Tom,

The safe haven would have been provided and shown in Plan A.

Plan B would have been the time given for emotional/physical distance so the new boundaries could have been put in place.

When placing your boundaries, as Gimble said your wife MUST know what they are and that they cannot be crossed. You can't expect her to just know either. You must communicate this to her through action and words.

In management training I learned to never set an employee up to fail. Which is what I think KY was referring to. You lied to her basically too. By asking her a question you already had the answer to. She behaved exactly as you expected because you expected her to lie. That is not really very fair.

No one knows if she will change or not, but one thing is for sure - You can never go back to what it was before, just as a mind can never go back to what it was before a new idea entered it.

She will get this eventually, but like the others said, at what cost to you?

I know you are doing this for your children, as you should. I feel for you here because I know you have no control over what or who she allows in your kids life once divorced. This is a very real fear and one that should be considered above all else in my opinion. Atleast until they can take care of themselves and are on their own.

Been thinking about your sitch all night, it is very frustrating.

I am going to guess you will sense some anger and frustration in this post. It is because I think my STBX is capable of so much more than this, but just doesn't get it, maybe thinks it is some sort of game.

Weaver ,

I don't feel like I'm setting her up to fail. I'm not making her lie anymore than I made her have an affair. And her lies aren't just about the affair.

I set her up to tell me the truth. I knew the truth so when she told me it I would know she told me it. Then I could start to build some trust because I KNEW she told me the truth.

She sent me an email last night and said it wasn't fair to ask her to tell me truth. She says it is not fair of me to test her honesty. This is from a woman who lied and cheated on me on more than one occasion and who stole from the family. She wants me to just "forget" that she cut my legs off, ripped my heart out, and stomped on everything I believe in. After all of that she thinks it is unfair that I expect honesty.

You are asking me to just trust her. If I don't know the truth then I have to take her word ... BUT I really don't know if it was the truth, I don't KNOW whether she lied or not.

So I am giving her the opportunity to tell me the truth and HAVE ME KNOW it was the truth.

If I tell her everything I know, then I feel she will believe she can lie to me about the rest because I don't know any better. That makes me insecure because she has shown she is not worthy of any trust.

The only way I can ever trust her is for her to tell me the truth when I actually know it is the truth. That is how she can demonstrate her willingness to be honest and open. She so far has demonstrated that she is willing to continue her lies to me.

My STBX thinks she is lying to me to protect me. I think that is all rationalizing BullCrap. She is lying out of convenience.

I did set up the boundries with her. She knew and lied anyway. This has gone on since before we were married.

I have given her the opportunity to suceed in gaining my trust. She could have told me the truth each and everytime.

If I don't know the truth how am I supposed to know when she is telling it? Am I just supposed to live the rest of my life wondering "is that the truth or a lie?"

STD ,
She is supposed to be in therapy, but isn't. Another peice of BullCrap she has put on my plate.

I am growing and moving on to something better, she is trying to drag me down like an anchor.

She will commit to something and then back out of it at the last minute because she doesn't feel like it. Whether it is accountablility, honesty, dinner, it is all about how she feels at any minute.

Gimble,

I would like more on your perspective and handling of boundries. Could you maybe start a new thread on that subject? I let my own boundries get trampled over by my STBX over the years and it had generated alot of resentment and damaged how I thought of myself. So much that I believed I was a nobody.
I don't want that problem in any future relationships.

<small>[ February 09, 2005, 08:03 AM: Message edited by: Tom Joad ]</small>

Tom:

You're in much the same boat that I was. A while back, WXW was making what I call "half-hearted" attempts at reconciliation and staying within boundaries. She was saying OM was out of picture; but phone records proved otherwise - in a big way. I remained steadfast in keeping within boundaries and the result was ultimately D. Not what I wanted; but I could not/would not continue in M w/o boundaries, NC, etc. Since then; WXW is continuing to see OM, who remains married. 13DD is now in intense counseling and nearing expulsion from excellent private school due to excess absences. WXW and her mother continue saying that DD is "fine"! (That's another story in itself!)

Bottom line: You have decisions to make based on information (and realities) presented to you. I do not believe that fog-bound WS's will ever recover w/o complete NC, total & radical honesty, and complete re-commitment to M. JMHO!

Also; I agree with you that the truth is the truth, regardless of any other circumstances. Telling and/or receiving the truth should not need qualification or sugar-coating of any kind. It simply is true or it's not true! Good Luck!

FR

FR, yes. I don't feel OM is not out of the picture at all. STBX has offered all kinds of things... but they were just offers, have not seen anything. She said she'd let me look at computer, but hasn't. She said she show me her phone records, but hasn't.

She wants my wallet. Its sad. Looking across a table at someone who you've been married to for 15 years ... a person you one time adored ... and feeling nothing but disgust.

.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ February 09, 2005, 09:09 AM: Message edited by: Tom Joad ]</small>

Gotcha Tom!

Didn't mean to sound like a lecture, but I guess I did. Just putting out whatever thoughts were coming to me after thinking about it.

I know what it is like to want for someone to just be honest. And to have to catch them at a lie so you will know if they are still lieing or not. It seems so dang simple and obvious to us. Hoping they will be, but knowing from past experiences that they probably won't.

I'm looking forward to the possibility of Gimble putting a thread out on boundaries too.

It's something I need to work on all the time, because I had none for so long.

Sorry to hear that Tom.

Seems like she is does the easy stuff and not the hard work. That probably even makes you more on edge. All icing, no cake. All smoke no fire. Sound right?

She tells you things because it is easy to say. She has a hard time actually doing them, because it takes work.

This might be hard for you to hear. I don't think she has demonstrated any commitment.

Thanks Weaver. I'm doing the right things, not necessarily the things I want but what I think I should be doing according to Harley. I know <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> I've back slid some too ... I'm carrying alot of pain on my back.

STD (those are kind of funny initials)
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">STD said:
Seems like she is does the easy stuff and not the hard work. That probably even makes you more on edge. All icing, no cake. All smoke no fire. Sound right?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ughh. Isn't that the truth. It does make it even more irritating. She wants to hug and cuddle ... all nice. But it feels so fake, nothing but fluff, nothing but smoke.

I want the real work. I appreciate the hard work. It just seems to me that she wants to gloss over everything.

Kind of like this...

She is responsible for cutting off my legs. But now she is sorry. She wants to forget it all. She wants to go for a walk like the old days. Duh!!! No legs remember!

OK then lets go for a bike ride ... Duh!! Again.

I feel like she is treating me like some spoiled brat throwing a tantrum. Giving me a hug and saying "there there, everything is better now"

Nothing is better for me concerning her. She wants me to somehow forget all the crap that she's done because she gives me a hug.

.

Tom Joad - Your wife sounds like she plays the same game my FWH does. Even though he knows I have proof because I tell him ahead of time that I know the answer, he will still lie. The truth comes out bit by bit sometimes or not at all. It is the outright lies that still hurt so much. I believe he does want to recover and I believe that the OW is out of the picture now, but he still lies. What is it with them? Have they lied for so long that they don't even know how to be honest? Boundaries are good - I just wish I could enforce them. I feel like doing a Plan B, but that doesn't really work when the affair is over does it? Sorry for your pain!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Tom Joad:
<strong> Gimble,

I would like more on your perspective and handling of boundries. Could you maybe start a new thread on that subject? I let my own boundries get trampled over by my STBX over the years and it had generated alot of resentment and damaged how I thought of myself. So much that I believed I was a nobody.
I don't want that problem in any future relationships. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi, Tom.

Sorry for the delayed response, I am under the weather a bit with 'the crud'.

I thought that someone had started a recent thread on boundaries. I will look it up, and start a new one if I can't find it.

All the best,
Gimble