O -

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">THIS IS A PROBLEM WITH YOUR WW.Not you.We have all made mistakes but two wrongs do NOT make a right.You are trying to better yourself and take care of your kids.And,trying to be open to making your marriage better.When you know that you are doing all you can then you cannot fault yourself,OK? Even some of those in recovery STILL deal with painful cr** from their FWS's that just don't really understand hurts their BS.You have to learn how to "detach" from that a little,one way is to expect it as part of their behavior.When you know it's coming,it may hurt a little less.It's still sickening but part of the addiction.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Everything you are saying makes perfect sense - to my head. It's getting it to my heart that's the problem. I know I have a long way to go, and to tell the truth, the future is terrifying me. I just found out that all this crap that just happened caused me to forget an appointment I had at work - now I have to make that up somehow.

I keep getting this sickening feeling that I should just grab the kids and run for Montana or somewhere and hide forever. I know that would never work, but it sure sounds nice....

David

I haven't read your whole story, only what's been going on today.

So, if this has been suggested, sorry.

When I first found out what was happening I experienced the first panic attacks of my life.

I was pretty much a walking anxiety attack and found myself unable to function. Here I was with three little kids to take care and unable to care for myself, let alone them.

I hi-tailed it to my doctor who prescribed an anti-anxiety/mild tranquilier for me. It didn't knock me out or turn me into a zombie.

It DID allow me to focus at work and on my kids. It took away that "zingy" feeling running through every cell in my body. I cried still, but not uncontrollable sobs that caused my whole body to ache the next day.

It wasn't a magic pill and I only took it for a few months. I believe it helped me to be able to control my anxiety enough to learn to cope with the stress and uncontrollable changes in my life.

My uneducated guess is that the anxiety is controlling you and your thoughts and your actions.

See a doctor and ask what they think. What you are feeling is normal for someone in the situation that you are. Don't ever question that. Your body and minds reaction to that stress is unique for each person.

Maybe it isn't what you need. But talk to your doctor to see if they can help you help yourself right now.

Hi Faith -

I took your advice in advance - I'm on Prozac and Xanax. That helps a lot....

Thanks <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Ooops - two posts

<small>[ January 26, 2005, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: tanelornpete ]</small>

I just figured out something that I'm going to do right now that should blow my wife out of her knickers (hopefully in our room, tonight - heh heh - just kidding) - I'm going to take my daughter to get her hair cut. I've never done that before - should be quite a surprise. DD has wanted it cut for a long time, but mom hasn't had the time (except to get her own done)

Wish me luck. Hopefully it will still be hair when they get done! Supposedly this lady is really good. Highly recommended.

David the Dad

***She doesn't want me around, except to take care of her at home - doesn't want to go anywhere with me, she has started coming up with various excuses for not seeing the MC on Friday.....***

These are the actions of a woman who likes having a husband, but is not married. They are two differnt things. She likes this arrangment and will bully you with anger to keep you going along with it. Why? Because it works for her.

No married woman in her right mind goes to a "formal" with any man but her husband -- but the woman you describe is not married. She just likes having a husband. Pete, she will do this just as long as you are willing to tolerate it. She will never, ever stop it on her own. It's worked too well for her up to now. What are you going to do?
Mulan

Hi Mulan.....

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">These are the actions of a woman who likes having a husband, but is not married. They are two differnt things. She likes this arrangment and will bully you with anger to keep you going along with it. Why? Because it works for her.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's been this way for most of our marriage. Thats why I sometimes wonder if its more that I'm addicted to her rather than love her. I can't tell the difference. I love it when she's around, but we've never really been 'together,'' if you know what I mean. That's a large part of what caused me to fall for that other woman four years ago. Thought I could have both, I guess...

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No married woman in her right mind goes to a "formal" with any man but her husband -- but the woman you describe is not married. She just likes having a husband. Pete, she will do this just as long as you are willing to tolerate it. She will never, ever stop it on her own. It's worked too well for her up to now. What are you going to do?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mulan, I don't know. She'll probably just leave if I ask her to stop. I asked her why she didn't want me to go to the Formal - she said because all of her friends were there and it would make them uncomfortablke because they know what's going on between us (whatever that means). And then. to top that off, she said that the OM, George, would be there and that would be an uncomfortable thing for me. She said she would feel uncomfortable going to a function where Leslie (the OW in my EA) was. I said I thought she would feel uncomfortable even having me go to a function where that OW was. She didn't get my hint, apparently.

So I don't know what I'm going to do. This is a decision that wiull most likely tear up my family, damage my children - and possibly cause me the total loss of custody. This is a Motherhood state, men rarely get custody. I've already been warned about that by an attorney. So I'm trying to decide: do I just withdraw, live with my kids, let her run till she hangs herself on something stupid, try to call her on it and see if it wakes her up, or just go thru with ending this.

I don't know. I'm just too tired. And I still feel guilty for my affair - it ruined the OWs family and hurt my wife and kids. There is so much that has to be sorted out.

Hopefully the MC will be some help. I actually have two of them that I made appointments with - accidentally - (not thinking clearly, apparently) one at 2 and one at 3 on Friday. I have to cancel one - still trying to sort out who might be more helpful for our family.

My daughter's hair looks wonderful. I am really curious about what my wife's reaction to that will be...

David

To Mulan -

When you wrote

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">These are the actions of a woman who likes having a husband, but is not married. They are two differnt things. She likes this arrangment and will bully you with anger to keep you going along with it. Why? Because it works for her.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">They struck a chord deep within me, but it took me a while for it to sink in. Those five sentences have captured my entire marriage. I mean, exactly. I was a prime candidate for her fro the start because I was so afraid of losing another marriage that I would do anything to keep mine. And even when we've fought (and we've had terrible fights) she's always won, either by hurting me so much I gave in, making me feel guilty till I gave in, calling in her HUGE brothers to make sure I stayed in line, totally withdrawing from me.

I'm not claiming innocence in this marriage. I've been a jerk, sometimes lazy, sometimes demanding, disrespectful or dishonest. But I've always been HERE. For her, for the kids. Except for one four month period where I thought I could have a good friend and a wife at the same time. But when I came back, nothing had changed - I was just guilty and she knew it. And I knew it. And I hated myself for it. And so does she.

So I'm still stuck at your question: What am I going to do?

I just think I had my windsheild cleaned. I can see some of where I'm going. And it's not the right place. I need sleep. And love.

tane,

In case you have missed this you have been married for how long? And this has been a pretty much constant behavior on her part. What happened in your first marriage has little to do with what is going on in this marriage other than you have allowed yourself to be run over because of the baggage from the 1st marriage.

You have no doubt heard the saying: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When you find yourself in a deep hole, the first thing you should do is "put the shovel down". </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think the first thing you need to do is "put the baggage down" Tane. It is time to walk away from the first marriage. What you have or have not done has not affected how she treats you has it?

Soooo, I am going to say something I don't believe I have ever said in almost 9000 posts (they don't count constant responses to the same thread either), I think it is time you put the baggage down with this marriage. It may shake her up, but I would NOT count on it. I would deliver the evidence of her affair to her family, and I would walk away from this, because from everything you have said this is NOT about NEEDS being met, this is about HER issues.

I wonder if you picked this woman because you felt you needed to be punished for your first marriage. I have no clue.

I will probably regret saying what I have said to you tomorrow, so take what I said very very carefully because it pains my soul to say these things. I actually think I need to stop posting after this, if this is the best I can do, but right now it is the best I can do.

Be a good father to your child. And really think about this very very carefully. Your W NOT asking you to this formal is huge and that coupled with her affair and the fact that "everyone" of her fellow students know she has cheated on you, is NOT a good sign.

God Bless,

JL

PS: I am really sorry for having said what I have said, but I won't BS someone here this stuff is too serious. Time for plan B and thus see a lawyer to protect yourself.

hi Just Learning:

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In case you have missed this you have been married for how long? And this has been a pretty much constant behavior on her part. What happened in your first marriage has little to do with what is going on in this marriage other than you have allowed yourself to be run over because of the baggage from the 1st marriage.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I didn't want to fail at a marriage again - that was the baggage I brought from that first marriage. I just didn't know how to be a husband anyway - in either marriage.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Be a good father to your child. And really think about this very very carefully. Your W NOT asking you to this formal is huge and that coupled with her affair and the fact that "everyone" of her fellow students know she has cheated on you, is NOT a good sign.

God Bless,

JL

PS: I am really sorry for having said what I have said, but I won't BS someone here this stuff is too serious. Time for plan B and thus see a lawyer to protect yourself. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've known this for hours and I've been crying for hours. My kids are freaked out, Dad doesn't cry like this, I took my Xanax, I took a Valium, nothing has helped. I've seen it coming from the day I found out about this affair. It's just so hard. It's just so wrong. I've worked my a** off to be the kind of man any woman would want to be with, and all that's happened is I've improved, and she's gone farther away, while telling me how much she appreciated what I'm doing for her. I don't want a D, I don't even know how to do a Plan B - all I've done is work on learning LBs and filling ENs. All I want is to have a home for my kids and a wife to love. That's not too much to ask.

I still have to think. I can't function this way - today has been the single hardest day of my life, and I've had some hard ones.

Calm down.

My point is that the state of your marriage seems to have little to do with how good a husband you have been or how hard you have tried. It has to do with your W's vision of what a good marriage is. As Mulan pointed out, your W's vision of a marriage is NOT consistent with what most people feel a real marriage should be.

Can your W change? Yes, if she feels the need to. But if she does not, there is little to be done by you. You have been with her 18 years, you three children have grown and are getting ready to move on to the lives of their own right?

So stop, calm down, and realize you have NO CONTROL over her or her decisions. You know she is using anger to defend her failures as a W and even a mother. You know she is blame shifting.

When she says something really annoying look her in the eye and say "I will no longer accept, the blame for the things YOU have done and are doing." and walk away. It will drive her nuts, but it will gradually enforce that you are going to NOT accept her treatment of you any longer. AND Tane don't accept it, don't take it to heart, just tell her "I won't accept that". and leave. If she counters with "what will you do", look at her and say I will not accept it and leave.

It is time you began to realize you are NOT a failure, and that she should be treating you far better than she has, and that her affair is NOT ACCEPTABLE no matter what the state of the marriage.

Tane do you understand what I am saying? I hope so. Time to stand up and set your boundaries. That is part of plan A, as is disclosure. Do both.

Must go.

God Bless,

JL

JL -

I understand your point - and Mulan's. And Orchid's. All too well. This is a major shift in my entire view of everything that has made my life over the past 20 years. It means that there is an enormous poosibility that I will lose this marriage - that I will have to choose to walk away from it - something that is almost a fundamental contradiction to my belief in marriage - from a religious as well as philosophical - and even emotional point of view. It means I face the loss of my children, my home - all the things that people face when they look at divorce. It means that I may have almost no value in my wife's eyes - a humiliating thought.

I wonder how long that's been the truth -if it is. On the other hand - I could be completely wrong about her and I could have hurt her in some way so deeply that there is no healing for that wound. I don't believe in 'incompatibility'. I believe that anyone can work out a marriage, if both partners are willing. But I'm facing an ever growing reality that we've not really been married for years - that my feeling that we've just been roommates is moe true than I thought.

And I am worried about my children. I don't know what will become of them - I've been their foundation for years while mom has worked, or gone to school, or gone to parties, or wherever she goes when she's gone. Am I taking too much onto myself? Of course I am. Do I take too much blame? Of course I do. Do I feel guilty for every wrong in our marriage? Of course I do - it's my marriage , for God's sake. I promised to do everything I could to make it work, to my wife, to her family, to my family, to friends, to church members - and it's failed. Who is responsible if the person taking the vows isn't? Did I do everything wrong? No. But I can't escape the feeling that I could have done more - that there must be something else I must do....

Tane,

I cannot fault you for your thoughts. But, I can say that you have no control over your W's thoughts and views. Further, I don't know the state you live in but in many you will NOT lose your children completely, and from your W's behavior you will have them far more than you realize because they will cramp her "style".

Is there more that you can do? Actually, I think so, but it has to be different from what you have done. To quote Dr. Phil "How's that workin for ya?" It has not. Does she respect you? No not right now, did she ever I would hope so, but in the A the answer is a definite NO.

Will she respect you in the future? Only if you begin to set your boundaries. You have master part of Plan A, but you forgot the rest of it. It is about setting boundaries, exposure of the A, as well as meeting needs, not doing LB's. You cannot control this A or her behavior, so in that light...THERE IS NOTHING MORE FOR YOU TO DO. The only person you can control is yourself, and in that regard I believe it is time you stood up, realized you have been a good father and husband, and set your boundaries.

It is time for you to refuse to to accept her statements as having ANY merit, because they don't. She is 40 years old. She is full of herself, and she may well be going through MLC. I don't know, but I do know that you cannot change any of that.

What you do is be the best Dad you can be, collect all of the evidence of the affair, see a lawyer to protect yourself and your children, and standfast. It may even require you going to plan B with her moving out. It may require that you cease to financially support her and her degree. But, it sure will require that you NOT ACCEPT her behavior and statements to you, they are NOT TRUE.

If you have put her through law school, and if you do divorce many states will require her to pay you a portion of all she earns from that degree.

My point, get information about divorce, about saving the marriage,about the affair and who it is with. Expose the affair and set your boundaries.

Right now she does not respect you, so you had better respect yourself. Your children are looking to you for leadership and to learn how to handle life, show them the man you are.

Please think about this Tane.

God Bless,

JL

I'm turning it over to God tonight. Tomorrow, I'll have to do what has to be done.

David

David,

U R browbeating yourself unneccessarily (sp???)....

Pay attention to JL. He is one of our 'wise ones' <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ..... kinda like that big brother/uncle/dad/grandfather - even to the young ones (lol)..... to many of us here.

I don't see you as the one on the losing end of this deal even if the family breaks up. She has relied on you. Who have you relied on?

Think about that for a while. When it all comes out in the wash..... the WS can't hold a candle to the endurance that the BS has put up with....even now.

Don't give up on yourself or your family. It will be an obstacle and struggle for sure but the rewards are the smiling faces of you and your children. One day when your W returns to the land of the sane, her smiling face w/b there also.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

All the best,
L.

Thanks Orchid -

JL - you wrote

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>What you do is be the best Dad you can be, collect all of the evidence of the affair, see a lawyer to protect yourself and your children, and standfast. It may even require you going to plan B with her moving out. It may require that you cease to financially support her and her degree. But, it sure will require that you NOT ACCEPT her behavior and statements to you, they are NOT TRUE.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm contacting a lawyer tomorrow- er - later today, the ony problem I'm havin is in collecting evidence of the affair: it does mean I have to go back into her computer. I already know she is talking to him via text messages - I've sen them daily on her phone - but all they reveal is where he is at the time - I assume she's asking where he is. With a lot of her friends at school involved, I can't really just show up for a lunch or anything - she'd have ample warning just 'cause anyone of them could spot me on campus. I have a great friend who is a PI, but Cheryl knows him very well - she'd know why he was there.

They used to be friends - he's not real happy with her now - he's the one who tracked her to the OMs house. I can use him for PI work (photography, etc) but I still feel hesitant to delve into what she's hiding - it seems to me, if she's hiding, something, I already know something is wrong.

Her parents already know about the affair - at least, what she told them. I think her sister does, too. So I am not sure of what more exposure there is to do.

I am reading Surviving An Affair - it is very helpful. I will need some help thinking over how much time to work on plan A - I guess I've already started it to a certain extent, and also help on how to request NC from her - they are together on a daily basis due to school schedules. I guess I need to plan for a Plan B, too, although I realistically don't see her movng out - she wants me to. I'd love to - we pay way too much rent for our budget (I've already started working that over - she's gonna find a WHOLE LOT LESS cable channels tonight).

All the help anyone can give, 2x4s included, will be appreciated.

And I have to admit one final thing - I had a very vivid dreamn about Leslie (my OW from my affair 4 years ago). In the dream we were happy. I know it's a dream, but it scared me anyway...My thoughts should NOT be going that way....

David

Tanelornpete,


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Her parents already know about the affair - at least, what she told them. I think her sister does, too. So I am not sure of what more exposure there is to do.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What she told them??!! I think her sister does too?? That is not exposure. That's like trusting the condemned man to load the firing squad's rifles. (OK...that analogy is a little out there)

You must be doing these things. Also, key loggers are free for a trial period usually, I've used this one with good results. This may provide the proof you need. This is not snooping....this is "affair research" to quote WAT.

Also exposure should begin at OM end of things. You can't do that until you know who and where he is. You also require proof for the nay-sayers and potentially further court battles if that has a bearing in your locale.

If what JL says is accurate, the I'magooddadandIdidmydaughtershair approach will not be effective. This boat has to be rocked...Hard!! My poor judgment led me down the wrong path initially. I proved what a heck of a guy I was...now my WW has her own house and I see my kids half time. Make well thought out decisions followed by well thought out actions. Do you know how many airmen died during the war because they could not bring themselves to leave the comforts of a doomed airplane to experience the salvation of a functional parachute in the cold dark environs of the exterior. You may have to leave your comfort zone, you have some very experienced MBers here offering to help and support you. Listen....read......call a counselor as well.

Ok, I snooped on my wife's computer agan this morning. Found enough to know that the affair is still going on, and that she is talking about it with several of her friends, all of whom advise her that my spying on her is not only trust-eroding, but 'policing' - controlling her. I did notice that on the 18th - 19th she was also looking for a small house where she can move with the kids, and that she plans on moving things out of here a bit at a time while I am at work.

She complained about me being 'sullen and mad' one day, and 'whining' on another - although that was a while ago. Shows I'm not working my plan A very well - need to do that a lot better. In her latests posts (the past week or so) she hasn't mentioned leaving me being so horrible - so maybe I'm coming across as better.

However, I think the affair has gone to aa full PA, if it hadn't before - her friends are keeping spare makeup, etc, over at their house so that she can shower and clean herself up before she gets home. I've already requested NC from her, I probably should ask for the letter, although that may speed up her moving out, which may have been put on the back burner....

At least, reading SAA is helping me. I don't want to go thru with a lot of this, but maybe things can be stopped before it goes too far with help from the MC - if she goes to the meeting tomorrow. If not, I guess I'll just keep up with plan A, and like I asked earlier - I need some assistance preparing a plan B letter.

David

Tane,

You now know why you need a lawyer PRONTO. Further, call your friend the PI, and ask him for advice and perhaps a referal to a PI she doesn't know.

Next, talk to her parents. The will precipitate a strong reaction from her, but it may also produce someone she respects besides her "friends" that will NOT think this is cool behavior for a mother of 3.

Time to step up Tane. There are no guarentees in this stuff, but doing nothing will put in a place you don't want to be.

God Bless,

JL

Hi JL

First off, like I wrote last night, I just turned the whole thing over to God and slept on it. Woke up this morning in a lot clearer frame of mind. OK, so my wife is in an active A, she is hiding it from me, and she has the support of her friends. She is lying to me about a great many things, and is, for the most part, although remaining aloof, still friendly, hasn't been acting hateful as she did when I first confronted her. That may be bnecause I've just been doing my Plan A here at home and leaving her to do what she wants - which could be a mistake.

I did realize this. My wife has a very strong conscience. And it's affecting her. She hasn't been able to keep food down since this thing started, she's lost all kinds of weight, she is depressed and on medication. She even admitted to me yesterday that it was panic that was affecting her. I didn't pursue it, but I know it's her conscience that is bothering her - it hasn't been seared enough yet to be numb. So I do know I have some time.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You now know why you need a lawyer PRONTO. Further, call your friend the PI, and ask him for advice and perhaps a referal to a PI she doesn't know.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am contacting a lawyer this morning, but as for the PI, I'm not sure I need one - I believe in my wife, and I trust God - if I know her at all, this affair will end somehow and her conscience will drive her nuts till she makes things right. I already know who the guy is - he and I used to get along well - would have been very good friends (as I can say about many of those she has dragged into this mess - That's a consequence she's going to have to face later, should things work out between us.)

Jl - I do have some more questions about plan A: I've read so many conflicting things about it that I'm not certain of what exactly it is. I do know my part - work on making my life, fix the problems I know I have, learn my LBs intimately and fix 'em as much as God gives me the strength to do... Learn her ENs and try to fill them. Make our house a wonderful home. But here I am stuck. I get from some people that I should be showering her with love, from others that I should let her suffer the consequence of losing my trust. My instincts want to write her love letters, send her cards, etc.

I've been leaving a note on her pillow each night that just says Goodnight - nothing particularly mushy, and she told me she really appreciated that. But is that enabling her to get ENs filled from both me and the OM? It seems that I should work on doing all I can to make her feel that she is wanted and appreciated, and that I know I have hurt her in the past and want to heal that - but how do you suggest I go about that?

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Next, talk to her parents. The will precipitate a strong reaction from her, but it may also produce someone she respects besides her "friends" that will NOT think this is cool behavior for a mother of 3.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not sure what to say to her parents - should I fax over the emails I found? Should I just call them back and let them know how much this hurts, and that I still love her very much and want this to be fixed? She's already pissed at me for telling them she had something to say to them (I don't know what she said, but she usually tells the truth, so I imagine it was a lot). Here, my instinct is to call them and ask for advicce - they've been my parents, too, for a long time.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Time to step up Tane. There are no guarentees in this stuff, but doing nothing will put in a place you don't want to be.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can already tell you that a NC letter is out of the question at this time - she has no intention of ending this right now, although she is giving him 'space' because he is sc***ing another woman. And he is giving her 'space' to get things taken care of here. I know that this affair cannot last - but it does not mean that she will want to come back, I understand that, although I'm hoping that as the fog clears, she will remember that we used to be good friends, even though things were rough between us many times - we did not have MB to help.

I'm going to ask her to do the EN quesionaire again today - I'm going to ask her to do it to show me how I failed. She may do it along that line: she keeps telling her friends that she wants to be friends with me 'after the divorce'. Maybe she'll take it as a way to help her screwed up husband (yes, all of her friends are advising her that I need months of counselling to get healed from my evil ways - while my IC told me last time that she thought I was doing very well and that I didn't need to come back unless something came up that I might need help with...)

You guys are the most help. If I could afford to talk to Steve, I would, but right now, I need to concentrate on getting a cheaper place, and ridding myself of all kinds of unnecessary bills.....

You know, the thing that is bothering me most today is the fact that she keeps talking to me aout all the things we are going to do together in the future - but planning on moving out. That has to be the FOG, riht?

David