

I will post more after meeting...


Thanks that chears me up a bit!

Dear D,
As so many of the others have said, you have found the right place.

My $0.50:

Your W in is an EA. I am so sorry.

Exposure!!!

Your WW is deep in the throes of an addiction worse than heroin. She is sick and needs your help. Just like a drug addict, she will try and manipulate you to keep silent, so she can keep her drug (the A). In my case, the OW begged my H (who was trying to break it off) not to tell me b/c it 'would hurt me'. Hahaha. Such concern! She didn't give a rat's you-know-what if I was hurt, she just wanted to keep their thing going, knowing that when the light of day shone on the A, it would die. She was right.

The only way to kick this habit is cold turkey. And it will be ugly. She already has threatened your sexual relationship. She has said ugly, mean, horrid things to you. I don't know how we BSs get over these, but we do. Please, please don't listen to her. File these cruel jibes under 'delusional talk'. It's like if you are dealing with a little, bratty child who calls you 'poopy face' or something like that. Consider the source.

The OMs parents: Either they're for you or against you. There is no middle ground here. Ask them to speaj to their som. Will your W be pissed? Yup! Too bad. She is committing ADULTERY. And it has to stop. I would also suggest you guys find another church. The OM is probably going to stay, ensuring continued C. Bad news

She wants to be on her own and not be in a R: Right. This is like the girls who have unprotected sex, then pray that they'll never do it again, if they don't end up pregnant. That lasts until they get their period, then it begins all over again. Your WW wants to continue C w/o your interference. That's all.

Be strong. Do Plan A. Set the boundaries. Request a NC letter - she writes it (preferably with you),you have to see it, and you have to send it. BTW, NC breaks somtimes. Don't let it get you down.

Remember, she is an addict now. She needs you to help her get out of it. She is lucky to have you. She will thank you when the fog clears.

Good luck and blessings

Well I am in yoyo mode... thats ok.. we have been talking... I had my first session... I feel like things are at least moving... she says they are not talking... and that she will talk to her counselor about him... and that is all she can say for now... oh and that she has decided not to leave...

She has admitted to me that she feels so controlled by me that she is lashing out... and she knows that she is wrong... but that I must try to see that 2 years ago she was about to check out... and know she is here trying to move forward... that she has progressed...

She is also not blaming me for the whole controlled feeling... she admits that she has felt this way about all males in her life... and that I might just add fuel to the fire... or push the right buttons too often... that she really needs to get this issue resolved within herself...

She told me that she does not feel that I have P abused her but that she is wanting to do research on emotional abuse/ controlling issues...

I said that I had no problem with her feelings.... and if she feels that way... explore...

So I said that I would hope that I had never done that... but that I would look down that road... and reflect on the past... and how I have treated her...

I am not letting her make me feel sorry for her and this possibly made up story... I am taking an honest look at myself to try to make sure that I make steps towards not LB'ing by emotional abuse...

The sad part about researching emotion abuse is that there are 10 million things that say how the woman should get out of the situation... but I cannot find anything on how to stop being abusive if you have some of the traits...

So of course she will find all she needs to hear to put me in the mold of Emotional abuser...

I cannot help that...
My plan is to bring up the feelings that my wife has mentioned to me to my counselor and see what he has to say...

I am however not backing down that she is to do the same on the OM's relationship... be open and honest and read things like NOT just friends...

She seems to be on board...

So can you guys point me in the right direction for looking into me being Emotionally abusive...

I have a found a few lists of questions that point to being an emotional abuser... I can say yes to some of them... and no to others...

But I can tell you that almost all of the ones I say yes to are prevalent in 95% of men... not that it makes it right...


Thanks for listening...