UPDATE- Well, last night MC went as I feared it would. Within 2 min of being there it turned from an MC session into a divorce counselinga and coparenting session. Our MC said that WW expressed her desire to end the M and that she wanted to spend the time counseling us on cohabitation and coparenting.

Our MC falls for my WW's fog hook line and sinker, taking it at all on its face. I stopped the session right there and told both WW and MC that I was here for MC and that I would no longer discuss the details of the destruction of our M with her or WW. That it does no good and that the lawyers would handle that if/when D is filed. That I am proM and that is what I am here to discuss.

We then discussed the underlying problems in our M that led to the A's. I agreed with what was said. We were both conflict avoiders. My WW has an overwhelming desire to please people and doesn't express feelings that may hurt others. Represses them and then expresses them in harmful ways, such as A's. There was a lot of negligence on both parties in our M. I agreed.

So what is the answer. To continue to be negligent, to not discuss these issues and work for solutions to the problems we have, I said. Or should we continue the same pattern of behavior and not learn from our mistakes, run, hide, and file for D? WW said that too much damage had been done. OUR MC AGREED WITH HER. Both called our M 'a lost cause'.

I proposed my idea of working 3 hours a week, reading and discussing relationship books and actively working with MC. WW said NO, she does not wish to, she has made her decision to D. MC basically threw up her hands and said, 'well I can't make her'. No cr*p.

WW claims she has tried real hard to make things work. We went over the actions (inactions mostly) she took to resolve our differences.

Towards the end it came down to my wish to work on M, WW desire to end it. So I said, "that's it then, well, I'm leaving". MC told me to sit back down. That we needed to discuss DS and coparenting. She wanted to continue joint C through the divorce proceedings. I told her I had no wish to see or talk with WW again once D is filed. Then I was given the guilt trip about how I am not doing what is in DS best interest. I said that DS best interest is for his parents to grow up, work on our M and provide a loving happy home. WW, that is not going to happen. I left refusing any further counseling unless it is proM, that if I so choose that I may consider counseling post D. I also asked MC how many M had she counseled, how many dealt with infidelity? I have lived and breathed this 24/7 for the past 5+ months, read all I could find and learned as much as I could about this subject. Said MC doesn't even see that what WW and I are going through and that this looks like a classic A to me, stories that I have read about, read posted here, situations that mirror our own. MC said she thought WW's A was the tool to end the M (exit A). I asked WW if I had never found out, where would be, would A have run its course and would she have just slipped back into R. She didn't know, hadn't thought about that.

Bottom line, IMO our MC sucked. Now, I can't even get WW to discuss anything with me, she is flat withdrawn. No way to get us to a "good" MC now.

So what now. I told WW that if she did not want to be around me, like she said, then she should move out and we should seperate and come up with some sort of arrangement. That she decided on D without even experiencing what D life is going to be like. She refuses to leave the home. I am stuck with a WW who wants a D, won't even work on our underlying problems, will make no effort whatsoever, does not have the financial resources to hire a lawyer to file D (or she would have done so already). Total limbo and in the worst possible situation. I cannot leave and will not leave. Stalemate.

This is not healthy for anyone. I did not sleep last night, I know now I will get no peace. I want to remove myself from this sitch, any little feelings I have towards WW are turning to hatred. Last night I dcouldn't stand being in the same house as her. I just wanted her gone.

I do not know what to do. I am wondering if I should just file, try to settle this on the best terms I can, but mostly get something moving here. I do not want a D, I want to reconcile. The only reason I see for filing is to force a plan B sitch, I can control (hopefully) the process then (pull papers if need be), get WW off her cakeating and out of the house, get some peace. Then if it does come to D, I can protect DS from what I see as WW's lack of values. The fog is thicker than mud. (It will be best for DS if we D, etc.)

BTW, WW said she made her "decision" a month ago. MC added that she thought she mad it way before then, that it was made when she started the A.

HELP, HELP, HELP fellow MB'ers. How should I proceed. Mortarman, BaddaysGooddays, et al. Are you out there.

UPDATE- Well, last night MC went as I feared it would. Within 2 min of being there it turned from an MC session into a divorce counselinga and coparenting session. Our MC said that WW expressed her desire to end the M and that she wanted to spend the time counseling us on cohabitation and coparenting.

Our MC falls for my WW's fog hook line and sinker, taking it at all on its face. I stopped the session right there and told both WW and MC that I was here for MC and that I would no longer discuss the details of the destruction of our M with her or WW. That it does no good and that the lawyers would handle that if/when D is filed. That I am proM and that is what I am here to discuss.

We then discussed the underlying problems in our M that led to the A's. I agreed with what was said. We were both conflict avoiders. My WW has an overwhelming desire to please people and doesn't express feelings that may hurt others. Represses them and then expresses them in harmful ways, such as A's. There was a lot of negligence on both parties in our M. I agreed.

So what is the answer. To continue to be negligent, to not discuss these issues and work for solutions to the problems we have, I said. Or should we continue the same pattern of behavior and not learn from our mistakes, run, hide, and file for D? WW said that too much damage had been done. OUR MC AGREED WITH HER. Both called our M 'a lost cause'.

I proposed my idea of working 3 hours a week, reading and discussing relationship books and actively working with MC. WW said NO, she does not wish to, she has made her decision to D. MC basically threw up her hands and said, 'well I can't make her'. No cr*p.

WW claims she has tried real hard to make things work. We went over the actions (inactions mostly) she took to resolve our differences.

Towards the end it came down to my wish to work on M, WW desire to end it. So I said, "that's it then, well, I'm leaving". MC told me to sit back down. That we needed to discuss DS and coparenting. She wanted to continue joint C through the divorce proceedings. I told her I had no wish to see or talk with WW again once D is filed. Then I was given the guilt trip about how I am not doing what is in DS best interest. I said that DS best interest is for his parents to grow up, work on our M and provide a loving happy home. WW, that is not going to happen. I left refusing any further counseling unless it is proM, that if I so choose that I may consider counseling post D. I also asked MC how many M had she counseled, how many dealt with infidelity? I have lived and breathed this 24/7 for the past 5+ months, read all I could find and learned as much as I could about this subject. Said MC doesn't even see that what WW and I are going through and that this looks like a classic A to me, stories that I have read about, read posted here, situations that mirror our own. MC said she thought WW's A was the tool to end the M (exit A). I asked WW if I had never found out, where would be, would A have run its course and would she have just slipped back into R. She didn't know, hadn't thought about that.

Bottom line, IMO our MC sucked. Now, I can't even get WW to discuss anything with me, she is flat withdrawn. No way to get us to a "good" MC now.

So what now. I told WW that if she did not want to be around me, like she said, then she should move out and we should seperate and come up with some sort of arrangement. That she decided on D without even experiencing what D life is going to be like. She refuses to leave the home. I am stuck with a WW who wants a D, won't even work on our underlying problems, will make no effort whatsoever, does not have the financial resources to hire a lawyer to file D (or she would have done so already). Total limbo and in the worst possible situation. I cannot leave and will not leave. Stalemate.

This is not healthy for anyone. I did not sleep last night, I know now I will get no peace. I want to remove myself from this sitch, any little feelings I have towards WW are turning to hatred. Last night I dcouldn't stand being in the same house as her. I just wanted her gone.

I do not know what to do. I am wondering if I should just file, try to settle this on the best terms I can, but mostly get something moving here. I do not want a D, I want to reconcile. The only reason I see for filing is to force a plan B sitch, I can control (hopefully) the process then (pull papers if need be), get WW off her cakeating and out of the house, get some peace. Then if it does come to D, I can protect DS from what I see as WW's lack of values. The fog is thicker than mud. (It will be best for DS if we D, etc.)

BTW, WW said she made her "decision" a month ago. MC added that she thought she mad it way before then, that it was made when she started the A.

HELP, HELP, HELP fellow MB'ers. How should I proceed. Mortarman, BaddaysGooddays, et al. Are you out there.

<small>[ February 10, 2005, 02:12 PM: Message edited by: Bear04. ]</small>

Bear,

All I can say to you is that I am very proud of you for standing up to your WW and worthless counselor. This may have been a very good thing, a very good thing indeed. I think you have expressed yourself very well regarding your confidence that this marriage is saveable. Bravo!

Just sit tight, don't do anything. The ball is in her court. The cards are all on the table. What will she do next is anyone's guess but I would say that she can sit on the fence no longer. She is going to make a move one way or the other - either towards D or back towards your marriage.

It probably doesn't feel so good for you right now but to me your position is very good. You have made yourself very clear and you were basically outnumbered to boot! Stick to your guns.

<small>[ February 09, 2005, 04:41 PM: Message edited by: legato ]</small>

Thanks for the encouragement. I have really been doubting if I did the right think today. I did badger WW waayyy to much last night when we got home. I should have just shut up and went to my room, I didn't. I did not AO, I spoke the truth. Unfortunately, to those in fogland the truth can be LB's.

Anyway, I am now going to keep my mouth shut. WW needs some time alone to think. I am going to give her the space she has been asking for.

Any thoughts on this whole living sitch. Should I file? I don't want to. So there, I have my answer for right now.

<small>[ February 09, 2005, 04:49 PM: Message edited by: Bear04. ]</small>

Well, I know that you're tempted... it's up to you but how about just waiting to see if your stance for marriage has an effect?

I doubt it. You know what else ticks me off. Iheard one of her friends already congratulated her on her decision. Said that she was glad Ww wants a D. Man am I peeved at that. Don't know why I should care. Just hate to see someone happy at the tear up of this family.

That really sucks. It's too bad that she seems to be surrounded by all of this 'support'.

Hi Bear. I read what happened yesterday but did not have the ability to respond. First off, I agree with Legato (I think he is very smart, gives you very sound advice). You did the right and brave thing, as exhausting as it may have felt, it showed incredible strength. One day, hopefully, your W will see that. Anyhow, in the meantime, you know you did.

Most people in the world, IMO, are cowards, and will give cowardly advice. Witness your W's friends and the counsellor. Comfort yourself in the fact that the people who love your W the most (you and her parents), and who loved her first, are telling her what she does not want to hear.

Seems to me that your W really is a conflict avoider (as you have already said). Even the MC session appears that way: she used an intermediary to say what she wanted to say. Well, whether she divorces you or not, if she doesn't adress this problem in her life (with you in it or not), she'll likely head down the same road again because all relationships eventually involve conflict. Running away is not the answer in the long term. So again, give yourself some congratulations for not falling into the same sort of trap.

Coming from a FWW's perspective, I can tell you that A's are often a form of escape, so I don't know if I buy the "exit A" thing. Further, in your W's case, her choice in the OM made an "escape" with him highly unlikely, even she acknowledged that fact, right? And she came back after the other two, right? I'm just a little skeptical about all that, especially since your W returned home to you.

Yes, she may want to escape pretty badly, and she may want to avoid conflict pretty badly, so from her perspective, what to do? Why, make life unbearable for you (just as it is for her) until YOU make the decision for her.

My guess is she feels like [censored] inside, probably just as badly as you do, for all her own reasons. I know it is hard, but please try to remember that. Do you see any glee in her eyes through all this?

Anyhow, so she (sort of said with a third party in her corner) said those awful words. Look to her actions, let her actions speak. I think I told you once that saying "I want a divorce" is liberating in a strange way because then you have to make a choice. I guess what I am saying is that words are easy, but actions, concrete actions are much harder.

I don't think it is a stalemate, or that is has to be. The more time you have together, the more chance you have to show her why leaving is wrong for her. As a FWW, my concern in the early months, was that my H could never change. Well, months later, he is proving me wrong. Slowly, it takes hard work, and I've had to admit what I was doing wrong to aggravate many situations (what a bitter pill). At least your session addressed some problems in marriage, and you both acknowledged them.

"How to deal with a conflict avoider" should maybe be another thread?

Anyhow Bear, I hope today has been better.

Well, as a matter of fact, no it hasn't. Last night I went up to my room to read a bit. I left the light on downstairs, but I planned on going right back down. Being so tired, I fell asleep with my own bedroom light on and left the light on downstairs. WW woke up in the middle of the night and took that opportunity to wake me up and rip me for leaving the light on downstairs.

Then this AM, she tells me that she is picking up DS from daycare today. I asked, why? I'd do it. (let's remember here, I have always done this. I have been responsible for picking him up since shortly after he started daycare). So, she got snippy with me, what do you mean why? I pointed out that she had never done this before, why now. She is also working from home tomorrow and will pick him up again. That makes 4 of 5 nights this week, with the other being our SIL the night we were at MC. SHe has never, since the first weeks he was an infant, picked him up this much. In fact, once a week was rare.

She said her "peek" season at work was over and that she had more time. She called me a jerk. I ended it by saying that it wasn't that she was picking him up it was the reasons why that made me angry. I left a msg on her phone later telling her a little how I felt, that what I saw was the reason she was picking him up now is just because she wants a D and wants to look good. That I have always done this, this is my job. That I was upset that her motives were to do it for herself when she could have had plenty of opportunities to show me she cared by making the effort to pick him up but she never did. Basically, it was her motivation that ticked me off.

These are major LB's, I know this. But her doing this, this is what I feel. I have been told my role as her husband is over. Now another one of my duties is being taken from me. The only joy I have is when I pick up DS and he comes running to me, with open arms, screaming "Daddyyyyyy, my Daddy's here." I start looking forward to this right after lunch each day...My hands are shaking and I am teering up just posting this...Anyway, I see her as doing this purely for selfish reasons, depriving me of my daily joy, only doing it because she has to try to make up for all the times she didn't. My attorney told me to watch for this change of behavior. SHe is trying to be Supermom. SHe never made time for this before, why now?

Anyways, none of this fighting is helpful. It only chases her away. What should I do? Stuff my feelings and just take it. Let her walk right over me. Just say, okay, and let her assume my roles?

This sounds like a power struggle; as you say, not very productive. Don't get sucked into it. Yes, her Taker is in control or rather, out of control. Don't let her Taker or yours control you.

So, no, you shouldn't let her walk all over you. Neither should you get down in the dirt and wrestle around with her. Just simply tell her how you feel just like you did here. You enjoy picking up son; it gives you joy. You would like to continue to do so. Suggest a compromise maybe. How about if I pick him up x times per week. Try to negotiate.

It could very well be that she is not open to negotiation. She just wants to try and make your life as miserable as possible? I don't know how to advise you in that instance. You two are at cross-purposes; you are trying to restore marriage and she is looking for more justification for D. If that is the case just let her go. Tell her she wins and you're not going to fight with her anymore. Whatever she wants to do, you will do nothing to try and stop her. That doesn't mean letting her walk over you or stuffing your feelings.

It just sounds like she has decided she wants D and she is trying to goad you into doing it for her since it seems she lacks the means or the will to do it herself.

You know a legal separation might be in order. Iknow it's complicated in your state but you may want to check into it. That way you are still refusing to assist in divorce but she is getting what she thinks she wants. Just some ideas. You're there on the scene so you're really the best one to decide what needs to happen.

The only thing I thought of when reading this was that the smart fish, you know the big ones that always get away, learn how to recognize bait and learn how to not take the hook.

You took the hook about your son and you know it. I don't think you have to roll over and play dead. I do think that you can express your feelings about the matter at hand. What I mean is, you can tell her your reasons for picking up your son, everything you said today about missing him, looking forward to seeing him, routine, etc. Don't let yourself get caught into the other issues (easy to say right?). If picking up your son is an emotional issue for you, then say so. Let her know that she is welcome to join you and that perhaps all three of you could go to the park, or toboganning, or out for a treat afterwards, that it would be good for your son to have some time with the two of you together. Maybe try not to make everything so "either/or"? Maybe leave it open so that she has to make some suggestions?

Bear, she has a lot of emotional energy arising from the A and its consequences that she will transform and direct at you. She hasn't been back two months. I can tell you that my H and I got worse before we got better, and as you know, sometimes it can still be awful between us. You really need some face-to-face help from a professional GOOD MC who can help you deal with the stress and learn how to change your reactions to her. Go by yourself for now, don't worry about joint counselling.

One thing that came out between my H and I this weekend was that I (have, in the past) made assumptions about what he is feeling or the motives behind his actions or requests. You know, I realized that even making so called harmless assumptions is judgmental. Maybe if you cannot stop yourself from doing it, you can simply state your wishes and the reasons. Don't assume you know what is inside her head, it is rather arrogant, whether you are right or wrong.

Hope tonight goes as well as it can. Hang in there.

Good advice, both of you.

Yes, I knew it was bait and I took it. Seems like everything is bait. Or is it? Is it just our perceptions that screw things up. If it was one year ago, and she was doing the picking up, I'd say "thank you" and see it as love (act of service/5 love languages), but since it comes right on the heels of her telling me she wants a D, I see this as no love act but an act of aggression. Of trying to manipulate me and the system and lay groundwork for custody. Should I be blamed for feeling that way?

This is a talk I have to have tonight. Explain things, get them out in the open, like they never were before. Downside. Yet another 'serious' talk. We all know she loves these. Another oppportunity to get sucked into a fight

Or an opportunity to focus on the one issue and if she starts shifting it over to something else only listen to what she says and then try to perhaps guide the talk back to the issue under discussion.

Or, don't even talk about it at all. Just leave it hanging.

Whatever you do, do not get into a serious talk. Bear is no longer willing to have any serious talks. You hear me? Bear will listen but he will not talk serious. Bear wants to try and make home as pleasant as possible while he still can.

No more LB from you, my friend. This is a critical time. Don't give her any more justification for wanting to split.

Bear04,

Here download and read this pronto!

Good luck to you.

<small>[ February 10, 2005, 06:07 PM: Message edited by: Better man, Better off ]</small>

Downloaded it, printed it, and reading it.

Update-Calmly had a discussion about the DS pickup sitch. Told her what I felt about it, of course she said I was seeing things the wrong way. I agreed with her and suggested that since we both wanted to be involved with the care of our DS that we could alternate days. When I picked him up at night, she could take him in the morning, allowing her to go to work later and stay later, and other days I could take him and she could go to work early and leave early. POJA? We didn't get into details of the schedule, she just said OK, we could do that. No fighting.

Later, I screwed up, or did I? Well, if the ultimate goal is to save my M I did. I looked at her cell phone. There, in the speed dial, guess who, OM's #. Well, I thought she was done with him. Guess not. SO I brought it up to her. SHe said things are over. I said, then there would be no need for this #. It's here so obviously you still at least talk to him. Do you know how that makes me feel? What if I had a GF, etc? She said, if bothers you I'll erase it. I said no, why would you do that, that is what you want, I mean you want a D, so what does it matter if you have OM's #. WW, I didn't want you thinkijng the reason I want a D is to leave for him. I said I know that they had no future, but I'll never believe that he wasn't a major reason for the breakup of our M. How would it be if he never came along? Probably different, we wopuldn't be in this sitch. So, whatever, do what you want, I guess I have license to do whatever I want? She said, if you want to. I answered, you wouldn't like that, trust me, it doesn't feel very good.

So, that exchange was most likely an LB, the spying was, I am sure. I was honest about it. It doesn't really bother me if it was an LB. We get so concerned about LB's and not upsetting the WS. You know what, all the cr*p I have put up with are freaking humongous LB's. That # in her phone, major LB. Her sleeping with OM, pretty much a nuclear LB. I am tired of it, and I don't have to take this anymore.

WW did drop the invasion of privacy thing. I said yeah, I invaded it, and I feel bad about it, which I did, but we shouldn't be in this sitch. I just want this craziness to stop. I added that she calls it her privacy and her private life, but what she does with it directly impacts both mine and DS's lives. So she can call it private, but we, I believe, have a right to know what's going on due to its effect on us.

She had made spaghetti for us. After this she said, well don't you want to eat. I said no, I'm not hungry anymore. She looked disappointed, her tone of voice was. I haven't talked with her since.

I am really feeling like I am done. If she wanted to reconcile and work on the M, I would. I do not feel the urge to worry and chase after her and plan A and keep banging my head against the wall. Am I fine if we D, I don't know, it would still hurt. I guess when I say I am done, I am saying I am done chasing and putting out the effort to reach her. Maybe that is exactly what is needed.

<small>[ February 11, 2005, 10:28 AM: Message edited by: Bear04. ]</small>

Bear,

It sounds to me as if something has shifted for the better. You had a calm discussion and came to an agreement. You're done with chasing her; I think that is very good. Stay right where you are and let her either move towards you or farther away. Keep the ball in her court.

It just sounds like you're both tired of fighting and that is good. So, maybe you could sneak a deposit into her Love Bank? Maybe some flowers? I think it might make a big difference.

Legato- No flowers, no nothing, no chasing. I feel liberated today with my new mindset. I was in really bad shape yesterday. The stress, the pressure, the depression. You know, when I saw his name in her phone, 10 minutes after our convo, I felt strangely liberated. It didn't even bother me much. Disappointed, yes, more like an "oh well" attitude. I watched a couple of CSI's, Without a Trace, little more TV, went to bed. No panicking, no worrying, no fretting over my future.

What is this feeling? Will it last is another question? What if WW goes out this weekend and sleeps with OM or another, how would I feel? Well, I'll tell you I would feel devastated, but I also wouldn't be waiting to be served, I'd be serving.

So, am I pulling away, starting to seperate? I think so, what do you all think? I still want my M to work, I'd still want to reconcile. I'm just not going to beat myself up anymore because, really, it is out of my hands.

You definitely sound better. I'm glad to hear it.

Better man- Just wanted to say that I have read about half that book. I see a lot of points that the author makes, particularly about agreeing and stopping the arguing and getting a life, etc.

I don't see how one could make this a way of life, always agreeing with your spouse, constantly keeping them off guard. It's like he always plays the "chase" game, and partners never can be comfortable and content in their R.

I guess I'll take what works for me and leave what doesn't. One thing that will work is the agreeing and "being my own man".