anyname, I'd welcome any insights you might have. The only thing I've asked of anybody on MB is please phrase it as opinion. No one knows the journey we've been on except each of us individually. Each one of these As are eerily similar, and yet very different at the same time. We each (WS and BS)bring different total life experiences into our Ms and also what we were going through when the stupid A occurred. I think some things we all need to do are just no brainers, such as NC. When it comes to overcoming the A and getting through recovery I think it's another story.

Concerning the sex drive theory, could be true. I have always liked sex and each decade my desire has increased. I actually read once that a woman's sex drive in her 20s is not necessarily that high. I also will say that when my H cut me off physically for 9 months I really had a hard time with it. It was actually painful to not have sex. It felt like being deprived of food. So maybe when he returned to the M it was the honeymoon phase, but also just having sex again was good.

Another observation about the WWs, which again might be inaccurate. I have seen many WHs act like total jerks, but usually the ones still in the As. However the WWs that become FWWs seem to take a long time getting to the remorseful stage. Sometimes they have seemed outright mean to me. I don't want to offend any FWWs here. Maybe my observations are totally screwed up. CV

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CV55:
<strong> However the WWs that become FWWs seem to take a long time getting to the remorseful stage. CV </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think this is true too and I have a theory...women are `thinkers` when it comes to emotions. When a women is unhappy she has thought it out..she knows exactly when she first became unhappy and WHY. In other words she has DWELT on in and allowed herself to feel the full range of emotions.

Men do not do that. I think they kind of know when they are unhappy but they do not want to think about it...analyse it ect. Their unhappiness is on the backburner. They do not live with it the way that women do.

When women cheat it is more of a conscious decision IMHO...whereas with men they kind of stumble into it.

So when recovery begins the WW has a LONG list of reasons `why` and has a long history of feeling unhappy. The WH does not. The WW knows why she had the A but the WH does not...not at first anyway.

Interesting Daisy! It makes sense to me, especially about the part of men stumbling into an A. I think I read somewhere that when a W decides to get an A she is more likely to go through with it. CV

I agree with what Daisy has said as men are not thinkers when getting into an A.

What has helped me get over what H has done sexually with others is finally understanding my H's way of thinking and I guess you can say his reasons for outside sex. I guess there are many reasons as to the "why" they did it. I know my H was all about sex. It was the illicit sex, the excitement of doing something he should not be doing. The excitement built up with thinking of wrong sex till he finally started acting out. It was exciting, wrong and probably felt good to him at the time with getting away with something he should not be doing. Heck, he got away with it till he stopped from ever doing it again and I found out 27 years or so later. That is a long time getting away with it.

H had no EA's at all. It was all sex to him only. A few tries to get a couple of girls for sex but failed. 2 girls he managed to get them to do for him about 3 times each.

I look as the sex he had with them was NOT love or anything close to it. When he was having sex with them, it was .......just sex. No emotions at the time but enjoying what they were doing for him. When H has sex with me it is much more....even if we are lost in only the sexual moment but he is doing it because he loves me besides getting satisfaction.

I think even the H that had a PA with EA, that the moment of the sexual act their is not really any love but just sex or/and wanting to look like stud. So, I know for H it was sex...heck you can have sex with a ***** and still enjoy it if that is what you wanted. My H does not connect sex and love. To him sex with me is an expression of love but it doesn't mean he loves me. H shows me in other ways that he loves me.

Even though I look back at all I just wrote...it still hurts at times that H allowed himself to do what he did. He was weak, sick and had no boundaries. I think his idea was he wanted it, thought he never would get caught and it felt good. H has grown up a lot since many many years ago. Now I have to loose my fear and learn to trust that H will not lie to me anymore. That his lying days are done. Hard to do.

Maxlo

CV, An opinion? hell no! I'm right about everything. <grin> I know we all like to think we are insightful but in second guessing the nuances of infidelity - the only thing we can do is look at trends and the majority reaction. I really liked what Daisy said, but I don't think it fully explains the situation with WWs. I think it also has to do with women being less sexual than men. Because of the nature of A sex - it being forbidden and stolen, it is hot and I think it awakens a high level of sexuality in a woman, after the grind of having babies and mortgages and putting out the trash etc has taken its toll on her sexual responsiveness in the context of M. I don't think a woman always has an A because she's unhappy. I think it's pretty much bad luck that she meets someone who she is attracted to. And if that someone is willing and available, she becomes more and more addicted to the situation. She no longer feels that intense level of sexual awareness with her H, but is forced to give up the hot sex with the OM after d-day, if she wants the security of her primary relationship - plus deep down she probably knows the OM is a rat and not a suitable long term partner, and she is caught between a rock and a hard place. Great sex with a rat or long term security with her somewhat dull (to her) but sweet, long suffering BH. Her exciting private life is now a matter of public scrutiny and she realises she's paying a high price for a bit of hot sex. But hot sex is addictive and I'm sure she feels cheated out of it by her *unfair* circumstances. So she returns to the marriage and broods for a very long time. The BH gets sexual crumbs from his WWs table. As little as she can get away with providing, until such time as she feels less cheated over giving up the europhia she experienced with the OM. And to make matters worse, some of the self appointed oracles on MBs tell BHs the wife doesn't want sex with them because they are not fulfilling their WWs emtional needs. I have often wondered whether a BH would do better if he told his WW the marriage is over on d-day. Facing this kind of reality might be what a WW needs to turn her sexual awareness back to her BH. We all want what we can't have.

Anyway I'm prolly rambling. I just want to explain that I've been in OZ for two months and am in the process of packing up to return to HK tomorrow. (I've been a lot better away from the scene of the crime) I have some opinions about your situation, but in all honesty I've been chewing it over and wondering whether they fit the model. I'm not sure that they do. As you say, each case has its own complexities - but given my explanation above, you can see how easily I cast an umbrella over WWs - and of course every individual case is different and has it's own perculiar back drop to be taken into account. I would like to keep discussing this in a general context rather than applying any of it to your situation. You are plenty smart enough to take what you need from a discussion.

We have changed the subject a little from Noodles original posting.
AN

anyname, regarding the comment about most BH threatening to divorce on dday, isn't that a controlling approach? especially if a D is not what you want. I know that SF was not on my mind at all (except for her A) so to threaten something I didn't want for SF IMO is wrong.

I believe that you and CV hit it right on that WW have a different mentality then WH's, as do BH and BW's, pertaining to sex.

W and I had a nice night away last weekend, but even as great as it was, the sex was still tainted of thoughts of "them". Not as bad as other times but enough to cause a little anxiety. If not for the meds, it probably would have been a different night.

Not sure if you caught my story in the preceeding thread,(kindof ran together with your comments) I am still learning how to (chat) in here.(never been in a chat room before this) but, would like your point of view.

I would also like the POV from WW/FWW's on how they respond to BS, the first week, month and so on after dday. My W did not have a prolonged PA, so I am in a different sitch than most on this site.

kindof getting back to Noodles original thread,I still have thoughts of them and how she "performed" for him. I have heard 2 different things on here. 1- that First time A sex is awkward and not so good, but gets better with more contact. and also that A sex is the greatest sex they have had. This last one is on my mind, again any WW/FWW comments on this would be great.

I have read this thread and am surprised at the women have some of the same thoughts as men regarding sex, I just believe that the women are able to fight back better with "doing better than OW" I don't think it is as easy for a man, I might be wrong, again feedback is appreciated.

Noodle, what are your thoughts on all this. I tried your idea and I just can't think like that (yet). I think it is great that you can. Porn generaly can work for me, but porn with my wife and OM doesn't cut it. I tried to put my face in it but again does not work. and for me it is not about the orgasm, but what he did to get her there that haunts me. and What she did to him.
What are your thoughts people!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by hurtnheart:
<strong> anyname, regarding the comment about most BH threatening to divorce on dday, isn't that a controlling approach? especially if a D is not what you want. I know that SF was not on my mind at all (except for her A) so to threaten something I didn't want for SF IMO is wrong.

I believe that you and CV hit it right on that WW have a different mentality then WH's, as do BH and BW's, pertaining to sex.

W and I had a nice night away last weekend, but even as great as it was, the sex was still tainted of thoughts of "them". Not as bad as other times but enough to cause a little anxiety. If not for the meds, it probably would have been a different night.

Not sure if you caught my story in the preceeding thread,(kindof ran together with your comments) I am still learning how to (chat) in here.(never been in a chat room before this) but, would like your point of view.

I would also like the POV from WW/FWW's on how they respond to BS, the first week, month and so on after dday. My W did not have a prolonged PA, so I am in a different sitch than most on this site.

kindof getting back to Noodles original thread,I still have thoughts of them and how she "performed" for him. I have heard 2 different things on here. 1- that First time A sex is awkward and not so good, but gets better with more contact. and also that A sex is the greatest sex they have had. This last one is on my mind, again any WW/FWW comments on this would be great.

I have read this thread and am surprised at the women have some of the same thoughts as men regarding sex, I just believe that the women are able to fight back better with "doing better than OW" I don't think it is as easy for a man, I might be wrong, again feedback is appreciated.

Noodle, what are your thoughts on all this. I tried your idea and I just can't think like that (yet). I think it is great that you can. Porn generaly can work for me, but porn with my wife and OM doesn't cut it. I tried to put my face in it but again does not work. and for me it is not about the orgasm, but what he did to get her there that haunts me. and What she did to him.
What are your thoughts people! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">HNH,
I don't have time to comment at length about ANs ideas [although I wish I did..I'll get there] but I can tell you..that at the point you are at now..I would not touch H..wouldn't hold his hand..wouldn't brush him in passing..hard to even look at him. When we did first try having sex, I generally ended up in the bathroom dry heaving. Shaking, and full of rage. Good times.

I'm VERY territorial, very protective of my body, and as dominant as they come..so the idea of him with another woman really and truly WAS enough for me to wish either he or I had just died instead.

I needed a solution..no matter how shallow..so that I could capture even one iota of the enjoyment that I once did during sex. And so that I wouldn't have to go get myself neutered to stop peeing on the rug and growling at the neighbors. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

After two YEARS I gave this a shot. It worked to push through that imagery and claim it..and then I FINALLY had an affair imagery free sexual encounter..last week.

As for my opinion on A sex..I'd say it is probably BOTH very ackward..and VERY exciting due to the highly charged situation. I don't think they are mutually exclusive. Don't you remember your first time?

Noodle

Because of the nature of A sex - it being forbidden and stolen, it is hot and I think it awakens a high level of sexuality in a woman, after the grind of having babies and mortgages and putting out the trash etc has taken its toll on her sexual responsiveness in the context of M. I don't think a woman always has an A because she's unhappy. I think it's pretty much bad luck that she meets someone who she is attracted to. And if that someone is willing and available, she becomes more and more addicted to the situation.

I fully agree and this is exactly why my wife had an affair---- the daily mundane stresses of marriage and kids. Couple that with a poor childhood with many visions of infidelity and voilá you have an affair.


She no longer feels that intense level of sexual awareness with her H, but is forced to give up the hot sex with the OM after d-day, if she wants the security of her primary relationship - plus deep down she probably knows the OM is a rat and not a suitable long term partner, and she is caught between a rock and a hard place. Great sex with a rat or long term security with her somewhat dull (to her) but sweet, long suffering BH.

This is exactly my case. My wife lived in a fantasy world with OM and whether he was a rat or not was not important. IN addition she never planned to live the marriage. During the affair she was as high as a kite with a ton of energy. Now she finds herself with low energy levels and boredom. How can anyone disregard that?

But hot sex is addictive and I'm sure she feels cheated out of it by her *unfair* circumstances. So she returns to the marriage and broods for a very long time. The BH gets sexual crumbs from his WWs table. As little as she can get away with providing, until such time as she feels less cheated over giving up the europhia she experienced with the OM.

My wife was hypersexual with me from D-day for up to a month. In that regard she was different.

I told my wife I was divorcing her as soon as I learned of her affair. I believe the realization I was leaving her caused her to be turned on towards me.

I am 100% sure she uses OM imagery to get horny even though the affair is over.

BTW, I also believe affair sex is always better once the WW gets over the 1st awkward encounters. It is better because OM is NEW and not necessarily a stud or good in bed.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Stan-ley:

I am 100% sure she uses OM imagery to get horny even though the affair is over.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Did she tell you this?

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Anyname:

I have often wondered whether a BH would do better if he told his WW the marriage is over on d-day. Facing this kind of reality might be what a WW needs to turn her sexual awareness back to her BH. We all want what we can't have.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This only works IF the right mix of circumstances are involved:

1. The WW did not want to leave her H for the OM
2. The BH emotional/sexual investment in his WW is so low that he has no fear of leaving and divorcing her.

Other than that, it usually is a fruitless tactic.

TMCM

This thread lives? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Noodle, FYI - I told my W about this thread and her knowing she is not the only one that uses this method has made her feel even a little more comfortable using it and it's working even better these days. She doesn't use it everytime we have sex, but when the images come she flips it around in an instant and "embraces the dark side".

<small>[ February 23, 2005, 11:38 AM: Message edited by: RacerX fka:SISF ]</small>

Could a thread about sex possibly die? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

LOL, true!!!

I posted before I wanted on the last one. Check my edit above.

Did she tell you this?
Pep

Yes, she did! Let me explain:

Before I knew of the affair we sometimes use a fantasy during SF. In this fantasy my wife was a sexual addict who was having SF with other men left and right and I was just another John. This made her very aroused and therefore it created a nice atmosphere for SF.

Then we had this fantasy after D-day and I realized that WW had somewhat fulfilled the fantasy since she was having SF left and right. I was able to tell this aroused her even more and she confirmed it by her actions. It was nearly impossible to hide.

The issue is whether this offends me or not:

1. Initially I did like Noodle and embraced the dark side of the force. I thought that if I could feel better about the nightmare of the affair if I could incorporate some aspects into fantasy and used them for my own gratification------ good SF!

However, this also has side effects and at this time I rather not use this fantasy, which eventually became a reality.

2. I am not highly concerned about this. OM is no competition and is not a threat to the marriage----------- OM is not Hollywood material.



quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyname:
I have often wondered whether a BH would do better if he told his WW the marriage is over on d-day. Facing this kind of reality might be what a WW needs to turn her sexual awareness back to her BH. We all want what we can't have.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
This only works IF the right mix of circumstances are involved:
1. The WW did not want to leave her H for the OM
2. The BH emotional/sexual investment in his WW is so low that he has no fear of leaving and divorcing her.
Other than that, it usually is a fruitless tactic.



On D-day I was 100% sure I was getting a divorce and I was very forceful in voicing my opinion. My wife wanted to give me SF five minutes after discovery. I don’t think she wanted a divorce and she never saw OM as a viable male companion due to a multitude of reasons including the one where deep inside she knew he was a rat.

In a sense TMCM is probably correct. This only works when the WW has no intention to leave (cake eating) and the OM is not a viable option at all.

Stanley, I read your post and wanted to share some of my experiences. A little embarrasing but so many posters are being transparent on this thread I thought I would jump in.

Before DDay my W would ask me to make up fantasy stories. They usually included me running into a good looking client during my work day and...well...you get the picture. She's never been a jealous person, we often visited strip clubs together and she found joy in sicking one or more of the ladies on me. Then she'd reap the benefits when we got home. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

This fantasy is slowly returning after dday, but these days I keep my mouth shut and I realize the difference between fantasy and reality.

I have a few thoughts to throw out here. What I read in Chapman's "The Five Love Languages" helped me to understand just why the sex bothered me more than the "ILYs" going on. I've shared this on here before so sorry if I'm repeating myself. He said for those of us who have Physical Touch as a top Love Language the sexual betrayal is like getting our love banks nuked. He didn't say those words, but the idea is the same. I am a W who likes sex. That desire didn't all of a sudden come out after d-day because I was trying to get my H back. Maybe the passion between us was extra, but I always liked sex with him a lot. So the idea that he had sex with her was a killer for me. I always knew the emotional crap she gave him was based on lies and manipulation. I just knew in time he'd be sick of it and her.

We had MC today and our therapist said something interesting. He said that people who get involved in triangles usually have developmental problems going back to childhood. So the OP who goes after a MM/MW is really looking for mommy or daddy. Our shrink said no matter how hot the sex might be, if the OP, in our case the OW, would have gotten H, there sex life probably would have sucked. The reason being that she would have been sleeping with daddy, which isn't too sexy. H discovered in IC that OW represented his grandmother who was the only source of comfort for him as a kid. Grandma and Daddy having sex would not have been a pretty picture.

H told me he likes sex with me because it's real, and he feels good about it. I hope that's the truth. As far as the BW has an easier time than the BHs, I don't know. I guess when a man can't have sex it's pretty obvious. On the other hand I've never faked an O in my life, but a woman can still do the act.

I have to laugh when I think about me a few years ago. Could I have imagined myself talking about this kind of stuff with men and women on the internet who I don't know? If this weren't a MB site it would be a little weird. It's still weird. I guess As tend to eliminate one's inhibitions. CV

Stanleys statement about me are all lies!! Never told him that!

He is the one with the fantasy, not me!

CV,
__________________________________________________
I have to laugh when I think about me a few years ago. Could I have imagined myself talking about this kind of stuff with men and women on the internet who I don't know? If this weren't a MB site it would be a little weird. It's still weird. I guess As tend to eliminate one's inhibitions. CV
__________________________________________________
I was thinking the same thing this morning when I was on. But I figure we are anonymous, and when I decided to register, I was not holding anything back, it would do no good to do that. So even my sex life is open(on this site only)even the not so proud stuff(meds to help with SF)(EMBARRASING)

I am still waiting for some WW/FWW's to respond to whether the first night of A sex was awkward or wild and fullfilling? or did it take a coule times to be wild. Was guilt involved at all? Did you feel able to do things you normally would not do with spouse? Is there a difference between a 1 night A sex and a prolonged A sexlife?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Stanleys statement about me are all lies!! Never told him that!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If that is the case, then I am ver happy. Things are really looking up! I can'T believe I read you so erroneously.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by hurtnheart:
<strong> CV,
__________________________________________________
I have to laugh when I think about me a few years ago. Could I have imagined myself talking about this kind of stuff with men and women on the internet who I don't know? If this weren't a MB site it would be a little weird. It's still weird. I guess As tend to eliminate one's inhibitions. CV
__________________________________________________
I was thinking the same thing this morning when I was on. But I figure we are anonymous, and when I decided to register, I was not holding anything back, it would do no good to do that. So even my sex life is open(on this site only)even the not so proud stuff(meds to help with SF)(EMBARRASING)

I am still waiting for some WW/FWW's to respond to whether the first night of A sex was awkward or wild and fullfilling? or did it take a coule times to be wild. Was guilt involved at all? Did you feel able to do things you normally would not do with spouse? Is there a difference between a 1 night A sex and a prolonged A sexlife? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can answer some of trhis on my Hs behalf. Let's see.. He said it was both ackward AND wild..umm, not fullfilling, but he would have liked it to have gone on longer [it felt good, but when she was done, it was over]..yes there was guilt involved..yes they did things he normally would do with me..can't answer that last one..someone else will have to jump in. You get the jist though..pretty much every one of your worst nightmares..is true at least on some level.

Noodle