I think the danger in presuming that cerri could and should have the best possible marriage there is based on her background is that we can forget that it takes TWO,as someone else ponted out,to make the marriage work.It's not driven by one person.Yes SHE could be doing all she can in the world to make it the best marriage she knows how from her experience and the knowledge we have about this issue but if her WH is going to be an,well you know,then it's not possible,IMO, to maintain that kind of situation forever.

All take and no give from a WS isn't a healthy way to live or be in a marriage.This is how many of us feel I think.We,as BS's,are here,trying to learn and educate ourselves on marriage and rebuilding yet our WS's are out there doing who knows what and with whomever,living La Vida Loca.

You would think that having all sorts of protection boundaries in place would prevent this from happening in a marriage.It should be that way but it cannot when there is a spouse who does not maintain these boundaries for themselves,especially if they already have a past with adultery issues.The failure is that the person is not invested in the marriage and family.The easier path is the one of entitlement and self pleasure.

So even though it is very disconcerting to think that cerri's marriage is vulnerable,just like the rest of us folks,it is also encouraging to know that she,as well as the rest of us,will retain all the skills for a happy marriage whether that be with her current WH or another man one day.We have to be the pioneers for better marriages.The rest of society out there isn't doing so well based on the stats.It has to start somewhere and we are it.

O

***Surprise! You can be a loving, giving, wise, and educated partner, and your spouse can still do it.***
GC

I'm not surprised by this, GC. It's been my experience all along. I learned a long time ago that I could do everything I could think of to be close to my husband and make him happy -- and he was, by his own account -- but on Monday morning when he went back to work, it wouldn't mean a thing. It was like it never happened. All that attention and togetherness did absolutely nothing to keep other women out of our relationship.

Some people are confirmed cake-eaters from the start. They think this is a GREAT way to live and their only problem is how to convince YOU that you shouldn't worry about it. My husband still believes that ignoring me and going out with the office trash was perfectly okay because "they were Work People," and that *I* am the one with the problem if I don't like this.

If these people think they have an excuse that lets them go out on pretend dates with someone else, they will never let it go and will insist that YOU are the crazy one if you don't understand that. In my H's case, it's his work situation. For someone else, it might be a hobby of some kind. Either way, if they can find a protected situation where spouses are kept out anyway, then whatever goes on there MUST be okay. The fact that "spouses being kept out" is the part that's not okay will NEVER get through the concrete surrounding their heads.

My point is -- I wish MB would address this kind of situation too, instead of clinging to the message that "if you meet your spouse's ENs, they will not turn to someone else." That only makes the BS feel worse when they DO turn to someone else -- not because they "need" them, but because they can. This is what happened to Cerri and it sure is what happened to me.

Maybe I will start a separate thread on this and see if I can get some responses.
Mulan

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The Question We've All Wondered--If Cerri Can't Make a Successful Marriage How Can I? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I believe we are looking at the wrong person here. Penny is not the person who chose to have the ONS. Penny's H seems to have character flaws that he has not corrected so therefore his behavior is not changing.

His choices should not put Penny under scrutiny. Penny should be supported and embraced in her time of need.

Penny, my prayers and thought are with you. I will respectively give you time to gather yourself and I will anxiously wait for your return to the boards.

God bless you,
KY

<small>[ January 31, 2005, 10:51 AM: Message edited by: kyellow4 ]</small>

~~When spouses fail to meet their commitment to a marriage...there are many different levels that vows can be broken. Sexual fidelity is only one them. In your own marriage for instance, your husband is basically a good man....but is addicted to drugs, can't hold a job etc. But because there is no infidelity he is somehow more forgivable? There are many here that might say..."wow, why stay with this loser?" but they aren't married to him...they don't love him....do they?~~

You are very true starfish....but when reading my thread HOW many people told me to stay with my husband, help him, and re-build our marriage? NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON. In fact, they told me to move out and that it was too late. Yet, when I say that about someone else's marriage, I am scrutinized.

~~CapitolC, you really need to first educate youself on infidelity before giving advice on it...~~

You really need to read my posts. Over and over gain I have stated that I am giving my OPINION. The ONLY time I offered advice was in the thread "I know this is normal, but..." because she had been trying for 2 DAYS to get a response to her problem while everyone was pre-occupied with Cerri's mess, when Cerri doesn't even want any comments, opinions, advice, what have you. I gave that woman advice and even told her that it may not be good advice and was based on MY experiences.

Having a different opinion/view DOES NOT make me un-educated, ill-informed, or mis-leading and I'm disappointed in those of you who have said that. I could read every book you threw at me but it doesn't mean I'll agree with it. Just because 'you tell me to read' it does mean it's the law and it does not mean I have to agree with what it says, therefore, I WILL display a different view when posting. I have every right to post here, just as you do.

I was chastised for not promoting the concept of 're-building' Cerri's marriage. What did you all tell me to do about my own marriage again? Whats that?? Move out??....Yeah, exactly.

I love you CJ...good thread.

But what I would like to add here is this...
1)Even professionals need to move away from their problems to get good perspective. You don't think as clearly, you don't do the things you might advise somebody else to do etc. I know, I am in health care and incidentally, have minor in psych w/several master's level classes. Incidentally, I know about the dopamine/seratonin link and have heard of it for years. Classic example: I worked with a cardiologist for a good while who had a high cholesterol level and was about 50 lbs overweight. Meanwhile, he would advise his patients CORRECTLY and give them accurate advice. Problem? He was too close to his OWN problem. Happens to the best of us. And that is the time when you SEEK THE HELP OF A PRO WITH EVEN MORE CREDENTIALS THAN YOU HAVE. That's what I did and that's in the end what this doc chose to do. It's so hard to even attempt to think yourself outta a paper bag when problem is this close to home.
2)I think everybody here means well. And we do. As for me, I pray each day that somebody here, hopefully alot, have a different outcome than mine. That some families are saved. And at the same time, I encourage people to wisely work on their marriages. And unfortunately we also see some people who are being incredibly used. I try to let people see both sides of issues. We should encourage people here at MB to work on their marriages, but not blow smoke up their rears' either. It's a fine line to walk, but you gotta do it. Would you want somebody to tell you what you WANT to hear or what is MOST likely the truth? And it's hard. I know that firsthand. When I finally got really tough on myself, I saw it and a whole different p.o.v. came into play.
3)What to do with a serial cheater? What
to do? Ultimately that will reside with us. It is our decisions to either stay or go. But imho, when there's a serious issue such as abuse, whether mental or physical, that has to be addressed and not taken lightly. I see alot of times here that these serial cheaters don't really reform. Some do, a few. But not tons. And what is my opinion on that? I think some serial cheaters are addicted to the high they get from a new conquest. Especially if there is a pattern. Her H has a pattern. That has to be addressed. My old college bf was editor of law review and was a whiz in law school. He once told me that our present laws in society today and how they are revised are based on past actions and how the legalities played out. In psych I learned many times that past behaviors are a good barometer of future actions. Incidentally, I worked alot in brain functional work as well...So if the WS has a definite pattern, it may be harder for that person to break their cycle unless serious intervention is done...and I mean with a psychiatrist and a multi-disciplined health and psych team approach. Can't be blown off. But there comes a time definitely that somebody who has ANY form of training in either health care or psych or any of the healing arts, imho, will get some sort of grip and realize the seriousness of continuing to give chances to somebody who's committed serious crimes against his family and imho, against women.
4)There are certain types of people who are by definition resistant to changes. I was advised by both the PHD I saw and the M.S. that I saw that my xh was most likely a sociopath. These are repeat offenders and lack conscience. They are excellent at giving lip service and pretending geniuses. Most likely, therapy doesn't help them either. Something just isn't working in their brains right basically.

We can bash people here all day. It won't do any good. We can give out warm fuzzies too. I think it's best to let Cerri know we are praying for her wisdom and healing right now. And for her to make good decisions now. It's not the time to bash anybody nor say whatever to make them feel good. I think she needs time to decide WISELY what to do with this guy.

As for me? I realize this. CJ asked how can I have a good marriage if this therapist can't? What you gotta reallize is this. About 50% of the population believes as most of us do here..they value marriages and families. About the remaining 50% don't. I figure it depends on who you align yourself with and how HONEST they are you when you're dating. As for me, I think I've got a bright future. There are certain warning signals that come from serial cheaters and liars and yes...sociopaths. I know now how to stay away from them and when a hint of it comes around, I bolt. I learned how to work on recognizing EN's and think I am good in that dept. now. MB has taught me alot. And unfortunately I wasn't in the percent that saved their marriage, but I became one wise cookie outta it and I think I am gonna do fine. Think I will, when time is right, meet somebody, settle down again, and do fine. CJ, and friends, don't doom and gloom yourself over this. Take it as a learning experience. You've learned alot CJ and you've grown so much since we both began posting here. You're a heckuva woman.

If we respect ourselves, learn about MB principles, stay TOUGH AND DON'T GIVE IN, have SUFFICIENT BOUNDARIES, and LEARN FROM OUR MISTAKES, learn to RECOGNIZE CYCLES AND CERTAIN PREDICTABLE BEHAVIORS IN WS'S, then I'd say all of us are on a very very positive road ahead.

Some here will recover their marriages, and some here will need to learn when to move on. What I hope is some of us oldtimers can pass enough wisdom from our own lives, what we did incorrectly, what we SHOULD have done, etc., to help our friends here have the best chances of recovering their families and marriages.

Remember, when Ann Lander's husband left her for his nurse that he met while recuperating from minor surgery?

And Ann Landers is probably one of the most FAMOUS advice givers; she has heard it all.

As Harley says about unfaithful spouses: if you think it can't happen in your marriage, then you are mistaken...it can!
(That was paraphrased but his exact words are on the home page somewhere.)

FLOWERGIRL

***********************************************

Thanks for posting this CJ.

Please forgive me if I have this information wrong, but what I read is this is not Cerri's H's first affair.

I wondered all day yesterday about this terrible news. And most my thoughts were that it seems to me when a person has an affair, the next time is so much easier and unfortuntely somewhat likely.

I've been on this site for nearly 5 years now, and I have seen countless times, more than not, a WS ends up in a second or third affair down the road.

I know no one is going to want to read this (non-MB). And maybe it's just because I have been through serial cheating with my ex-H so my view could be distorted, but as an engineer I continue to see a repeat offender trend which is supported by several years of MB data.

This, coupled with Willard Harley stating he would divorce his wife if she cheated, really makes me question any true recovery from an affair and the frightening fact there's a very high likelihood of repeat occurences. Quite disturbing.

I welcome and encourage anyone's thoughts on this.

Jo

<small>[ January 31, 2005, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]</small>

Anyone???

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Resilient:
Please forgive me if I have this information wrong, but what I read is this is not Cerri's H's first affair.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I believe you are correct Jo. I think there is more to the story... wait and see.

Pep

Affairs can happen to anybody. No one is safe from it!!!!!!!
I never thought it would happen to me and look where I am. You can only take care of yourself and know that no matter where your life takes you...you will be ok. I can stand on my own and know that I DON'T need a man or anybody else to live!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We WILL ALL survive!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by TreeReich*:
Affairs can happen to anybody. No one is safe from it!!!!!!!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My concern isn't so much that it can happen to anyone.

My concern is why risk having it happen again by continuing with a person who has cheated on you. Like I wrote above, even Willard Harley would not give his wife a second chance and has said he would divorce her pronto if she cheated. What does he know that we don't???

Jo

<small>[ January 31, 2005, 04:15 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Resilient:
What does he know that we don't???
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> what do some of us know that he doesn't?

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ January 31, 2005, 04:17 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Resiliant...I understand what you are saying. I personally could never take my WH back now. I've found out that there have been several affairs. I could never trust him again and don't even like him anymore.
I do believe that if the WS honestly wants to stop and save their marriage that it can be done. It's never going to happen for me so I choose to move on.
My heart goes out to Cerri. This **** isn't fair for any of us!!!!!

<small>[ January 31, 2005, 06:38 PM: Message edited by: Justuss ]</small>

Resiliant...I understand what you are saying. I personally could never take my WH back now. I've found out that there have been several affairs. I could never trust him again and don't even like him anymore.
I do believe that if the WS honestly wants to stop and save their marriage that it can be done. It's never going to happen for me so I choose to move on.
My heart goes out to Cerri. This cr@p isn't fair for any of us!!!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Resilient:

My concern is why risk having it happen again by continuing with a person who has cheated on you. Like I wrote above, even Willard Harley would not give his wife a second chance and has said he would divorce her pronto if she cheated. What does he know that we don't???

Jo [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I shudder at the thought of what I would be missing if my H. and I had not given each other a second chance.

We had 2 A's each and have now been in recovery going on 5 years. We have a wonderful relationship. You could ask anyone that knows us or had been around us. We are not the same people we once were.

I do wonder about CJ's motivation behind this post. What purpose does it serve?

Susan

YES, this a very tough blow.....My heart truely goes out to Cerri...And it DOES indeed, cause me to look at my own situation and realize there are no guarantees where recovery is concerned. NONE! It's something I've worked very hard to come to come to terms with.

By all accounts, my h and I are a "success story" in recovery. We've both worked equally hard to make this a reality. But I do know that recovery is ongoing....As my h tells me often, "I work at this every day"..it is not a done deal when the storm passes.....though I sure wish it was!. If you've ever read "The Monogamy Myth," or work by Shirely Glass, you know that recovery has maintainance and that comes from both people in the M.

The reality that it can happen again, despite OUR best efforts is a hard thing to face. I have come to realize that my efforts are important in recovery.......very important! But they make up only PART of recovery. My h has to do his share for our m to remain strong. One can't carry the whole load. To this day, my h asserts that what he did had absolutely nothing to do with me and that I was not the cause. His family of origin, his workplace, society in general, male socialization, and his previous marriages all played a part in what he did.

As I look at what happened to Cerri, I can not blame her in any way, for something her h did. It does not wipe out all the contributions she has made in other peoples lives. It does not wipe out her knowledge or her professionalism. Nor can I blame her for her immediate reactions..........there were actions that came out of me right after d-day that I didn't know I was capable of. To say that infidelity is like a knife to the heart, is not strong enough.

YES, this a very tough blow.....My heart truely goes out to Cerri...And it DOES indeed, cause me to look at my own situation and realize there are no guarantees where recovery is concerned. NONE! It's something I've worked very hard to come to come to terms with.

By all accounts, my h and I are a "success story" in recovery. We've both worked equally hard to make this a reality. But I do know that recovery is ongoing....As my h tells me often, "I work at this every day"..it is not a done deal when the storm passes.....though I sure wish it was!. If you've ever read "The Monogamy Myth," or work by Shirely Glass, you know that recovery has maintainance and that comes from both people in the M.

The reality that it can happen again, despite OUR best efforts is a hard thing to face. I have come to realize that my efforts are important in recovery.......very important! But they make up only PART of recovery. My h has to do his share for our m to remain strong. One can't carry the whole load. To this day, my h asserts that what he did had absolutely nothing to do with me and that I was not the cause. His family of origin, his workplace, society in general, male socialization, and his previous marriages all played a part in what he did.

As I look at what happened to Cerri, I can not blame her in any way, for something her h did. It does not wipe out all the contributions she has made in other peoples lives. It does not wipe out her knowledge or her professionalism. Nor can I blame her for her immediate reactions..........there were actions that came out of me right after d-day that I didn't know I was capable of. To say that infidelity is like a knife to the heart, is not strong enough.

Jo,

I can only speak for myself and no one else about why I took back my husband after two affairs. The first affair...was very early in our marriage. When I found out, his job training had kept us apart for 3 months and I had just found out I was pregnant as well as had a 12 month old. He had sex with a prostitute who ended up stalking him and then calling me. I knew nothing of MB then and honestly had no where to go and two babies. Back in those days, I still loved him pretty desperately and we managed to hang on and get some counseling. In a few years, we were really happy again. And that happiness lasted for almost ten years. I don't think it's a coincidence that the conditions that created that first affair were very similar to the second one. Again, we were forced to live apart because of job concerns....this time for a whole year. I was pregnant again and the affair was like deja vu....ONS with a prostitute. Several things happened that encouraged me not to give up:

*I found MB
*I knew we had already recovered from this once and been happy again...having done it once, actually gave me a data point believe it or not.
*I had a much better idea about how to better protect my marriage from vulnerability.
*I put safeguards and extraordinary precautions in place before considering reconciliation.
*My husband showed true remorse (and did some serious groveling...I know...my bad) as well as agreed to a very long list of provisions that were written in legal form and notarized....including a plan to find another job that was supportive of our marriage.
*I found the strength and resolve to take back my own power and stopped being a giver/doormat.


It wasn't easy, but the growth in my marriage (and us as individuals) and the changes that have occurred are pretty phenomenal. Most people I know envy the relationship I have with my husband and the co-operation and love we show for each other. I'm not suggesting this path for everyone....only giving my own testimony.

double

<small>[ January 31, 2005, 04:40 PM: Message edited by: d_rose ]</small>

I was suprised to hear what had happened. It was a shock mostly because I perceived Cerri as having a good marriage because of what she did here and on SYMC.

Granted I didn't really know her sitch and can't recall her posting (recently) specifics about her marriage. But with Cerri being a "public" figure of sorts, I bet this is even more dificult on her because of our perceptions of her.

Cerri, if you read this, my prayers (Wiccan or not) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> go out to you again. I'm sure at some point you encouraged me on here so I will do the same to you.

I wish you courage and strength....

Doug