Have fun tonight. Remember you're a fun guy! But don't be surprised if she is quiet or distant. If so, don't try to cheer her up. Just let her be where she is at.

legato,

you were right on again. On Friday night, she was distant and quiet. It didn't seem like she had any fun at all and I guess she didn't. She has been that way for several days/nights now. I am doing my best at plan A but it would sure be nice to see her peak through the fog again. That felt so good when she did.

How much detachment should there be in Plan A?
She said she enjoys getting breaks from me. (not that I am always with her, either) For example, two of the three nights this weekend she wanted a break (and got it). I just get so depressed when she goes out because I think the worst. She left tonight and said she had no idea where she was going... Maybe she doesn't ,but again, I think she is going to OM's. I have been watching her closely and have not found any clues that she is still seeing OM but there are ways she could contact him that I would never know.

Anyway, we will see how V-Day goes now. Thanks for posting.

options

Legato,

Things are not good. She is still very cold. Last night, when she got home, I very kindly asked her where she went and she could not account for the 2 1/2 hours she was gone. (I didn't ask for her to account for it either, just asked a simple question-I followed plan A). She immediately got very defensive when I asked too. I immediatly backed off. One simple question and I got the third degree...I have a very strong gut feeling she was with OM. Her impromptu outings don't make sense to me. She says she needs to clear her head. If she was with OM, what should I do? I can't prove it. Would I be best to let it go and hope it dies off? Or, hire a PI and try to get proof. What do you think of exposure? Is it still to early for that? Also, I couldn't expose on a gut feeling, I would need proof.

In the past she has told me that she has ended it with OM but I had to ask her directly. Other than that she has never given me any reassurance that she will never do it again. I know the A is an addition and I do not think she is over that yet and I don't see how she could get over it if she still sees him. It is going on 6 weeks now. I would think that after 6 weeks of NC w/ OM that it would be better than it is now. I guess that is partly why my gut is telling me she is still seeing OM.

I really feel like a doormat.

I look forward to your advice.

P.S. I bought her dozen roses, card, and wrote her another letter for V-Day today. I barely got a thank you out of her for them. She got me a shirt- nothing else. Not that I need anything else but I was hoping for a better response from her.

As long if she works in the same place she is still in contact. Also, I would tend to trust your gut in that she is probably seeing the OM when she goes out alone. Trying to break it off may have had the affect of drawing them closer and taking the A further and more covert.

If you can afford a PI then hire one. Get your proof. Then expose.

Does her work have a policy regarding any of this kind of behavior? Is the OM her superior?

She needs a dose of reality that exposure can help to bring about. Is the OM married? You can expose to his W on the proof you currently have.

Buy and read Surviving an Affair by Willard Harley. See if you can get her to read it too.

<small>[ February 14, 2005, 08:07 AM: Message edited by: Trix ]</small>

Thanks for the response. I would assume her work does have a policy about this kind of thing. I am not sure though. Why do you ask? It is not her superior just a coworker. He is single so I don't have any leverage of exposing him. He is new to her work. (about 7 months there).

options

Here is a link to a thread that discusses exposure.

WAT's Exposure 101

The concept of concentric circles of exposure is interesting:

Concentric circles of exposure

There are other threads that have discussed the importance of exposure.

I think that exposure may be your next step.
At some point exposing at her work may be necessary. She will be angry after any exposure. Expect it.

options,

You should assume that there is still contact. There's really no need to hire a PI, in my opinion, to confirm what you know in your gut. As long as she has not committed to NC then assume it's still ongoing. How does this change what you do? It doesn't at all. You continue to Plan A. You're still negotiating for NC.

Forget about getting any positive response. Plan A is about selflessness. Have you read about Giver and Taker? To do an effective Plan A you must push your Taker down and allow Giver to give without getting anything in return. Just try to keep making love deposits.

Also keep in mind that Plan A may not succeed. If that happens, then Plan B is the next step. During Plan B you stop meeting needs. It is then that they remember the deposits that you made and they start missing you. Hopefully, this is enough for them to commit to NC.

Remember, the goal is NC. Once NC is committed to then recovery is possible.

Yes, you are seeing this clearly. It is addiction and she may want it to stop but she is unable to.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It is going on 6 weeks now. I would think that after 6 weeks of NC w/ OM that it would be better than it is now. I guess that is partly why my gut is telling me she is still seeing OM.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As I say, I think it's safe to say that there is still contact. Even casual contact at work keeps the addiction going. She may be driving past his house or something even. That is still contact. Until she commits to NC for life, assume that contact is still going on.

As far as exposure, I'm not real clear on how exposing at workplace is an effective strategy. Others may have more experience with this or you may find something in articles that helps. Sorry I can't be of help here.

Detachment - You should be doing things on your own. You don't want to appear needy. It also gives you a break from the situation. You might try making plans to do fun things and invite her along. If she declines, do them anyway.

I hope I addressed all of your questions. If I missed some, post them again and I'll take a stab.

Thanks for your posts...Sorry for the long post here but I wanted to give you an update on her actions and my feelings...

Update last night- She is still very cold and distant. No touching, no hugging, no kissing, and when she talks to me it is only about the kids. We are sleeping in the same bed but there is a line drawn down the middle and if she bumps me during the night she pulls away. It almost seems like she is more distant now than 1-2 weeks ago. Also, I think she may feel guilty about V-Day since I went all out (Dinner, show, flowers card,etc.)and she did almost nothing (no card). I am still doing plan A the best I know how. No LB’s and trying to meet her EN's but it is hard because she won't let me meet most of them. Domestic support, financial support, honesty and openness, family commitment are all ones that I am doing very good lately. However, she has become very independent over the past year because of our problems that lead to the A and I wonder if any deposits are being made. She cleans the house very good; she has a good job financially, and is wonderful with the kids. All my energy these days are going towards plan A and I have been taking a break from her lately to not appear clingy. What else can I do?

She has not told me that she is committed to NC but if I ask her if she has had contact then she will says no. (Generally in a sarcastic way though) She will no elaborate on it either and give me any reassurance.

I really do not want to expose right now and I have no proof the A is still going on -just a hunch because of how distant she is being but maybe she is just going through withdrawal? For the most part I feel I can continue with plan A. How long does plan A go on until you say it didn't work and go to plan B? I am sure there is no clear answer to that question but maybe I will just know in time.

How do you negotiate NC when she works at the same place? She will not quit her job. I have asked to do that. She says you just want me out of there and I said yes. She said that is the only independence I have right now.

options

Independence - You can read about independence on this site. She may have to decide between marriage and independence - they are mutually exclusive but she probably doesn't realize that right now. The goal we should be working towards is interdependence - she depends on you for some things and you depend on her for some things. Total independence is what is called being single. I doubt that you will get very far explaining this to her however.

My advice is to just keep Plan A'ing. That's really about all you can do right now. Continue making needed changes to yourself. She will notice if you make real lasting changes though it may talke awhile for her to trust that they are for real rather than just a tactic for winning her back.

It's time for Plan B when you feel that your love for her is at risk because she continues contact.

You may want to set up some MB telephone counseling for yourself to get some advice. The advice that you get here can vary in quality. I never went to Plan B, although I probably should have, so that is not within my expertise. You might also want to read Mortarman's story and even start a new topic asking him about Plan B.

Here is a link that discusses Plan A and Plan B:
Plan A Plan B

I just read the article "Why Women Leave Men"

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8111_leave.html

I wish I would have read this article a year ago....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Each day I am confronted by women who are extremely frustrated with their marriages. They usually express no hope that their husbands will ever understand what it is that frustrates them, let alone change enough to solve the problem. From their perspective, marital problems are created by their husbands who do little or nothing to solve them. Wives tend to see themselves as the major force for resolving conflicts, and when they give up their effort, the marriage is usually over.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This quote from the article really bothered me...

This article really hit home as to how I was pre A. From reading this article I know I have an uphill battle. It seems to me that I have 2 problems to overcome. 1) getting her to trust that my change to meet her EN's is lasting and 2) getting her out of the A.

I just hope it is not too late.

You have a very good grasp of what needs to occur. The advantage that you have is that you have a plan and you know what you want; your wife has no idea what she wants or a plan. Eventually, if you are consistent in your behavior she will come around to trusting you, I think. Persuading her to commit to no contact may be very difficult however. As I said before she may think that it's ok to be friends and have casual contact. She has to be persuaded that this is addiction. If she begins to trust and to believe that you have her best interests at heart then she may begin to realize that she is addicted to OM. At that point she may realize that NC is absolutely necessary for recovery of your marriage.

<small>[ February 15, 2005, 12:05 PM: Message edited by: legato ]</small>

You are right, I think I have a plan but it is just extremely hard to follow sometimes given my emotions. After reading the discussion board and seeing that I seem to be so early in the process of saving my marriage it gets overwhelming. I do not know how I can take this for 6-8 months to years.... That is why I need you guys for support I guess.

Also, I have read on the discussion board that many of the people did not see an improvement from WW until they (BS) started concentrating on themselves. Making themselves better. I wonder in what way. I feel I have made myself a better person by trying to be a better husband and father. Should I put more focus on me to get her to respect me more?

Also, I was reading about how to understand the difference between fog babble and what is legitmate talk. I do feel some of what she is saying is legimate. Again, that is why the article "Why women leave men" hit home so much to me. She said exactly what is said in the article. She has told me before that it is not about the A. Before I didn't believe her but now I am thinking maybe that is legimate talk. I guess either way I take the same strategy, Plan A, correct?

Six months is probably the longest that you should go. Set a time limit for how long you will do this. If at some point you feel like no progress is being made at all then it may be time for Plan B.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Should I put more focus on me to get her to respect me more?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, yes. Plan A is about improving yourself while negotiating for NC. But improving yourself is not about getting her to respect you so much as it is correcting where you have been lacking in the past. We're talking about permanent changes here. Even if your marriage ends in divorce you will be better prepared for another relationship and hopefully won't repeat the previous mistakes.

Yes, the A was about getting her needs met that you were not meeting. Although she would probably say something like "it just happened". At least she is not saying that OM is her soulmate and God must have brought them together. That seems to be another common babble utterance.

I believe there is a certain amount of "teaching you a lesson" also. Turning to someone else is absolutley the wrong way to address marital problems but it seems that humans are just wired this way. I know that I have been tempted in the past as well due to my needs not being met. It seems that we don't know how to express what our needs are, we're afrad that we'll be rejected, or we've tried to explain but nothing changes. So, turning to someone else and keeping it secret is somehow easier. Very sad.

Teaching a lesson... that is very sad... I am working very hard on improving myself where I had been lacking in the past and I think that will be an easy permanent change. I am definitly a different person for the better now.

Update- She had another impromptu outing tonight. Said she was going shopping. I am home with the kids again which is great but it just seems like she is going out all the time for petty reasons. I guess my gut feeling is correct.

Do you have any advice on how to negotiate NC?

All I can tell you is what I did. I let her know that this contact was hurting me. I told her that her feelings for me would not return as long as there was contact. I told her it was addiction. She would argue with me; try to tell me that I was making too much of it; they were just friends and that I shouldn't feel the way I did. She absolutely refused to commit to no contact. At one point she told me that they would remain friends forever.

I really kind of did all of the wrong things at first. Then I came to this site and started reading. I also started reading "Love Must Be Tough".

One night after about a month of this I just finally told her if she was going to keep this up then she needed to start making other living arrangements. She ended up moving out but we still saw each other. Her apartment was a mile from home so I would go over there and hang out and we dated and spent time together. But the contact continued. I continued to Plan A, probably too long.

She always said that she was going to come home. I told her if she was coming back home it would have to be no contact and she finally agreed.

I did catch her having some phone contact after she moved home and we had to have a discussion about that.

You know that NC is essential so you just plainly state it but it's probably going to fall on deaf ears at this point. Don't argue about it; it's not really negotiable. You're just trying to get her to buy in and it will take time. The simple truth is that this is addiction and NC is the only cure and the first step towards recovery but she doesn't see it that way right now. and it's a hard sell.

I believe that in your case one thing that you might consider is if you end up going to Plan B you might want to move far enough so that if she is going to join you she will have to change jobs. You may get advice telling you that you should not be the one to leave and I don't disagree with that. But she is going to have to change jobs for there to be no contact so you may need to help that along.

Have you considered MB phone counseling? It is expensive but I have heard that it is very worthwhile.

thanks for the advice again. I guess should go back and read my thread again.... Sorry if you had to repeat.

You are right. I think I have a long time yet before I go to plan B but I have already thought about who would move out. My initial reaction is that the wife should move out to experience all the consequences of her actions. But with my job and the kids there are a lot of factors that play into it too. I will keep thinking about that. I agree, she needs to get a new job or just quit. We could downsize and live on my income. I would be extremely happy with that. I have mentioned that to her and she is no way liking that idea.

I did look into MB counseling. It is expensive. I guess I should just do it. I would still like her to join me in it but I don't see that happening just yet. We are together on our finances and she will have to approve it to so to speak- no LB right?. I will see what I can do.

Thanks again for the advice, posting, and support.. I will keep you updated.

options

Legato,

Did you ever expose the A in your situation? I have mixed feelings about it. I know it is part of plan A but should it be the last resort of plan A? I am just thinking of all my options.

options

No, I never really exposed. I should have. That probably dragged it out longer also. My older son was really PO'd at her for moving out. He probably would have cut her off completely had he known what was really going on. I can see now how that would have been better.

legato,
Here is what I am thinking now. She has grown more distant over the past week. I need to talk to her about NC again. I think she was starting to come out of the fog a bit a week ago but then recently she has had more contact with OM and has grown very distant. (I can't prove this though, just a gut feeling)
I am not good with wording and would like some opinions on how to approach NC with her without love busting. I think doing it in a letter might be best as she could read it over and over if it hit a nerve. What are some opinions out there? Does anyone have any sample letters that negotiate NC? Any help would be appreciated.

I am following plan A and think I need to give negotiating NC more of an effort with her before I go to the next step of exposure. Anyway, that is my plan is at this time.

All advice is appreciated.

options

Help, I have confirmed that last night she met OM. What to do?

Should I confront her about it? Should I expose? Should I let it go as I don't know?

help