</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I just think that now is not the time.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mimi, I don't mean to be rude, but I honestly don't understand why now is not the time? Because of Cerri? Most newbies won't have a clue who she is. Why not now? Is there some other reason I've missed (it's entirely possible)?

I think this is actually an important topic. This is an MB site, set up to foster MB principles, that's true. But the point is that MB principles simply do not apply to every case of infidelity. I'm really glad that you got to counsel with Steve, and that the Harley methods have worked for you - but all this means is that your sitch was well suited to the MB way. That is truly wonderful.

As I see it...

1) Following MB principles will generate a marriage that's comfortable for both spouses to be in.

2) However, having a comfortable marriage does not guarantee that a spouse will be faithful.

3) If the marriage is comfortable, yet a spouse is unfaithful, the conclusion must be that that spouse has needs that cannot be accommodated by a marriage.

And, in fact, Willard Harley has acknowledged just this. As I understand it, he has stated that, where there is chemical addiction or other deep-seated emotional problem, MB principles cannot be used.

It's therefore important to keep an open mind on the situation of others, and not simply rush to recommend MB principles wholesale in every case.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

TogetherAlone

<small>[ January 31, 2005, 06:12 PM: Message edited by: TogetherAlone ]</small>

I would say that mine was the first type, but it *could've* happened the 2nd way as well...so maybe a combination?

TOGETHER:

Your post sounds hostile towards me. I'm sorry that if I have offended you or anyone else. I was expressing my viewpoint.

I am open to other viewpoints. I was stating that I don't understand why someone would come to the MB site to question its principles rather than to try to apply them to their situation.

I just don't understand it. I don't have to understand everything.

I just hope we are careful not to discourage others who are coming here to learn about the system. Folks coming here are confused already. They don't need further confusion or conflict.

I certainly do not want to raise hostility in others.

I don't know why I won't go away from this thread like I said I would. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

***mulan..
no one here could comprehend what needs you aren't meeting to make him that way....
and there isn't a direct correlation..
the question is why would they are work people be an acceptable answer to you...
They were Work People."
is that answer acceptable to you...***

Of course it's not acceptable -- and it makes him very, very angry that it's not.

***what does they were work people mean..
what does that mean to him..***

It means that if someone is a co-worker, that gives you license to go anywhere with them -- including off the premises -- whenever you want. If they are "work people," then whatever you do with them is "work," so it's perfectly okay. And since you don't have to tell your wife about every detail about boring old "work," you don't have to tell her anything about this, either, because it's all "work," see?

This is how he justifies leaving the premises and driving off with attractive women for lengthy private lunches, and buying them gifts and lunches to celebrate their birthdays. This is how he justifies it to this very day. It is embedded in his head like concrete and NOTHING will change his mind on this.

***that work people are entitled to more politeness, respect, and decency than you...***

Apparently they are. They got his time, affection and emotional support (all VERY public.) I get ignored whenver they are anywhere around.

***his reason for this affair that he claims is becasue they were work people??***

Well, you have to understand that he didn't have an affair. He's not that kind of man. It makes him very angry if I use words like "affair" or "cheating" or "girlfriends," because going out with co-workers is perfectly okay. If you're with a co-worker, no matter where you are or what's going on, then you're WORKING. He's explained this to me very carefully and very ANGRILY many, many times -- the most recent being yesterday.

***mulan..
what are the reasons your husband sites for having his affair..
what are his words..
which by no mean hold your responsible for his actions or choices...***

The affair(s) he didn't have? The *most* he will admit to is "I may have let a few people get a little too close to me." Most sane people would describe his version of "a little too close to me" as being "dating other women," but he did NOT date anyone and he will get VERY angry if someone seems to think he did.

His justification for going out with these women for lunches and other celebrations, and for acting in public as their personal escorts and dinner companions at the company awards banquets, is, of course, "We're working. They are Work People, so whatever we do together is Work. Buying Slutface a special gift for her birthday, taking her out to celebrate it together, lying to my wife about her being with me on a four-day business trip, and answering "you know it" to Slutface's email that said "thanks for the love" is all WORK. It's all NORMAL WORK. I never saw her bend over in front of me. It's all WORK so YOU CAN'T SAY ANYTHING ABOUT IT AND IF THAT HURTS YOU, THEN YOUR FEELINGS ARE WRONG AND YOUR FEELINGS ARE BULLSH*T."

Those are his words.

***what does this man say to you in words and in actions that putting you before all others means...***

To him, it means he will put me before all others *at home.* At work, Work People come first because Work has to come first and if it doesn't we will be stone broke and living in a van down by the river so I'd better stop talking about how he does his WORK.

***and what answer is tolerable and acceptable in your world...***

The answer I hoped to hear was the same one I gave him: "Nobody and nothing is more important that our marriage. Nothing comes before that -- certainly not a selfish company with a terrible attitude towards spouses." But that answer never came. Not even close.

his i don't know..is not an answer..and if you accept I don't know that is your choice...

***Of course it's not. It means, "I hate it that I got caught, so shut up."***

mulan...focus your control and power back on to you...
do not accept unacceptable..
ark

***I don't anymore. Really. I have more and more my own life and my own intersts, and have pretty much given up on trying to be part of his world. He likes being part of mine whenever I have something fun and interesting going on -- I am a novelist and he likes things like my booksignings where he can enjoy some of my attention and success for himself. He will actually walk around with a nametag that says "Mr. (my pen name.)

But by the gods, I had better not THINK of enjoying HIS rewards. They are ALL FOR HIM and his WORK PEOPLE. He does NOT share his rewards with me. He ONLY shares them with WORK PEOPLE.

(Wanna hear the really funny part? I worked at the same place for more than eight years. That made me "work people," too -- but when I point this out, he becomes fuming angry and clams up.)

The truth is, he found a way to have a double life for himself and enjoyed it so much that he will do just about anything to go back to the good old days. It never bothered him to lie. It never bothered him to be without me. He honestly thinks he is entitled to live this way and is extremely angry that I stopped playing along. He thinks to this day his only problem is how to somehow convince me to go along with it again.

His recent words and actions have made it clear that he is no more interested in sharing the perks of his job with me than he ever was. He likes to share mine, but I am NOT to share his.

I'm not "Work People."

Thank you for responding to me.
Mulan

For what it's worth, I remember reading that not all MB principles will apply in a case of a sex addict. In my case, some of MB applies and some doesn't.

Meeting a sex addict's EN's is not entirely possible -- I don't think I need to explain what I mean by that, but I will if necessary -- and even the best attempts to do so will not change the behaviors.

Recognizing when you're dealing with an addict is tantamount, because just that knowledge can save you lots of time and effort and set you more definitely on the correct path.

Mulan, do you think it's possible that your H is a sex addict? Just wondering, not meaning to offend.

Blessings,
PM

***Mulan, do you think it's possible that your H is a sex addict? Just wondering, not meaning to offend.***

Hi papermom, no offense at all! I've sure asked myself this question. Even with the women and the strippers and the porn, I'm not sure it's exactly sex addiction. He DID form very strong attachments to his favorites at work -- when he says "I never loved them," it's a baldfaced lie -- and still has a very strong emotional connection that I don't think he will ever give up.

He has never, EVER said anything like, "I'm sorry I spent time with them instead of with you. I'm sorry I did those things." He will only say, "I'm sorry I hurt you." And that's all.

I think it's more like a "female-attention addiction." Any kind will do -- personal, emotional, flirtatious, rescue-me, sexual -- it's all good and there's never enough of it. Even female attention you have to *pay* for, like with the strippers and even waitresses, is all good so long as you get it.

This is why he can't have me hanging around at work parties. If the old ball-and-chain is there, it's harder to get that good steady flow of attention from the women there who just *love* my H and think he's the greatest guy in the world too bad his wife is such a b*tch she must be look he never wants anything to do with her.

That's why he can't share his work life with me. And that's why I do not know what I can do, or could have done, to fill this bottomless EN of his for attractive and flirtatious (and fresh, new) women to feed his ego.
Mulan

Mulan, thanks. You know what? It *does* sound like an SA of sorts, to me. I've done quite a bit of research on the topic recently (wish I didn't have to!). Fortunately, my H is making efforts to deal with his problems; unfortunately, that doesn't mean our M will survive. It doesn't sound as if your H is willing to work on his at all. My heart goes out to you.

May I ask you another question, a very personal one?
PM

Mulan:

Just wanted to add that this is a great thread. The questions you are asking are certainly thought provoking and I myself have had the same questions.

Cheers <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

LM

Lemonman and papermom, thanks very much. PM, ask away. I'm also a writer so if I don't know the answer I'll just make something up. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> (Not really -- I only do that if I'm getting paid for it!)
Mulan

Ah, Mulan! What kind of writing? I'm always interested in writers and writing!

Here's the other question: was your husband abused sexually as a child?
PM

IMO A WS can stray en be vulnerable to an affair because of:

1) Unmet EN’s and/or problems in a M
2) Pure selfishness and/or a character flaws and/or lack of morals.
3) For reasons/circumstances other than problems/issues within the M e.g. personal problems/issues and baggage a person bring into the marriage and/or personal weaknesses & vulnerabilities and/or failure of WS to protect themselves against their own weaknesses/vulnerabilities.
4) Combination of the above.

In my case I’ve got involved in an inappropriate friendship/EA mostly because of nr. 3 (on the above list). Yes, there was some unmet EN’s in my M (no marriage is 100% perfect), but it only played a minor role. Most of my personal problems/issues/baggage/weaknesses resulted from unresolved childhood issues at the time. Therefore I’m not able to ‘classify’ myself in any of the 2 types of A’s that was provided by the sender of this thread.

Suzet

***Ah, Mulan! What kind of writing? I'm always interested in writers and writing!***

Historical Romance. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Can't tell ya how much fun it is to write happy-ever-after love stories when your H is ignoring you for work parties and "work people" and fighting fiercely for his right to do that.

***Here's the other question: was your husband abused sexually as a child?
PM***

Not at all, as far as I know. He talks at great length about his family and I knew them pretty well -- both his parents died about 10 years ago -- and though it was chaotic, poor and filled with neglect, there has never been any hint about sexual abuse. Thanks for asking.
Mulan