</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But I can tell you that almost all of the ones I say yes to are prevalent in 95% of men... not that it makes it right...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am a non-controlling H. Can you post what are those behaviors? Maybe I can help you out. I am known as very non-anal type B personality. My wife runs the ship and I do not interfere.

Do not forget that many FWWs rewrite marital history------- you may not be as controlling as your wife describes you.

BH, this all sounds very positive to me. And you are right-on with the emotional abuse thing. My instinct (NOT training, because I have none) tells me that if you were an emotional abuser, you would not support her in exploring herself, and you wouldn't offer to explore your own self. BUT, like I said, I don't know much about the subject, so . . . that could be part of a pattern, for all I know.

Anyway, what I DO know from experience, is that if you watch someone long enough, you will see them do something "wrong." I was a playground "Duty (that is what they called us, I don't know why)" at my sons' school for over 3 years. And I trained the new "Duty's." And the first thing I told them, is to not focus only on the kids they heard or thought were "bad," because if ANY child is watched very closely, they will EACH do something technically against the rules (either from ignorance of the rules, or just natural human nature).

So, if your W has convinced herself you are an emotional abuser/controller, you are correct that she might choose to pick those things out from the other 99% of stuff you do. However, she is going to do what she is going to do. You cannot stop her.

I suggest you read up on Emotional abuse/controlling behavior. In men. Just as you are thinking to do. Honestly, what I would do to get GREAT recommendations for resource material is two-fold: 1)Make a separate thread here on MB requesting this information in the topic of the thread, AND 2)go to Save Your Marriage Central, run by Penny Tupy, and register as a member and post the same thread with the same topic.

The nice thing about SYMC is that they have a smaller Moderator/Member ratio, and I think even though you don't get as many responses, the consistent quality is excellent.

So, read, educate, stick to YOUR boundaries regarding the OM and NC. It sounds to me that your W is on the cusp of learning some important stuff about herself, and the best thing you can do, if you truly love her and want to be married to her, is to do what you can to assist her in discovering what makes her happy. And it has NOTHING to do with OM, IMO. It is all about HER.

I didn't have an A, but there were many years that I felt as your W describes herself as feeling. And strangely, not until my FWH had his A, did I seek and receive the assistance I needed ~ to realize that everything I need to be happy in my life is inside of MYSELF. I was looking in all the wrong places. Hopefully, this crisis in YOUR M can serve the same purpose for your W.

My thoughts and prayers are with you. Please keep posting. I agree with Stanley, too. Could you post some of the stuff you are answering "yes" to that may indicate you are abusive/controlling? It will be interesting to get other men's opinions on that. May help you get a better gauge on where you are really at. Sometimes, when we are IN the forest, it is hard to see, for all the TREES pressed up against our faces.

Spidey

DH, how is everything going?

Well... I am unsure...

A few days ago my W said she would not contact OM and I emailed him to not contact her...

Then they had to talk one more time without my permission... I was upset... but she did not lie to me about it... that is a step... they talked... but said it was just to say they were fading to black... as in he will not be in contact with her while we try to resolve our issues...

He then emailed me to try to explain himself... and I pretty much told him that their relationship is not ok with me and that he will not talk to her with my permission... and that for them to have asked me not to talk to anyone about this has sealed their fate...

Even if they wanted to just say Hi at church... and maybe a phone call every once in a while to make sure she is ok... and doing better... is out of the question being that they wont seek counsel to see that what they are doing is wrong... and that they had already crossed a line and there is no going back...

So I have been pretty much everyday been defending my stance and beliefs...

Last night was her first session... she came home and we had a pretty good night... she liked her counselor and believes that she will understand where she is coming from... she told me that she told the counselor that I had a problem with a guy friend and let it at that... that she had bigger issues with things in her life...

I said that it was kinda weird that she didn't say more about it seeming that it was such a part of our lives for the last 2 years and we are dealing with IT right now... and she said maybe in a few sessions but not now...

I said ok...

So today she called to tell me that she was going shopping to get out for the day... and she then asked me what I had said to the OM... I said I am in the same position as before... she agreed to not talk to him... and I told him not to contact her... and that is where I left it... she then said... so I can't even tell him my session went good and that I like the lady... I said I cannot agree to those terms... and she said fine then I will go be by myself for the rest of the day... and talk to no one... I said I am sorry... I would love to be there for her if she needed to talk... but this is the way it needs to be...

she then said that I was the same ole... just trying to control her... by picking her friends... telling her what she can and cannot do...

Whatever...

I have done much reading on emotional abuse... and I see some things in the past that I have done wrong... But I am willing to seek help and make changes... but I will not let this thing sidetrack dealing with EA affair...

I guess that is the latest!

I am pretty much just waiting on her...

On a side note... she acted like she had no problem letting our two counselors chat about our sides of things to each other... I knew that was an option but never even brought it up to her... so... maybe this is a good thing...

DH, thank you for the update. I have been thinking of you. First, what your WW is doing, IMO, is "normal" for where she is at. Just as an alcoholic probably thinks they can "give up the drink at any time," when they try it, the truth comes out. And most of the time, instead of acknowleding this fact and being mortified and humbled, they react with justification/rationalization to keep the addiction going. I see this in you WW.

"Oh, giving up the OM and having NC will be hard, but we can do it." Then, what, how many days later? 3 or 4? Or sometimes ONE? "YOU are taking my only friend away. YOU are trying to control me. YOU are ruining my life." It is all "fog" babble. I am VERY impressed that you are sticking to your boundaries. You are the only one who can see the disfunction right now. You are the hope for your WW to end her addiction and see reality again, IMO.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> she acted like she had no problem letting our two counselors chat about our sides of things to each other </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My FWH did the same thing with this, and I jumped on the opportunity. My IC was able to get information that was very comforting to me at the time. Such as, according to FWH's IC, FWH was NOT decided on D. In fact, he was still very confused. BUT, all FWH told me at the time was that he was SURE he wanted a D. Seems FWH didn't want to give me "false hope" by telling me he wasn't "sure."

This also gives your IC's the ability to help BOTH of you on a deeper level. While she is receptive to it, make sure you both sign all the necessary papers to make that happen (IMO).

Your sitch sounds very hopeful to me, DH. She does not seem committed to the D process, even if for just her religious beliefs at this time. ANY reason is a good reason, IMO. For starters. AND, with your IC's able to communicate, you can make sure YOUR IC shares the EA/OM with her IC. Perhaps the discussion will open up from the other side (the IC side), when that IC determines it is a "good" time to bring it up.

Please keep posting. We are all here for you.

Spidey

Well I tried to give her space this weekend... sat morn I ran a few places back by noon... then she said she needed to get away... so she was gone for 4-5 hours... she said she was going for a walk... then she came home with stuff from the store... I didn't press her but I had not asked her where she had been... that day or the day before being that both days she had been gone for 10 hours total... not that I ned to track her but that she is coming home with new clothes stuff for the house and such... and she can't even show me or discuss them with me... she is trying to make a point that she doesn't have to tell me anything...

Another thing... she took her journal, notebook, and a few books that she just bought... don't know what they are... and is carrying them around in a bag... she will not let it leave her site... she said that because I was spying on her that she had to keep something to herself... that I had no right to her life feelings... she is doing it to make me crazy... I still have time to raid the bag... but have chosen not to at this point... but why and how long cane she do this to me...

She is stabbing me and it hurts too much...

She told me the other night that she is done as of now... that we are not married... and that we are walking our own path for now... and that even if she left me that it was for HER... something she has never done... something to take care of herself...

So I asked her why she was going to counseling and she said to try to find out if she can even think about living with me and the horror I have put her through...

She thinks that it is too late... she has too much anger and disrespect for me...

So I don't know... I am sitting here in limbo... trying to keep my head up...

I can do nothing...

On a side note... she got mad that when i asked to be able to leave instead of her being able to just run all the time... she got mad when she found out that I went to the local Barnes and Noble... because that is where she has been going to read about what to do about being an emotionally abused person...

She accused me of trying to read the same stuff she was and trying to figure out what she was going to do...

WTH... I was there reading stuff to try to understand myself and things about trying to not control her and make her feel like she is able to make decisions on her own...

I bought a book called Boundaries in marriage... started it and it looked good...

It looks to deal with both sides of a marriage and how to take control of your actions... what ever side you are on...

anyway... I am scared ... scared that she is reading up on how to get out of an abusive relationship... there are many non-christian books that tell you to run from the marriage at all costs...

I just wish we could start fresh with heart felt apologies and try to start new... become friends and see where things go with a new more mature outlook on life and how to BE married.

tomorrow is my second session... hopefully I can get some pointers on how to deal with her wanting to be away from me whenever she can... she will not sit in the same room with me... I am feeling so much rejection...


enough for now...

How has the exposure gone? What do you know of the OM's commitment to stay away from her? Do you suspect communication? Does she have a cell phone?

All the other stuff is all fog-talk from her, IMO. It might be becoming more intense for two reasons: 1)contact has been maintained between them, with greater secrecy, and therefore perhaps greater intensity in the feelings, 2)contact has NOT been made between them, and she is going through the withdrawals of her "feel-good" feelings that she gets from contact with him (her drug, her addiction).

Continue to give her space. Maintain your integrity with regards to her private stuff, IMO, since you have already told her you wanted to be open and honest with her. If that is what you are expecting from her, openness and honesty, you must lead by example. At this point, if she discovers you snooping, or you feel guilty (again) and confess (again), I think you will just play into her vision of you right now. If she "expects" an invasion of privacy, by dangling it in front of you, she could be waiting for you to prove her "right."

Stay your course. Keep reading. Keep posting. Keep learning and growing for YOU. Try not to let FEAR dictate your actions. Everything happens for a reason, pray for God to give you guidance, and put it in His hands. Many times, these things in a M serve as a GREAT wake-up call to the partners, a call that forces you BOTH to learn and grow and become more.

Please know that MANY confused WS's say the types of things your WW is saying now. My H told me he saw no way out for us BUT D. And we reconciled with no D being filed. He told me he had been unhappy for years, that I was controlling, that I made all the decisions and made him feel like a second-class citizen.

Then, after IC, he realized that I didn't MAKE him do anything. Nobody can MAKE anybody do anything. That's the first thing I learned in parenting class. You can influence, lead, ask, even beg, but you cannot MAKE. It was a BIG breakthrough when my H realized that by choosing NOT to make a decision, that THAT was his decision. And he had to take responsibility for where he was at in his life ~ rather than blame me for everything. And that is a hard thing to do. Give her and her IC some time. Give yourself some time.

Take some deep breaths. IMO, you are very early into this. You need to calm down and settle in for a long ride. This process started slow, a while ago. It is not going to turn around over night. She seems committed to staying in the house with you, and that is very important. Just enjoy sitting in the same room with her, letting her be by herself. After my H left, I remember thinking how wonderful it would be sometimes to just share the same room. In that sense, you are lucky.

You are doing great. Keep on keeping on.

Spidey

I will try... I do want to apologize for my stupid behavior in the past and work on fixing my issues... but i don't know how to say I am sorry to her without her just blowing it off... I feel extremely pained to know that she feels the way she does towards me...

I do not know how to lover her right now...
I would love to do what she wants in life...
Like tell her how good she looks in the jeans she just bought... and wouldn't talk to me about... I would love to tell her I am sorry from the bottom of my heart... I would love to send her flowers... I would love to start over and learn her EN and try to fulfill them...

But I cannot do any of that... with out her feeling trapped and angry...

How does one show love in times like these?

DH - where is exposure?

Perhaps you've described it already and I've forgotten > what is the REAL story regarding her claim of "emotional abuse"?

This is likely the #1 accusation that WSs make of their BSs. In a few instances, it might be true. In most others it's grossly exaggerated - if it existed at all. (I know because I, too, was "abusive." This only lasted as long as it took for people to ask my WS, "If he's abusive, then why did you move out and leave your son?")

What I mean is, is she just reading from the script? Sure, she may even feel like she's been emotionally abused by you, but in many cases that's a manifestation of her needed justification for her affair. Revisionist history.

WAT

Well exposure has been put at bay... I talked to her... and the OM... separately... she agreed to NC... and I told him to stay away... and he agreed... and his parents know that he is to stay away from her as well... because they know something is out of line... they do not know all the details though... I am reluctant to spread the good word to too many other people... being that she is at least trying... I don't know if she could take another blow right now without doing something drastic...

She had a fit that I even called her dad a few weeks ago to say I was sorry if I wasn't myself around him... that I could not act as all is well ... he knows that she feels that she made a wrong decision to marry me so early ... and that was the extent of it... but recently she told me that she explained to him that the OM is a real friend... and that yes... she shares with him more freely than me because of the emotional abuse over the years...

I am afraid if I invade her only safe place... her dad... that I will push her over the edge...

So for now I have been giving her space... hopefully counseling will help her make sense of all this

We will see...

I do see some very minor emotional abuse... I do believe that she is trying to shift focus though...

DH,
Your WW is acting out as she is because she is just plain angry! You’re taking away her favorite hobby and leisure time activity; cheating! And so she’s punishing you for it! And you are exacerbating this situation by buying into and giving credibility to her “Charles Manson” characterization of you and her marriage!

Now could your marriage use improvement and are you perhaps guilty of insensitive and over controlling behavior? Very possibly, but abuse?! Sorry but that is not a term that should be thrown around loosely.

Plan A is not about you sitting back and allowing the WS to disparage you and the marriage with disrespect and impunity. It’s about communicating to her a reasonable and willing attitude to address your faults as a man and husband while showing her the respect of acknowledging her criticism. However, Plan A does not call for you to be simple, stupid and needy. With her current behavior, your wife is acting out, doing her own rendition of the spoiled infant who is threatening to hold her breath until she turns blue! And you are dignifying her behavior by responding in panic and with a permissive willingness to allow her to continue this way unchecked.

So where has this got you? She is now at the point where she is telling you to your face, that her marriage is over and she feels no further obligation to behave as your wife. So have you asked what this means, or have you simply stood there while she blurts out this foggy groggy claptrap?

What is her threat? Is she going to leave you for another man? Well hello! Here’s a flash for you. She already has! All you’re doing at this point warehousing her body. She is out of control and you are not doing anything to bring her back to some reasonable state in which the problems of the marriage can be reconciled.

So, in that it’s a given that you can’t control her behavior, you need to take control of what you have control over; you! She isn’t going to listen to you while she’s on her current rant so the only way to communicate with her is to SHOW her! Not tell her anything, but show her!

First of all, stop discussing relationship issues with her totally. Just stop! In fact, stop talking altogether and just learn to keep your mouth shut! She isn’t listening nor does she want to hear anything you have to say, so why are you trying to speak with her? Everything you say and do at this point is an irritant to her so don’t give her anything to be irate over. Just listen to her when she speaks and say nothing! No matter how insulting or stupid, just say nothing! Just listen and do it in a way that shows her that you’re interested in what she may be saying!

Do not respond, do not engage, do not argue, do not find fault, do not criticize, do not offer advice, just listen and say as little as you can! Be civil, be courteous be kind but be banal and say nothing and show interest!
If her actions get so far out of hand as to be intolerable, then respond but only with great civility and with great dignity. I.e. if she decides to be gone all day and all night, do not ask her where, with who and for what reason. Instead, remind her that she is still the mother of your children and you need to know her whereabouts. Also you need to know if she intends to be home to meet her responsibilities to her children. Explain that if she doesn’t you need to make alternate arrangements. And don’t be demanding or mean spirited when you pose the question! Ask it as you would to a roommate with who you share responsibility.

If she chooses to bring up relationship issues, listen! Don’t say anything or respond in any way! Just learn to listen. Understand, talk is cheap! What counts is what she does. Meanwhile, take over her household responsibilities! Laundry, feeding the children, doctor’s appointments, school meeting, play dates, preparing meals, weekend activities. Show her that if she doesn’t want to be your wife and the mother of her children that you are prepared to handle the job. And do it with love! No anger or hurt! Just do it. It won’t be for long. She just needs to see for herself where her behavior is taking you.

And for goodness sake, expose her behavior! Tell everybody about her and the OM’s inappropriate relationship! This is not a secret! It’s a fact and if it’s so wonderful and innocent then they both should be proud to have it be public knowledge.

Control the money! No matter what, you control the household income. Take away credit cards. Let her get a job. She can be anything she chooses to be but that doesn’t mean that you have to finance it. If she wants to be an independent woman, fine let her pay her own way.

Now here’s something that you will have a real problems with. Stop going places with her as a family. If she is no longer your wife, then you and the children need to plan your social lives with out her in them. No dinner’s out or dates or movies together. No family gatherings together. No meals planned with her presence in mind. If she wants emotional support, yes, give it to her. Listen to her. Be polite, kind and loving. Be her friend, in fact be her best friend. No, LB’s, no arguments.

When you finally get her attention, that’s when she’ll be ready to listen. It’s at that point that therapy and council ling will be profitable. It’s at that point that she will cease acting out and try to make sense of what her life is becoming. You have to wait however, for her to come to you. Just be patient and in control of yourself. That’s my advice.
Coach

Wow... smack me in the face why don't ya :-)

I don't mind by the way...

I hear you loud and clear...

For now I will sit and listen...

As far telling everyone about her actions... I will have to pray about that one... I still cannot bring myself to do that ... I wish I could...

I will stop letting her walk all over me... I will set my boundaries... I have recently picked up a book about boundaries... sounds great so far... if she could only read it... and see that it has both of out best interests in mind...

Anyway... thanks for the stern guidance... I can use all the help I can get!

devastatedhubby,

I thought that I would jump over here to your thread. I've read your story and with all due respect your wife sounds like a spoiled brat.

You sound as if you are very willing to admit your faults. Now answer honestly, do you feel like you are controlling? Let's have some examples of where you have tried to control her.

This is not to say that she doesn't feel controlled but it may have very little to do with you. My advice to you on this control issue is something that I read here on MBs website. If your spouse accuses you of trying to control her just tell her that you are very sorry that she feels that way and that you will do what you can so that she doesn't feel that way. But if she is merely accusing you in order to get her own way on something that is entirely different. Standing up for yourself is definitely not controlling.

My wife used to try this on me. It doesn't work anymore. I say how I feel about things and I don't back down. She is free to take my feelings into consideration or ignore them. Most times she does consider my feelings now. Before I used to get mad and basically provide her with justification to ignore my feelings. Now I've learned to control angry outburts so that deprives her of that justification.

By the way, my wife used to be a spoiled brat also, but she has matured, or maybe we both have.

I started reading the book Boundaries in marriage... and I can see that we did not start out our relationship correctly...

WE got married at 20... both young... both thinking we needed to get out into the world away from our parents... we had good times and bad... but the bad never really exploded... we did not learn hot to communicate... I thought all was well besides the fact that I knew in the back of me head that I spent alot of time with the guys and motorcycles...

I was inconsiderate at best... being late by a few hours because putty the new clutch in the mustang didn't go as planned...

This was before the cell phone days... so I could not call and say I was sorry I was going to be late... but finish it tonight or come back for a second day tomorrow... most times it was stay late and get er done...

So I was the always late for her needs type of guy...

Then there was that I liked to take naps sat and sunday afternoon... alot of times she would say lets go for a walk or go to the park... but we would end up taking a nap... my taker was alive and well...

Then i can see during heated debates... I would say... that is just stupid... as the things she was saying not that she is a stupid person... or at least that was my justification for even using the word...

I Never once called her a stupid, dumb person... I never once called her a *****... never not even out of anger...

I did joke around alot with all people... including myself... if I thought the story was funny... it was being told... sometimes the butt of the joke was me , our friends and yes my wife... she would never tell me afterwards that it hurt her that I did that...

I am a guy who is always right... I try to know everything my brain can soak up... but it makes her feel inadequate... stupid less than... can I help that I know stuff?

Here is an example... I built our house myself... I put a year of 3a.m. nights and a full time job... all for our family...

So I put in hard wood floor in the kitchen...
She really lets the water fly when doing dishes...
I ask nicely... can you try to keep the water from getting on the floor... or at least wipe it up when you are done... if water sits on the floor it will warp it...

She takes this as a personal stab... that i am trying to control her to be like me... perfect... and that the floor must be more important to me than her...

what can I do... I tried to be as nice as possible... maybe another 5 times later I say it more like... please keep the water off the floor... It cost thousand to replace and many of my hard worked hours to replace it... please show a little respect...

not as nice I know... but she is doing it on purpose... she has as much as told me so... that she does things just to make me mad...

then there is the whole money issue...

I/we had a plan... live in an apt for only one year... we did then bought our first house... so we would try to keep a decent budget with both of us working... we then decided to have a child... so she begged me to quite work... I agreed that it was best... so when things would get a little tight... and she still came home with 2-3 bags of stuff from Target that we didn't really need... i would ask... I know you like these things but we really don't need them... then she would say... I was controlling her and not letting her get things that she wanted...

On the flip side I would spend money on my cars... and I did this by buying and selling car parts and such to make money... so I justified my hobbies by making them pretty much self funding... i never took money from our paycheck to spend on my toys...


Maybe this was wrong... because it sent the message that I could spend money and she couldn't... maybe a mistake...

So the question is was I perfect... no
Was I inconsiderate... yes
Was I a little controlling... yes
Am I abusive... NO

Did we have the perfect marriage... no
Did we learn to communicate our feelings... no
Did we learn to set boundaries for the feeling of self... no

So here we are... She hates me because I control her and make her feel like I am her dad...

And I am hurt because she doesn't even want to give this a chance and try to make it with the right tools to do so...

We have not discussed the information that I have been getting here on the site... she knows nothing of this marriage builders stuff...

because she wants nothing to do with marriage... when it comes to me...

She is going to counseling to try to see if she can live a life with me in it... she thinks it is too late... that the anger and hate is set too far in her heart...

I don't know what to say other than I am waiting for her answer...

DH, the opposite of love is not hate, it is indifference. If your WW is having strong emotions for you still, even negative ones, that is a good sign, IMO.

Anger and hate are just the other side of love ~ oftentimes, love that has been hurt or abused.

Sounds like your WW has been trying to tell you many things for some years, and you are just now "hearing" her. This is good. You both have room to grow, and these A's are often just the wake-up call our M's need.

For years I had asked my H if we should see a MC. Our M was not in crisis, but I kept thinking maybe it could be MORE. H didn't want to go, thought it was a waste, that counselors are shams, etc. This A finally got us into MC, and now we know how to communicate with each other! To share our feelings, frustrations, joy, effectively.

Have you thought of sharing some of these insights you have gained with her? Many times, you might find yourself having to lead by example in this situation. Perhaps if you are open and honest with her, about things you take responsibility for, she will be open and honest with you about her feelings ~ without all the defensiveness and anger.

Spidey

Thanks all... but SS you always make me feel so much calmer...

Well a few things... I have asked her why she didn't come to me sooner... that i would have done whatever it took to make things better... But then she goes back to the she doesn't think that she was to marry me and now that her life is punishment...

she takes anything i say about marriage and trying to make it open and hones and she says that it is too much pressure... to know that where she is is so far away from where we need to be to be a married couple... she doesn't think she can do it...

so she says that she need to go to counseling to sort herself out...

but then she lashes out at me at times and says... that it is over and that it never started... and that what she had with the other guy she would never give to me... That I cannot maker her be my friend... and that I cannot maker her open up to me... and that I cannot make her enjoy life...

and it hurts so bad...

I say I am not asking for it all right now but if we could start over and start on the right foot... that things will come from God... and she won't have to do it all...

She just won't hear me...

DH, if you bring up relationship talk, IMO, her ears are already closed. Haven't you ever been so frustrated with someone, seen them in such a negative light, that everything that comes out of their mouth, just the sound of their voice, is irritating? This is where your WW is with you right now.

Follow Coach's advice. DON'T start the talks. When she does, just listen. Nod your head and HEAR (you don't have to AGREE) what she is saying to you.

There is no room to reason with her right now. Do not try to change her mind, give her evidence, or argue her feelings. NOTHING will bring her back faster to you, IMO, than ACKNOWLEDGING her feelings. Saying, "I hear what you are saying." OR, not saying anything at all.

So, after all these years of you kinda doing your own thing, she finally has your attention. By developing an inappropriate relationship with another man, she FINALLY has your attention. And now that you see a "problem," you want to "fix" it. Because you are a man, and that is what you do, you "fix" things.

But see, your WW really doesn't see a need to fix anything. First, in her mind, there is no way to fix what just doesn't work. IMO, something NEW must be created.

Coach has some wonderful ideas. Take up her household chores.

Let's take the floor/dishwashing incident, and take a closer look. I understand you just briefed us on this sitch, but here is my take on the limited information, from a woman/homemaker/person-who-usually-does-the-dishes perspective.

Not everyone has an appreciation for thousand dollar floors (personally I do, but my H doesn't really). And you did that project, because you enjoy doing it, it gave you some type of gratification to build your home. Financial reasons might be part of it, but if you don't enjoy creating that type of stuff, you find a way to pay someone else to do it, IMO (H and I won't even consider building a DECK, we just aren't interested ~ BUT, I have painted the entire inside of my house, by myself, because I like it "just so").

So, you have a great passion/love/respect of these floors, because you 1)know how much they cost, 2)remember the hard work it took to get them done, and 3)you have pride in the way they look. All of these things are GREAT.

Your WW might not share all, or even any, of the above. She might be outwardly appreciative, she might really like them. However, they are floors for the KITCHEN. Where there is lots of action/water/food/liquids/traffic/STUFF.

Honestly . . . IF they got warped, SO WHAT?!? In the big scheme of things, I mean BIG, life/death, love/marriage/divorce, . . . SO WHAT?

IF it is such a big deal to you, and not to her, my suggestion is that whenever that became apparent to you, instead of asking over and over (which could begin to sound like nagging/criticism/anal-retentiveness) for her to respect your floors, YOU should have begun doing the dishes. You cannot control anyone besides yourself.

OR, perhaps brainstormed WITH her, and her dishwashing preferences (with all her water and everything), what you could possibly put down on those floors to protect them (ie, a large kitchen rug or something).

It is NOT a good sign when someone starts doing something MORE just because they know it irritates their partner.

So, that is my take on one of the instances you mentioned. What do you think of that?

Spidey

I totally agree on the not talking to her about the issues... I will limit my responses...

I have already been hearing her out and agreeing to her feelings... but not areeing about the situation... I got that point a while ago :-)

She got my attention alright... she could have done it by sitting me down and telling me how she felt... I can promise you that...

What do you mean by something new...

I have already done the 180 on house and kid duty... I have been giving 110%... she always points out that she didn't ask me to do it so don't expect anything back for it... kinda the little too late type of thing...

I did build the house for HER... for her to be comfortable in raising our kids... and because I have the ability to do so and not the funds...

Did we know it would take a toll on our marriage... yes... did I think we would be where we are today... NO I would not have done it knowing she was gonna burst and go looking for something else...

I see your point about the floors... I just thought that after telling her about the consequences of leaving water on the floor... that she would want to be responsible enough to not ruin them...

Alot of times I tell her something like that and then later in life she comes back to me and says... I think we need new floors in the kitchen because they are warped... and then I have to start pulling out my hair... duh... that is why I explained it to you in the first place... and now you are asking me to take care of your mess...

You are right... floors are not a good reason to make a point about if it is going to cause a divorce:-)

I never thought of just doing the dishes myself... it just seemed to be that way... I get home from work... I cook dinner then she cleans up while I get to play with the kids for the first time all day...

The key is to communicate to each other how we feel about the situation so that we can agree on a plan of action to resolve the issue with both of our interests in mind...


What I think of that is that you sound like a woman!!!

And you are right... thanks again for shedding light on my flooring issue:-)

I had a good session today with my counselor... he is going to talk to her counselor to try and get my W to sign the papers to let the counselors talk...

He thinks this will bring alot of things to light...

He agrees with the avoid conflict with her in regards to the issues... So I am not bringing anything up...

I can make it... I know I can... wait I think I can... ok maybe I can't :-)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The key is to communicate to each other how we feel about the situation so that we can agree on a plan of action to resolve the issue with both of our interests in mind... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exactly. To do this, though, BOTH partners have to be committed to finding the solution with everyone feeling good about it. I am glad you see the vision for the future, though.

Sometimes, our S's just do not have the same priorities/thoughts as we do.

For instance, my H does things all the time, NOT on purpose, that make huge messes and cause damage that is expensive. And before our separation, it stressed me out. I kept thinking, "WHY do you leave your water cup under the refrigerator water thingie, then go to sleep in the living room and flood the kitchen floor (and yes, it got warped)?"

Or, "Why do you lock your keys in the car, while it is RUNNING, and not realize it until it is almost out of gas (he didn't realize until AFTER they had eaten, the entire development team from his office, and I had to drive across town to open the door).

Not only did the water refrigerator thing warp our floors, it also broke a $300 part in the fridge that I had to have someone come and fix (it was 2 months AFTER the warranty expired).

These things used to really upset me. I felt like he wasn't responsible (but he gets up and goes to work every day, for the past 15 years, to support our family).

Now, I look at it and laugh. That's just who he is! He has driven my car into the side of the house (while trying to get it closer to the walkway so my disabled mother didn't have to walk as far in the rain), crushed my outside light up against the house while helping get a swingset into someone's pick-up truck, and broke the lock on our van ($275) playing "keep out" with the boys.

I could go on and on. And I used to go on and on, reminding him each time he did something new, of everything he had already done. Made him feel that I didn't believe he could make good decisions, that he was incompetent, that he couldn't do anything right.

Then my former best friend, the OW, came along. She told him how wonderful he was. She told him he DID make good decisions, that he was competent, that he did LOTS of stuff right. Admiration.

Not until H's A did I understand ANY of that. All I could see was MY point of view. I cannot regret my H's A, because we FINALLY learned to communicate. We finally have the opportunity to have a FABULOUS M, because we have learned what a healthy M is. 8 months of MC later! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hang in there. I hope you know I'm not criticizing you about anything. I am simply trying to show you how many different perspectives there are to every issue.

Spidey

I have another question... there have been no blow ups for a few days... that is because we are not talking at all... I don't know what kind of message I am sending if I just sit there and nothing is said... is this letting her control the situation... does it say take your space... or... I am just as mad at you and I am not gonna talk to you either...

What am I to do about the general silence... I understand not talking about the issues... but no contact between us cannot be good can it?

Like someone else said here... silence is not fixing anything... I am willing to let it go for a while longer... but I don't know how much more silence I can take... it seems like it is letting her not deal with the issues at hand...

I am not loosing it... just questioning... how can this be good...