TT,

You are right...there really is no ending to this "argument," if this was an argument. And like I said in my previous post, I do not chose to get into an argument. I only want to present the truth...and let others chose for themselves.

Was what that missionary saying true? In a sense, yes. And in a sense, no. You see, the Bible says that a person can see God without the Word...that the heavens and the Earth will testify to Him. That by looking at the wolrd around this person, they can know of Jesus and know of God. Will they know of the Cross, or anything like that? No. But they can know Him...and have that relationship with Him.

Again, do we have the full answer to what happens to the person trapped in a foreign land and has never heard the Word preached? No. Some of those questions will have to be answered when we get there.

But that isnt the question for you, or for anyone else that has heard the Word. Because a person that has heard the Word, and not accepted Jesus, has no excuse for the decision that they have made. None.

It is like children. If a two month old dies, where do they go? Well, I believe God only holds accountable those that can be held accountable. And there is some Scripture to back that up. But take the argument further...then what age does a child becoem accountable? The answer is...I dont know. No man knows. But I do know God...and I know He is just. And He will hold us accountable for what we should have known, and did know.

If you come to my state one day, and you drive through it and stop for the night. And let's say that Virginia passed some law that you didnt know about, but you broke that law while you were here. Well, when you go before the judge...guess what? You still get convicted. Why? Because ignorance is not an excuse.

You see, our great grandfather Adam and grandmother Eve did us a great disservice. They passed sin on to us. Just as some parents pass on birth defects. We ALL have this defect passed onto us. Was it God's fault this was passed onto us? No. Because of what they did, they were condemned to death (because all sin has the penalty of death...no matter how little or big). But God spared them and their children...and so on. How did He do that? Well, someone else had to take their place...to pay their penalty. At first, they used animals to do so...sacrificed them for their sins. But then God sent His Son as the payment, for all sins, for all time. The ultimate pardon!! But if you refuse to accept it, if yo uare condemned to death (hell) and you refuse to accept the pardon (Jesus), then guess what? Then you have to pay the penalty. That IS fair. That IS just. That IS loving.

I punish my kids. Why? Because I am cruel and hateful? No. Because I love them. They can chose to disobey. But when they do, they also chose the penalty.

The question here is not what happens to someone that has never heard the word, because God's nature and example give us an idea of how He handles such things...thru love and justice.

The question is...once presented with what Jesus has done for you, do you accept it and follow Him? If you make that choice, then you are assured of eternity with Him. But if you make the choice not to follow Him (and refusing to make a choice is still making the choice to not follow Him), then you will spend eternity without Him.

Eternity without God is hell.

Yes, we all are on this planet, living side by side, with many of the same struggles and concerns. Trying to feed and clothe and educate our kids. Do our jobs.

But in the end, what is life really? It is just waiting at the bus station. THIS IS NOT HOME!! We have not arrived there yet. Life is temporary. While I am not a Donald Trump fan, what he said the other day dovetails this...."life is what you do while we wait to die." Life is temporary.

You see, being in the military, I understand this. When I have been deployed, Uncle sam gives me a room, and a bed, abd a place to put my stuff. Is that "home." No, my home is in Virginia, with my family. So, for those 6 months or 12 months...my new home is just a temporary home, until I can get on that plane and head to my real home.

Well, life is like that too. This is all just temporary. Our real home awaits us. But the choice is, by how we live life...we make a choice on which bus we will take when it is our time to leave to go home. The one to heaven has but just one criteria...follow Jesus. The other bus, which is a lot bigger than the first...anyone can get on. And you must get on one of them.

So, the ultimate question of life is what have you done, what are you doing in life while you are waiting for the bus? Are you doing the things that would get you on that first bus...to heaven? And what is that requirement? To be friends with Jesus. And guess what, since He is your friend, He will sit with you at that bus stop for your entire life and be with you and interact with you...until it is time to go with him to heaven. But, if you dont become his friend at the bus stop...and then want to just jump on his bus....well, that just isnt possible.

Liek I said, I am not here to convert anyone. Only God can do that. I am not here to defend Him, because He is much better equipped to do that Himself. But I will present the truth. And when someoen hears it...then they have to make a choice. So, later, they cannot look at Jesus and say they didnt know. And they will be without excuse.

In His arms.

<small>[ February 07, 2005, 12:15 PM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

BlessedTIME,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Friends.
My pastor just prefers Christian counselors to Wiccan/Witchcraft counselors.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And your point? Why was that article and this cop-out statement even relevant to a "Where is Cerri?" thread?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> A prayer to some 'high goddess' would just not have been the same for us!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why would you even make this comparison? Were you given such an option?
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Mortarman, ...
I can tell you are a TRUE BELIEVER.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sure Cerri is a "true believer" in her religion too as I am in mine and you are in yours. Again, what's your point?
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, I am only talking from a PERSONAL point of view.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, it seems that you are. Therefore, you should leave your pastor out of it. This is one of the most passive aggressive attacks I have ever witnessed on a person for any reason.

You apparently have an issue that you might want to take up with cerri personally instead of trying to stir a hornest nest. I'm sure you have her email addy.

<small>[ February 07, 2005, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: ba109 ]</small>

BA109,

Hey look....enough is enough. Cerri and I have gotten along real well on this board together. Even though I am a Christian and she is a Wiccan.

I understand what she was trying to say here about what her pastor told her. And for Christians, much of that should be taken to heart.

I do not believe that this was an attack on Cerri. And I believe Cerri would agree. I think she was just trying to say that Christians are not supposed to take guidance from anyone that isnt getting guidance from the Lord.

Do I believe the Wiccan religion is wrong? Of course I do...I am a follower of Jesus. But, I do not attack Cerri. And many of the things she has done here to help people going thru the hell we all have gone thru has been great.

But I had a circumstance that I think will illuminate what she was trying to get at with her pastors information. The first counselor post-DDay that my wife and I went to was a guy who was an American Indian and followed the Indian faith. now, he was actually the one who first turned me on to MB and its principles. But we left that counslor. Why? Not because he wasnt teaching the MB principles and not because he wasnt pro-marriage. It was because he was not a Christian, and thus...from my beliefs...he is incapable of giving me and my wife the counseling we need. Which is provided by the Holy Spirit. You see, all the MB principles in the world are great. But not enough. So, when I needed the counselor to answer some questions that were between the lines so to speak...or better stated, that MB principles didnt specifically cover, he would not be able to give me the guidance I needed because his guidance would not be coming from God.

That is why Christians should take guidance only from fellow Christians. Not that we are always right, because many Christians do not listen and are not following the Word of God. But a Christian counslor that is following the Word of God, and uses his relationship with the Holy Spirit to help guide people, is the counselor that Christians need.

Again, no hit on Cerri. She is one of the most capable people on here with the MB principles. But even with all of that, it isnt enough for me to recommend a fellow Christian to go to Cerri and receive guidance. That is why you always here me say call SH, or go to your pastor...if you are a Christian.

Like I said, Cerri and I have had these discussions before. And I believe she respects the fact of my faith. And I believe that was what BT was trying to say with her post. It may have been an attack on the Wiccan religion, but it wasnt an attack on Cerri. Just that Christians are commanded to do certain things. And she was admonishing them to do so.

In His arms.

Thanks for expressing your feelings, 'ba'.
I want people to be able to express their feelings on this thread; regardless how they believe.

I am mistaken about something.

For some reason, I had the impression that this was a Christian website and that we would have Christian counselors if we phoned in.

I don't even know why I thought that!
Perhaps I thought that, because so many posters are Christians...don't really know why.....

Sincerely, Julie <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Thanks mortarman, you sure are good at expressing feelings; you explain how I believe and what I am trying to say about Christian counseling for Christian believers better than I can....

And I agree, cerri is one terrific lady that has helped MANY......

<small>[ February 07, 2005, 01:04 PM: Message edited by: Blessed TIME ]</small>

BT,

I think a lot of people make that assumption because if you type in a search for "Christian Marriage Help" or something similar..this site will be part of the result.

Noodle

double

<small>[ February 07, 2005, 01:43 PM: Message edited by: Momto3Boys ]</small>

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

<small>[ February 07, 2005, 01:45 PM: Message edited by: Momto3Boys ]</small>

Do you believe that a true Christian would teach a 4 y/o that God doesn't like the color black because God thinks the color black is EVIL?

I ask this question because my eldest son was going to a Baptist preschool in which they taught him that God says the color black is evil. I explained to my then 4 y/o son that God likes every single color there is..if he didn't there would not be BLACK people, we would not have our three BLACK dogs, there would not be BLACK hair on people...you get the idea????

This is also the same CHRISTIAN church and preschool teachers who taught my son that it was bad for mommy and daddy to disipline him because GOD doens't like it when we do so!

I quickly removed our son from that school!

It is not religion that makes the church bad, it is the judgement BY the people. My son now does not believe in GOD! My 9 y/o son does not believe in God! Explain that one! He was brainwashed in preschool! He was brainwashed by the church that God doesn't like the color black and God doesn't like for mommy and daddy to punish him and countless other things not worth mentioning...

I do believe there is a Higher Spirit...I have never said a word to my son that God does not exist. I have taken him to church, I have spoken to him of why God does exist...he has his own view point...Whether it will change, i dont know! But does that make my son an evil person?

Also, I was wondering why you would assume that MOST posters are christian? And that this site is a christian site! Does it say in the opening page that this is a christian site?

I have never posted MY religious beliefs on here. And is anyone now going to judge ME because my son doesnt' believe in God! BTW, this little boy is a genius, so yes, he understands more than most would give him credit for...He could probably debate this subject better than I could! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Anyway, JMHO!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

<small>[ February 07, 2005, 01:47 PM: Message edited by: Momto3Boys ]</small>

OH MY WORD! I dont know what happened! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

<small>[ February 07, 2005, 01:48 PM: Message edited by: Momto3Boys ]</small>

Mom,

Hey, you were great the other day on TV...BTW!!

Do I believe that what they taught your son there at that church is right? Of course not!! Of course, the Christian church has a litany of abuses and bad people over its history, just like anywhere else.

But I am not talking about religion here. The Bible, the unerring Word of God, does not state that God dislikes the color black. It actually says He created all of us, and loves all of His creation. So, what they taught there was absolutely unScriptural and against the teachings of our Lord.

You see, Christians can get advice and counseling from many places. But in the end, only two count. The Word of God as expressed in the Bible, and what the Holy Spirit tells them. That's it. In reality, that is ALL we need!!!

So anyone professing themselves to be a Christian and then teaches against the Word of God, is wrong...and I would dare question whether they are a Christian at all!! Because like I said, Christianity...true Christianity, is not a religion. It is a relationship. And if that teacher knew Jesus Christ personally, she would have not made that statement. I know Jesus. And anyone that does know Him, knows that she was not teaching in His name!!

I am sorry for your son! Unfortunately, he will have to come thru that. But that is your job, isnt it? You are to teach him right from wrong. To help him get over the confusions of life.

If my son came home with the same issue, I would take him to the Word of God. I would show him what God said. And then ask him...is what that woman said really the truth?

You see, he can make up his own mind. Of course. But the truth must be presented in order for him to make up his mind correctly. If given nothing but wrong choices, then he will always make a wrong choice. But if I show him the truth...and then ask him what he thinks...well, amazingly my kids get it right most of the time.

Some people call it indoctrinating our kids. Well ,to some extent that is true. I indoctrinate my child to use the potty, so he can stop wetting his pants. I indoctrinate my children to do their homework, to respect elders, to look both ways when crossing the street. Because I want them to be safe and to grow up educated and strong. Is that wrong for me to indoctrinate them that way? Can I just say that they need to make up their own mind if they want to go to school or not? Or do I take them to the truth, point it out to them...and then they can figure it out? Indoctrination is not bad...it is only bad when they get falsehoods...and not truth.

So, my answer to you is that you need to show your son who Jesus is. That woman is not Jesus. I am not Him. And Jesus would never say those things.

In His arms.

<small>[ February 07, 2005, 04:17 PM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

Just for informational purposes to those who may be interested:

In Chapter I of HIS NEEDS,HER NEEDS, Willard Harley states that he is a "Christian" with strong belief in this faith. That doesn't meant that this is necessarily a Christian website but he does state this. I also happen to know that HIS NEEDS, HER NEEDS is studied in some local churches where I live.

I think the Chapter can be read on the website.

Mortarman, Thanks for the insight! I have tried, really tried to teach my son about Jesus...BUT he does have his own view on things....I have tried to explain to him that you cannot see a cold, but yet you do know it is there, by the way you FEEL! I cant MAKE him believe in God...I CAN make him do his HW though <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I can direct him in the right direction, I can take him to church, I can preach to him...but in the end, it is his choice whether to believe in God or not...

I have even talked to my Minister, last year about this when I was so concerned about it...He told me not to worry, that in time he will come around...Does that make me not love my son any less cuz he doesn't beleive in God? absolutely NOT!

Evan my other two children have tried to tell him there is a God!

His debate is that You cant SEE God...I certainly do understand where he is coming from...shoot, I'm 36 years old and I dont understand it...even my minister soemtimes doesn't understand it! How can I expect a 9 y/o to understand it...I respect the fact that he is open for discussion about it, and that he will listen, but in the end, he has his own views! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I just really, really got upset with that church for literally brainwashing my child! He would come home with the most absurd stories! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> And I often wonder if that is why he doesn't believe in God now?

He has sat down and watched many films with me, about Jesus Christ...NOT Passion of the Christ! but he does have interest in it!

Thanks Mort! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Mortarman:
<strong> Mom,

Hey, you were great the other day...BTW!!

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">**blushing** thanks! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hi Mom.
I was wondering if you ever talked to your son's teacher about the color 'black' being bad?

I think there must have been a misunderstanding.
Christian churches TEACH this song and this way of thinking:
"Jesus loves the little children, all the children of the world...Red, and yellow, black and white, they are precious in his sight, Jesus loves the little children of the world."

I looked up black representing sin and there were MILLIONS of websites on Google.

Found this:
"I was a child. I remember the day as though it happened yesterday. I was in the Junior girls Sunday School Class. Mrs. Thomas was our teacher. She had this lesson on sin.
She used a black heart and a white heart and said that Jesus could change our black heart of sin to a heart that was white as snow."

Sincerely, Julie <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ February 07, 2005, 02:43 PM: Message edited by: Blessed TIME ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Mortarman:
<strong> I think she was just trying to say that Christians are not supposed to take guidance from anyone that isnt getting guidance from the Lord.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And again, this was relevant to Cherished's inquiry in what way? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I "think" it was a highly inappropriate threadjack and that BT should take up her differences with cerri personally or at the very least post her issues on a site that cerri visits more frequently such as SYMC. This is obviously a matter that BT feels very strong about.

Mortarman, you don't have to post for BT. She can post her own POV. I do however, respect your opinion.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Blessed TIME:
<strong> Thanks for expressing your feelings, 'ba'.
I want people to be able to express their feelings on this thread; regardless how they believe.

I am mistaken about something.

For some reason, I had the impression that this was a Christian website and that we would have Christian counselors if we phoned in.

I don't even know why I thought that!
Perhaps I thought that, because so many posters are Christians...don't really know why.....

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is a common misconception yet, I am not sure why.

Actually, the "misconception" isnt really a misconception at all.

Yes, MB is a site to promote marriage. And it really doesnt say that it promotes Christianity or any religion. But two things come to mind here.

First, Dr. Harley did publish at least one Christian book that I know of in the 1970s entiled "Get Growing, Christian." So I know that much of what he takes from here and much of his background is from the Bible.

Second, the precepts of MB are based on Biblical teachings. That they may also coincide with other religions is not the point. Actually, since they do concide with other religions, it is why the precepts here work well whether you are in a relationship and you are an atheist or a Christian.

But I caution you. The Christian definition of marriage, which is taken by most Americans as the definition, is not necessarily the wolrd's definition. What of the polygamist? Well, these principles do not work!! Except in some warped sense.

So, while not trying to offend anyone and push this website into the Christian dogma realm, I do know that Dr. Harley's background is Christian, that all of what he teaches here is very Scriptural, and I have found that out of most of the advice/counsling out there, this is the best place to go for advice and help that is aligned with God's will.

In His arms.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Mortarman:
<strong> Actually, the "misconception" isnt really a misconception at all.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, it is. Dr, Willard F. Harley Jr. actually suggests the following when seeking marriage counseling:

**********************************
"How to Make Your First Appointment

The yellow pages is probably one of the most common places to discover where to find marriage counselors. Your physician or minister may also be able make suggestions. But the most reliable sources of referral are people who have already seen a counselor that has successfully guided them to romantic love."

***********************************

Imagine that. Not one reference to avoiding Wiccan counsel at all cost. He does not even suggest going to your minister for counsel...but rather for references. Go figure.

Again, this is not a Christian website. If there is religious reference at all, it is non-denominational.

If Dr. Harley was not a Christian, would the information available on this website be considered any less valuable for saving marriages?

BA...

No it wouldnt be less true. A funny thing about the truth is that it is true, no matter what.

Yo uare right...and I hope you didnt mistake what I was saying. This is a marriage building website. And Dr. Harley first and foremost is pursuing the tenets here for rebuilding marriage and having healthy marriages. With that end in mind, that it really doesnt matter what your beliefs are in regards to these tenets.

But, those tenets came from and are based in the Christian faith. That was all I am saying.

It is not a Christian website...all are welcome here and can get what they need for their marriages here.

I liken this to the argument about the founding of this country. Are we a Christian nation? No. Was this country set up by mostly Christian men, utilizinf Christian principles? Absolutely.

BA...I hope you understand what I am saying. I am not trying to take this to where some have. There is no argument here really.

In His arms.