DUPLICATE.

<small>[ February 14, 2005, 02:30 PM: Message edited by: Not.Giving.Up ]</small>

NGU,
Thanks for the response. This needs to be quick and I'll post more later on my sitch if you're interested.

Hope you and H had a good V Day. The W and I did. Had lunch at a hotel that overlooks the Pacific.

No need to apologize for my sitch. Save that empathy for your H. It's important.

Mac

Mac, of course I'm interested. Please when you get time come back here...

V-day was very very enjoyable! We exchanged very cool gifts, I got a mini iPod and I got him some nice Kiehls products, we stayed home and I cooked him his favorite dinner and we watched a DVD.

I'm glad you had a nice time. I would love to overlook the Pacific. Never been that far west before, you're sooo lucky! Although, I get to overlook the Hudson River from where we live (across from Manhattan).

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

NGU,
Now that I have time I'm not sure what I can write to clarify my situation.

Until my discovery of the old tax records with phone records this December I was doing great and had been since late summer.

The calls go back as far as I had old records 1992 and I bluffed her to say our entire marriage and she didn't deny it. As a matter of fact she admitted talking to him when he lost his job at the "ocean park" and was very down. She didn't say it but I know the park closed in 1987!

Over the years, most of the calls have been to his office. I did some checking and there were also calls to his house when he was between wives in 1992. More on this later. The holidays were big for calls as was his birthday. Summer also.

I'd love to believe that they were just friends. I just am so anti same sex friends.

Thinking back I did let her know that I didn't feel comfortable with the relationship. I always thought she had taken my opinion to heart. In realty she decided to keep the continued relationship a secret. You know "what he doesn't know can't hurt him."

Even if my W had never had an A with him this secret correspondence would still have bothered me.

Now back to the time frame of 1992 or sooner. This means that they've had this relationship since before he married his current wife. My initial reaction was to call his wife but I'm not sure I should. Last time I spoke to her early '03 she had made "peace" with his A. Seemed to do it very quickly. Lucky her.

Although as I said there were calls from her at least 2-4 times a year, the more I think about it the contact was the highest during his divorced years. The only time it was only 2 times a year was the year he remarried.

I'm starting to ramble here. Just spouting basic facts with no rhymme or reason.

I guess there are a few possible scenarios that occurred.

1) They really were just good friends who would occassionally keep in touch. She called him alot less than her girlfriends. Now that she's post affair with the same guy she's frustrated that this new info could potentially drag me back to the hell we just recently emerged from. She appears guilty due to the A but is innocent.

2) At the other end of the spectrum is that she has been having an on again off again EA/PA relationship with him since early in our marriage. Maybe they both realized their huge mistake after each of our weddings.

I've asked her if they ever shared that they had feelings for each other back in '86 when they worked together. She claims that she didn't feel that way about him. IN this case she is guilty and is very scared of admitting more truth. I think she (rightfully) fears that I'd call it quits if this scenario was the case.

3)My guess is that the truth probably falls somewhere in the middle. It was a friendship but one that either bordered on or was an EA. We all have friends for different reasons. Opposite sex friends can have the same motivations as same sex friends but there is that added reason. The feeding of the ego caused by the fact that someone else besides your spouse finds you attractive.

Have I left anything out?

During our early marriage we even did a few things with he and his first wife as couples: Rose Parade and a Bruce S. concert. Don't remember why they stopped. Maybe the relationship bothered his ex-wife as much as me.

I do now recall that over the years she did say that he called occassionally. I especially remember my W knowing that he was getting a divorce. At the time I think I thught he was checking in to see if she was available.

I have the dates and times here in timeline form and can see that for example she called him within 45 days of the W and I returning from 10 year anniversary trip to Hawaii. It's timing like that that makes me wonder.

I always thought our marriage was good but maybe this secret relationship has had a bigger negative impact than I know. I was probably getting compared to "Mr Nice Guy" who checks in occassionally. She lived with me 24x7 and knows me warts and all while she just knows the facade of this guy.

I'm sure the number of calls were at a minimum double bc I'm sure he called her as much as she caled him.

Any feedback welcome especially on whether I should call his wife. It would be a major LB for the W.

Do you call male friends on their birthdays? OM doesn't count. lol

Sorry for the essay.

Mac

<small>[ February 16, 2005, 12:58 AM: Message edited by: cwmac ]</small>

bump

Hi NGU and cwmac,

NGU, I just wanted to say I am happy for you that things are going well. Maybe its good that you two are sort of just enjoying life right now, because it can (as you know) get very tough when you are in the throes of recovery. So some breathing space before the next big hurdle. Good for you!

cwmac,
just wanted to ask how you are today.

I don't have much to say about your sitch, because I think you hit the nail on the head with the 3 possibilities. Still the biggest issue seems to be that you can't be certain that she is telling the truth, because of her history of not telling the whole story, right?
This seems to me to be a deeper issue than which of the three possibilities is the correct one. This is really important, right? I mean, that your M is more in jeopardy because you can't trust that she has told the truth than because of anything that she did or didn't do.
I don't know if there is a way to talk about this with your W, so you can both come up with possibilities that would help you believe her. Things like :
-that she take a lie detector (but there are issues there too)
-that you both get together with OM's W (or ex-W)and compare notes (openly)

One thing i noticed is that you said you now remember that she told you once or twice that he called, and that she told you he was getting a divorce at the time. Did you tell her at that time that it made you uncomfortable to hear that they were calling each other?

I don't know how to approach this, other than to start from the premise that she is telling the whole truth, but that you need her to help find ways to prove it to you, because of her history of half-truths and your (understandable) response to her history.

Smur,
You've summed up the essence of my struggle fairly well.

I just gave thos 3 scenarios to get feedback. I realize that I may never really know. It is difficult to accept.

My recollection is that she was always aware that her relationship with him made me feel uncomfortable. I don't ever recall being nasty about it or making demands that she follow my wishes. I'd venture a guess that when he called about the divorce I did ask if shw had ever spoken to him prior and that the answer was know. Unfortunately I'm not exactly sure of were the divorce fits into the timeline. Current wife married him in '94.

She knew how I felt. The bottom line is that the relationship was more important to her than my feelings and so therefore she had a way to make it all work. Carry on the relationship but keep it a secret.

I would love to get in touch with his ex-wife to compare notes. Maybe I'm exageratting but maybe she'd say, "Oh yeah I caught them having an affair and divorced him."

Do you think I should call his current wife with this new info?

As for lie detector test and or meeting with ex-wife. There is no way my wife would do it. It's all about her comfort level. Any thing that is embarrassing or uncomfortable is avoided.

She still hasn't had a talk with the daughter who had asked me in Nov if "Mom had cheated on me."

She expects that trust should have returned by now and just doesn't get or want to get that the new info in December has retested the limits of my capacity to believe everything she has told me in the past.

Mac

<small>[ February 16, 2005, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: cwmac ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It's all about her comfort level. Any thing that is embarrassing or uncomfortable is avoided. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi cwmac,

I really have to go and get some work done, but I just noticed this.

I think this is the crux of the matter, really. I guess the question comes back to you and how long you are willing to go along with her avoiding conflicts and disregarding your feelings.

As I see it, its really not so much the issue of what actually happened and when, but of how you feel about it and how seriously she takes your feelings. I don't think you can argue with her about whether or not 'trust should be restored by now'.
There are no shoulds, and its not the issue anyway.

Hope you're goign better.
all best wishes

Smur,
So as not to continue my theadjack of NGU's thread, I've moved my babbling over to...

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=036828;p=1#000002