Yeah, you get it. You mean I rambled all that in an email, and you get it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> UGH!!!!

I knew you would. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Love you, Jelly

Jelly,

UGH is right! Dang, I am dense. I am totally in "that place" you are in, and have been for quite some time....just misunderstood what you were saying here....not YOUR fault, though....I thought I was missing something, but I'm not. RH gave me his thoughts on the one e-mail and something he said made it click. Here I was, all upset that I maybe wasn't in "that place"....I was. I am. Thank God! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

NOW

NOW* <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Jelly, while there may be some element of self pity in Mrs. E's case I believe there is just as much what I would term self protection. None of us as humans like to feel pain. In my W's case she, with the help of OM self medicated herself to the point she was living in a world where there were no feelings and no consequences.

Once the reality of her actions and there consequences set in and she made the clear minded decision to rectify them, taking ownership in a word, the pain became almost unbearable.

Most are not really familiar with my story. Let it suffice to say that my W's was no "normal" A and the havoc she reeked was not your average run of the mill stuff.

I am not arguing your point, in fact I believe you are dead on. However, as a BS it was really an epipany to realize that I could find true forgiveness for my W but she has been unable to find it for herself. And this can be just as detrimental to R as anything outside of the A itself.

You see, as BS's many of us want to even the scales so to speak. We want our WS to feel as bad as they made us feel. I've seen many a BS on here say that they have forgiven there WS only to follow that up with a, but they need to pay reference wrapped in nice words. There again, lashing back regardless of the degree is human nature.

I just wanted the BS's that jump on here and read your posts to hear a little different take before they try to ram the ownership deal down their WS's throats.

Always remember IT'S A GREAT DAY TO BE ALIVE!!!!

Cowboy said,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> In my W's case she, with the help of OM self medicated herself to the point she was living in a world where there were no feelings and no consequences.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What I'm hearing is that she was influenced by drugs, so she can not be held fully accountable for her A, due to the drug influence????

If I'm hearing you correct, then... She could have walked away, she didn't have to take them, it was her choice to medicate. She chose that world, she made that decision. Don't allow OM to have any power over your situation.

It isn't pretty to realize the person you loved can do this to you, but she did it, now let her claim it. Don't stand in her way of accountability. If I'm wrong on thinking it was some kind of drug use I'm sorry. I'll correct it, if you like.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> However, as a BS it was really an epiphany to realize that I could find true forgiveness for my W but she has been unable to find it for herself. And this can be just as detrimental to R as anything outside of the A itself.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I believe one can not forgive themselves when they are still playing the victim, when you play the victim you feel you have been done wrong, you then have justification for your A. It isn't until you hold yourself fully accountable, that you can forgive yourself. If you are not accountable, how can you forgive? You only have guilt feelings because of the obvious damage and hurt you have inflicted on your loved one. You are just lost in the fact that you have sinned against God, and against your S, it seems to be for no reason. If you look deep within, and hold yourself accountable, the reasons behind your failure become obvious. Then you can forgive and make improvements on yourself, so this doesn't become a pattern of life but it becomes a mistake in your life.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You see, as BS's many of us want to even the scales so to speak. We want our WS to feel as bad as they made us feel. I've seen many a BS on here say that they have forgiven there WS only to follow that up with a, but they need to pay reference wrapped in nice words. There again, lashing back regardless of the degree is human nature.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can guarantee you the WS feels bad, I think their are some reptiles out there that might not, but for the most of the WS, they feel extremely bad. However, this is apples and oranges to me. The BS pain due to betrayal and the WS pain due to guilt, you just can't compare it, it is not the same pain.

I believe the BS who doesn't feel proper remorse and change of behavior are the ones who feel this way. They are the ones who are unable to forgive. You take a WS who is truly remorseful, who has a plan of action to change their ways and improve upon themselves, one who is willing to be an open book to their BS, and show me a BS who still feels they want the WS to feel bad. I believe all the bitter BS out there are do to the fact that their WS are not trying to recover. I have more faith in the human spirit than to just think people can not forgive.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I just wanted the BS's that jump on here and read your posts to hear a little different take before they try to ram the ownership deal down their WS's throats.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think a BS can force a WS to be held accountable. However I do feel the BS can guide them in this direction by not placing blame on the OP. OP was only responsible for themselves. Your WS was responsible for their choice. I see where one would want to protect themselves and their spouse, I went through that, but I don't feel a full recover can happen until both spouses see it was solely the responsibility of the WS. I feel the BS hinders the WS recovery process by allowing themselves to blame the OP, your S, did this to you, the OP, played a very small part in it, the part of being used by your spouse.


Their is such a degree of guilt for the WS, it leads most into a depression type state, in order for them to break free of that they need to find out the Why's to their A. They need to hold themselves solely accountable, and make changes in their life.

I hope I understood your post, please keep in mind for the most part I am generalizing and not speaking specifically, of your Cowgirl.

Jelly

Kyellow4 said

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It isn't until you hold yourself fully accountable, that you can forgive yourself. If you are not accountable, how can you forgive? You only have guilt feelings because of the obvious damage and hurt you have inflicted on your loved one. You are just lost in the fact that you have sinned against God, and against your S, it seems to be for no reason. If you look deep within, and hold yourself accountable, the reasons behind your failure become obvious. Then you can forgive and make improvements on yourself, so this doesn't become a pattern of life but it becomes a mistake in your life. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You said a moutful of truth right there! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You take a WS who is truly remorseful, who has a plan of action to change their ways and improve upon themselves, one who is willing to be an open book to their BS, and show me a BS who still feels they want the WS to feel bad. I believe all the bitter BS out there are do to the fact that their WS are not trying to recover. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again.....so true!

HOWEVER....some BS refuse to be accountable for their own choices in the marriage, choices that pushed their spouse further away. All they see is the A. That is most definitely NOT to be taken as putting blame on the BS for the A in any way. All I'm saying here is that a simple acknowledgement on the part of a BS that they understand they are ALSO flawed (we ALL are) and know there are things they can also do to improve the marriage, and not deny that it could have been them that had the A, would go a long way towards helping a FWS feel that it is ok to admit their faults and weaknesses. A lot of times, what you hear from a BS is "I could never have done such a horrible thing!" Well, the FWS is standing there thinking, "I never thought I would either...I must be a worse person than my BS" and that is SO not true, yet we buy it. So the FWS continues to put up the wall of self-protection because it does not seem that the BS has made themselves vulnerable by admitting they have flaws, too. It's a vicious circle.
I just know that when RH admitted things to me about himself, when I saw that he did NOT think he was better than me just because he didn't have an A, that is when I could take full responsibility for my choice. THAT is when I quit blaming him.

Hope this has made sense...it sort of seemed to me this was what Mr. E was getting at....but correct me if I'm wrong. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />


NOW

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">HOWEVER....some BS refuse to be accountable for their own choices in the marriage, choices that pushed their spouse further away. All they see is the A. That is most definitely NOT to be taken as putting blame on the BS for the A in any way. All I'm saying here is that a simple acknowledgement on the part of a BS that they understand they are ALSO flawed (we ALL are) and know there are things they can also do to improve the marriage </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I strongly believe in Plan A, and this is all apart of it.

My post was not about what the BS is doing or is not doing, it was about what I feel is essential for the WS to do in order to recover.

I will agree that I needed my H to hold himself accountable for his past behavior, I needed to forgive him for the state of our M and before I could do that, he needed to apologize, and feel remorse.

However I feel it is almost a separate issue. It was my growth as a person, my coming into self worth, that I needed him to be held accountable.

I needed to rise above myself, and hold myself accountable, regardless of my H's behavior. It was about building my character, and having self respect. For the first time in my life, I stood alone, I was not leaning or hiding, on anybody, I held myself accountable, it was my decision, and my wrong to make right.


Jelly

Beautifully said, NOW* Hope this has made sense...it sort of seemed to me this was what Mr. E was getting at....but correct me if I'm wrong.

Jelly,

Yes, you are right....regardless of whether or not the BS admits to faults, the WS has to do this.
Absolutely!!

What I see sometimes is stubbornness on the part of both partners....nobody wants to "go first", if you know what I mean! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Suppose the FWS does that soul-searching and admits fully rsponsibility, but the BS does not respond....why do they not respond? That is so sad to me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I am very fortunate that RH "got it" so quickly.

Love ya!

NOW

In other words, some BS are now playing the victim of their WS affair. What to do?

<small>[ March 01, 2005, 11:24 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Me too, feels good.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
KY

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">From NOW:
Suppose the FWS does that soul-searching and admits fully rsponsibility, but the BS does not respond....why do they not respond?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">One of the obstacles is:
Just as almost all persons in prison "claim" innocence.....almost all WS at some point in the process claim they Get It.

But as evidenced (even here) thousands of times over.....many are still being just as deceptive and actually Don't "get it" and are only "saying" what they believe will help them in the short (possibly long) term.

The major challenge for the BS is to figure out if our OWN WS is one of the former or one of the latter.
VERY tough.....as they almost ALL "sound" alike.

In addition, (to make it even more difficult) there is the matter of the WS that cried "wolf".

Yes, they "say" things,
they make promises.....tell of their epiphanies and all their soul searching.....and it turns out to be lies.

(Now here comes the Really Sad Part):

EVENTUALLY.....they do "Get It"....they see the light (and such).....

aahhhhhhhh.......but the damage is Done......they have already Destroyed their Own CREDIBILITY ......hence No One Believes them (that they do see their mistakes and that they are taking ownership in them).

Most BS (or at least the ones here) are a very 2nd/3rd (more) chance kind of folks.
But heck, even the best have our their own Breaking point.

Too many times that attitude is seen and exploited as a "weakness", rather then as the gift it truly IS. Sad but true.

However, if they (WS) truly are a better person (in the end).......well, individual improvement is "something" (& a Huge something).........even if the marriage is over (or at least never what it could/should have been).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I needed to rise above myself, and hold myself accountable, regardless of my H's behavior. It was about building my character, and having self respect.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think this is the way out of the issue. I can see where NOW and FF are coming from, because I also felt that way before - that I did truly 'get it', that I accepted full responsibility, that I acted on that and made changes to myself.
But, there was a part of me that was still fixated on H, as in, can't he see how far I've come and how much I've changed?? Why still so angry and blaming me for everything?

Now, I think the only way out is to make the changes and accept the responsibility because it is the right thing to do. Definitely not to get any particular response from your S. There are some people who may never be able to forgive. I hope my H is not one of those, but he may be. I want to become a better person for me, and thats all I can control.

<small>[ February 03, 2005, 04:23 PM: Message edited by: smur ]</small>

I said "yes, but..." which is the same as "however."

There ARE no yes buts and howevers. The choice to have an A is the choice of the WS alone.

There are NO justifications.

Jen

<small>[ March 01, 2005, 11:27 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Now, I think the only way out is to make the changes and accept the responsibility because it is the right thing to do. Definitely not to get any particular response from your S. There are some people who may never be able to forgive. I hope my H is not one of those, but he may be. I want to become a better person for me, and thats all I can control. Now you get "it", Smur. Took me a long time and I admit I still have the rare moments of saying to my H, but can't you see the changes in me? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

So, question:

Is my husband's opinion of me any of my business?


NOW

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by notonlywords*:
<strong> So, question:

Is my husband's opinion of me any of my business?


NOW </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What a wonderful question.

KiwiJ said
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I said "yes, but..." which is the same as "however."

There ARE no yes buts and howevers. The choice to have an A is the choice of the WS alone.

There are NO justifications.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I totally agree. Just want to clarify that what I am talking about is recovery. Recovery can't be all one- sided. The state the marriage is/was/will be in is the responsibility of both partners, regardless of whether or not there was an A.

NOW