NC,
Thanks for answering! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

My intent was NOT to stir up any more bad feelings in you.
If my questions did that, I do apologize.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> From NC Walker:
Don’t worry about NCWalker. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But we can if we WANT TO.....Right!!!

Of Course we're going to worry about you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ( as we would any Friend). You've done a lot of good here.....so we only want you to be healthy and whole as those you've tried to help.


All of us are mournful when a marriage or situation does not have that "happy ending".
Sometimes we all "think" that if we just do it the MBer "way" ....it's Always going to turn out as we want it too.
IT stings to find out this is Not always the case. (Indeed, it makes US worry about our own situations and relationships). It gives that ever present "doubt" a small foothold to worm its way back in. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Again, sooooo sorry that this has happened to you (again!). <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> Very sorry.

NC, I wish you success in making the best decisions today that will shape the rest of your life.
Take Care my man.

<small>[ February 13, 2005, 08:09 AM: Message edited by: top rope ]</small>

NCW, I'm pleased you sound strong.

RH, I'm sorry I have to agree with Top Rope. I know NOW was part of the group but it was not healthy. I gave up posting to the women because no one seemed to be getting anywhere. I was part of a similar group a couple of months before that and the dynamic of our group was to recover and NOT to discuss withdrawal or pining. Thinking about it, I think our group's success rate has been quite high.

I agree that people were very harsh and maybe if the group had been able to stick around it would have turned around with some active help from people here and not constant 2x4s.

RH, you know I'm one of your I-ville friends and I hope you accept this in the spirit of friendship that's it given.

Jen

Hello everyone,

Just wanted to say that in retrospect, I suppose a lot of the FWW's on that thread were having a "pity party" of sorts, myself included <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> but I believe it is part of the process. I do also think it serves a purpose if you can take a step back and really see what you're saying....it's an eye-opener, at least it was for me. The problem is that not everyone can "see" themselves as they really are. Or for some, it takes longer. And in that state (the "fog"), no amount of 2X4's or "calling you out" will be really heard anyway...it will only be seen as another excuse to play the victim, so ideally others need to be really careful how they approach the FWW...KWIM?

Sometimes the problem is in the attitude with which something is brought up to another, and we all KNOW how difficult it is to portray attitude in this forum.....for ALL of us. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

NOW

RH,

Started a thread (in your name) to respond to you (as not to thread jack).
But as there seems to be other responses here, wondering if I shouldn't just post it here and be done with it.

Decisions, decisions.

Top Rope: I see you started another thread for me. For some reason I want to answer it here. (Go figure?)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My intent was NOT to stir up any more bad feelings in you.
If my questions did that, I do apologize. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">TR: They did not, so no apology is necessary. I just wanted to put my, opposing opinion out there. Thats all.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> All of us are mournful when a marriage or situation does not have that "happy ending".
Sometimes we all "think" that if we just do it the MBer "way" ....it's Always going to turn out as we want it too.
IT stings to find out this is Not always the case. (Indeed, it makes US worry about our own situations and relationships). It gives that ever present "doubt" a small foothold to worm its way back in. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with you 100% on this statement.

KiwiJ said:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> people were very harsh and maybe if the group had been able to stick around it would have turned around with some active help from people here and not constant 2x4s. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That was the point of my post. There were several posters that "just got tired of the girls not listening" and started blasting. That is what I was referring to in the "attacks." It did no one any good. Posters such as RAP just left. So what good did the attack do? Are the attackers happier that those lowlifes aren't here? (I don't and didn't consider them lowlifes.) I think if handled with some civility or just not attacking they may have eventually heard something that they needed to hear. That's all. And as someone said before, they just weren't ready to hear the tough stuff. It's sad. Looking back those people probably didn't feel like they were attacking.

Pep said: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Anti-marriage pro-affair discussions should be interrupted in my opinion. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And I don't have a problem with this. It was just how some did it.

TR: Thanks for your discussion.

RH

Hello ncw,

I just wanted to say that I too am sorry that you are hurting.When your WW was first posting here,and thereafter,I was at first trying to help and understand but then I was a bit "harsh" with her.But like pep said,she was not healthy or making healthy choices.We could hear this in her posts.When I feel that there is no real attempt to heal from the A,I stop posting to WS's.I get upset at their behavior and I don't feel I am able to suggest/or advise anymore.

Anyway,I also wanted to reiterate that you are NOT worthless.**REMEMBER,your WW is the one with the problem here.It's heartbreaking that she is doing this to you and your family but she is SICK.This is about her,her poor choices and behavior.

Now is the time to focus on those boys and take care of you.Those are the priorities.I will tell you that I am a much stronger,healthier person,even being alone now almost divorced,than when I was with my WH enduring his selfish and painful behavior.YOU WILL BE OK NO MATTER WHAT.

O

<small>[ February 12, 2005, 06:33 PM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]</small>

Hi all. Thanks for the kind words.

I am not really taking the time to quote anyone from above, but would like to throw in a few things.

About the WS being worthless. No. They are not. They have as much value as the rest of us. Our value is intrinsic and it is great. Our value cannot and does not change. There are two ounces of gold. One buried deep and never to be discovered, the other fashioned into a beautiful ring. Is the value different? On the gold market, an ounce is an ounce is an ounce. One brings joy as it is fashioned into a ring. That is the choices we make. Shine like the ring, or be ugly like the ore. That defines the impact we have on others. But our value is precious because of the price paid for it and it is truly the same for all.

RAP is/was a big part of my life. Mother of my children. Best friend. She chose to be like the ore and not the ring to me. She is still valuable, but has become a source of pain. And like the ore, my best course is to try bury the memories of the pain. A tall order. But I know what to do. I want her to be happy. I think she is throwing away probably her greatest chance at happiness. But that is her choice, just as it has become mine to not take it anymore. I once posted on here that Satan will give us something good to keep us from the best. (From my pastor). I think that is happening here. The shame of it is when she realizes this it will be too late. The ore will have been buried.

On worrying about me ... I really do appreciate your concern. But truly, my joy comes from within and I try to share it. That has not changed due to my marital status. I'll just have to find someone who truly sees it as a precious gift to be cherished and not sappy, faux-noble gesture to be taken advantage of. And if I don't, that's fine too. My sons are learning from me. My mark on the world through them will be good. All three are truly becoming fine men - and RAP had a part in that, too. That's all I can ask for. I am one man who churned out three good men. So the good guys are gaining in numbers in small part due to me. That's what matters. The rest is gravy.

Heck. Maybe God's purpose for my marriage was for me to show RAP what unconditional love looks like. Believe me, I didn't. But I'd like to think I got close. At least sometimes. If sometime down the road, that saves her soul then that has to be worth it. Remember the value thing above? I can draw a lot of strength from that alone. At the end of the day, what did I really suffer for being a light? Some embarassment? Some betrayal? Some pain in my heart? There are people in the world today being killed for standing firm in what they believe. Looking at it from that viewpoint, I consider myself lucky.

It IS all about choices. I'll do OK because I will choose to find the joy in my circumstances instead of letting the dark horses of pain and sorrow overtake me. Now if I can just remember what I wrote during the low times.

As far as thinking that doing things the MB way will result in success. Never thought that. I have said this over and over. I am a "servant's heart" kind of a guy. MB principles fall in line with that. I think Harley's four rules are excellent. But it won't MAKE RAP love me. She has to be interested in recieving and giving in return. Of late, she has just been interested in herself. Her choice to make. Always was. But at this point, NCWalker CAN look at himself in the mirror and say "I did everything asked of me." That has value. There will be no "If only I had..." That is real closure. Closure can never come from another. You never REALLY know another. Closure is not knowing what the other person thinks, or does. Closure comes from being satisfied in what you have done. For if you are satisfied you have done your best, what matters the rest?

NCWalker

NCW--

I am so very sorry to hear this. My heart just sunk when I read your post. YOu and RAP have been on my mind lately but I was hoping you would post good news.

You and your family will be in my prayers. I wish I could offer some more comforting words but I can't.

God bless you...

Carol

ncw,

I read your post this morning and have thought and prayed about it throughout the day.

You once told me that you didn't envy my situation and, sadly, now I don't envy yours.

I remain amazed by your poise, thought and clarity through these hard times. I will continue to pray for you, rap and your boys.

Robert

Carol and Robbie,

Thanks for the sentiments.

Robbie,

Poise has not really been part of the equation. When I post, I am calm and thinking. I rarely post angry. I did not have a lot of poise when I threw all of RAP's stuff out on the front lawn Friday night. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

But when I write it. How I feel I mean. I am trying to train myself. How you react to something is a choice. If you just "let it flow" it will usually be anger in situations such as ours. It doesn't have to be that way. We can CHOOSE the graceful path (which comes from God). The easy path tends to come from the other guy and leads to violence, or substance abuse, or worse.

I didn't choose the graceful path Friday night. I had a good friend come over, he calmed me down. Since then I let RAP back in the house. They are her kids too and it is her house as well, regardless how WE feel about each other.

NCW

There is one other thing I would like to add. I have been praying very strongly that God would open and close the appropriate doors in my life. Meaning light the ways he wants me to go, and block the ways he does not.

APPROPRIATE doors.

Not the FUN TO WALK THROUGH doors.

Be aware of what you pray for. Be observant so you don't miss it when it is answered.

There is probably someone out there capable of blessing me as a spouse in a way meaningful to me. So in truth, I am excited about this new start in my life. Yes I will miss RAP. And I feel horrible for what she and I have chosen for our boys. But yeah, I will be OK. The man I see in the mirror is smiling for he has done his best.

NCW

ncw,

I didn't mean to suggest you showed poise Friday night or to other reactions to have had to rap's actions. I don't see those. I only read your accounts of them here.

But here you seem to be remarkably intact for a man who is going through horrible circumstances.

I have thought about you and rap often. Asked others who are in contact with you to pass on my well wishes. I hope you received them.

I know exactly what you mean about being observant when you pray. I'm working on it. Praying for His will is something I haven't done consistently.

Your "Concert Hall" analogy has stuck with me and I've even used it myself with others. I've given proper credit to "a guy I met online who is much smarter than me." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

{{{{{NCWalker}}}} no much more can be said. I did try reaching RAP a few times, no luck. i feel for her because i believe as pep says, she is very lost and very far from home. i wish i could of been help to her. please take care of those boys. i hope i did not sound too harsh the other night. i trust you understand why i said what i said, it was all based on my life experience, that's all. although you and RAP will no longer be together, they need to be free to choose to love you both without fear of hurting either of you. a very tall order for you considering the situation RAP has put you in, but, still reality, IMHO.

love to you,

Karen

I was wondering (perhaps you already made this point and I missed it) ... Do you know if current OM is married?

Reason I ask....

If he's married (or even in a long-term relationsahip), it is highly UNlikely he will quit his relationship to be with your wife full time. RAP comes with baggage that most men do not wish to carry FOR HER ... they simply want to enjoy her pleasures sans attachments.

She's headed for a fall, a BIG one <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I worry for RAP's mental health. She will likely get DUMPED eventually ... and next time, there will be no husband to help scrape her up off the floor.... I worry for the girl.

Does she have parents she can turn to when the time comes?

Pep

Nevermind.... I just REread ... OM is divorced because "his wife cheated on him" .... I am sure that's what he told RAP ... and the facts are probably very different. >sigh< poor girl.... such a sad road she's on ....

<small>[ February 13, 2005, 10:11 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Bleah. The demons are after me today. Here are my favorite three...

Demon #1: I am worthless.
How could I be of value? How could I be attractive? How could I be a good H? If I was, she would not have left.

Demon #2:I failed.
I mean I tried, but could not save my marriage. So I did something wrong, otherwise it would have worked and we all would be happy. I have never in my life not succeeded at something I put my effort in to. I could not have tried my best, or this would have worked.

Demon #3:I wasted my life.
All this Christian stuff about serving was a waste. I feel like I SERVED AND SERVED my marriage, maybe not doing everything right, but CLEARLY having my heart where it belonged. With her. And what did I get in return? ENs infrequently met and a couple of As. Why did I bother for so long? It was a waste and my prime of my life was wasted, never to be reclaimed.

Demons. Don't ya just LOVE 'em?

She still lives with me and the boys. I can't feel anything for her anymore. Or I should say I am not letting myself, because I am so afraid of being hurt now.

I can barely bring myself to talk or make eye-contact. I can't take a first step again. I can't connect the dots in my mind - how did she get from "A" all the way to "Z"? It just doesn't make sense and it is bugging me. She can't answer it either.

I gave her a hug today. First time I have even touched her in a month. I told her she would always have a place in my heart. She said I would always have the biggest place in hers. Not the only place. The biggest place. It just hurts and it doesn't make sense.

Bleah. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

NCWalker

(double - even the PC ain't workin' for me today)

<small>[ March 01, 2005, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: ncwalker ]</small>

Hello to one of my fav posters!!!!

(((squidges to NCW))) b/c you need squidges.

Blah and paugh!!!!!! Stand up, m'dear. You are a child of God and these demons have no place thrusting their dirty fingers in your head and playing with your grey matter!!!!!!!!

To Demon #1 I say, "Begone. He is not yours nor does he belong to your master! He has been washed clean by the blood of the One whom he serves! He is worthy and loved. He IS lovable. The sins of others in his life are not his, nor do they reflect upon him!"

To Demons #2 and #3 I say, "Begone. He is not yours nor does he belong to your master! He has been washed clean by the blood of the One whom he serves! His serving will never be a waste. He does what he can with what he's given. His lessons learned weren't a waste....they give him his wisdom and further knowledge which he has shared with others. Your kind thrives on the ignorance of time truly wasted. Go back to your darkness. The light of truth and knowledge of self and others belongs to this man. They will make him stronger tomorrow, no matter the doubts you try to instill today."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She can't answer it either.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Won't is more like it. You think your 3 demons are bad??? Hers hold mirrors all around her and the person she sees horrifies her, I'm certain.

That what she is looking for in others can only be found in herself. You cannot help or save her. You can only choose whether or not you have it in yourself to help her glue herself back together when she shatters.

Her failings are not YOURS NCW. Do not attempt to feed us that pabulum and expect us not to spit it out at you.

Not once have I ever seen you NOT ADMIT to your inequities. You've acknowledged them, and owned them. You ARE NOT ALLOWED TO MAKE RAP'S FAILINGS AS YOUR OWN. Sorry sir. That sh*t don't float.

I'm not gonna tell you to pick yourself up, buddy-boy and grin and bear it. It's WAY too soon for that. You are allowed YOUR pain. YOURS, and as much of your babies as you can take on and bear. But RAP's is her own. Sure it may hurt you to watch...but her inadequacies are hers, not yours.

(((more squidges)))

- Kimmy

NC,
What you’re experiencing now is probably the most difficult kind of dilemma any of us will ever face. How to solve a problem that has no solution? How to make sense out that which is nonsense? How to understand and give meaning to that which has no meaning? Part of that problem however, is you but not in the way you are thinking it is. The problem as it pertains to you has to do with you being just to damn bright and sensitive.

A lesser person would simply shout a few nasty invectives related to POTs personal proclivity for doing the unacceptable and follow through with a few more adjectives of the less desirable nature and then walk away in righteous indignation, giving the matter no further thought. You on the other hand are cursed with the attributes of understanding, sensitivity and of course conscience. And so when confronted with a situation that is so surrealistic in terms of what all of us are taught to expect in real life, your first reaction is to wonder what it was that you did to cause this to happen? And the answer to this question is of course nothing!

Good husband, bad husband cruel and abusive husband no matter how you want to characterize yourself, this problem is still never going to be about you or any other man that your wife eventually hooks herself up with. This problem is about her and until she solves it, it’s she that will live in torment, continuing to experience a life fraught with unrest and uncertainty. You have done all you can do but you can’t live her life for her. You cannot bestow upon her peace, contentment or happiness. All of these things we each must seek and find on our own.

Sorry NC, at this point your job is not longer to seek solutions. Your job isn’t even to understand. At this point your job is to simply to accept.

Best regards,
Coach

NcW, remember, this is Rap's demon, not yours. Hold her accountable, these are her bad choices, she has failed you.

Until she works on herself this will not be a mistake of the past, it will be her way of life.

My H has tried hard to claim responsibility for my actions, you just can't do that.

You are worthy, you are made in God's image, that alone gives you worth.

I could disrespect your feelings and tell you how foolish it is for you to think of yourself as not attractive, I have seen your picture, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> but I won't, I will just pray for you to come to a better place.

(((((NCW)))))

love KY

adding my cyber support here too. i ditto what everyone else has said. i have been keeping you all in my prayers.