Caren -

This sounds awfully similar to my failed plan B... do you remember the advice you gave me? Let me quote....
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">posted 02-11-2005 05:00 PM
TM-

I luv ya hon..........but you're diggin a hole for yourself here....you seriously are.

Go back to plan B QUICK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You think you're doing the right thing, but you're ruining any chance you had to reconcile.....please don't do this.

-Caren
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hope this helps...

TM

I know this w/b counter to a lot of other posters. Plan B is for Caren's sake not the WS. If Caren needed to firm up those guidelines and this time she had his attention, then to enforce a staunch plan B with no contact, would do no more than be an irritant and make the BS wonder 'what if'.

Ok now Caren, broke contact and emphasized her boundaries. No more question right? Several BS' have done that and gone back to plan B. It did not always have a negative effect.

Look at how Caren is now. She appears more reassured that the WS does understand and if not, she even put a time limit and plan in place. Of course she will eat crow if the WS stays as the WS by the next deadline and she has to file to keep her word. But that is the risk she choose to take.

Did this action allow Caren to keep her love from losing more ground? Only she can answer that. That w/b the deciding factor as to whether her recent actions were for her benefit or not.

Remember who plan B is suppose to benefit. Not the WS, not even the Xws. The primary benefitor is the BS and family. Then maybe if the fog clears a little the WS or Xws. That's not guaranteed though and no one should count on it moving the WS or Xws to action. Instead we should watch how the BS is doing.

JMHO,
L.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Orchid:
<strong> I know this w/b counter to a lot of other posters. Plan B is for Caren's sake not the WS. If Caren needed to firm up those guidelines and this time she had his attention, then to enforce a staunch plan B with no contact, would do no more than be an irritant and make the BS wonder 'what if'.

Ok now Caren, broke contact and emphasized her boundaries. No more question right? Several BS' have done that and gone back to plan B. It did not always have a negative effect.

Look at how Caren is now. She appears more reassured that the WS does understand and if not, she even put a time limit and plan in place. Of course she will eat crow if the WS stays as the WS by the next deadline and she has to file to keep her word. But that is the risk she choose to take.

Did this action allow Caren to keep her love from losing more ground? Only she can answer that. That w/b the deciding factor as to whether her recent actions were for her benefit or not.

Remember who plan B is suppose to benefit. Not the WS, not even the Xws. The primary benefitor is the BS and family. Then maybe if the fog clears a little the WS or Xws. That's not guaranteed though and no one should count on it moving the WS or Xws to action. Instead we should watch how the BS is doing.

JMHO,
L. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree, O. She's doing fine. I trust Caren....

Okay, I'm not fine.

I wasn't posting because I was freaking exhausted, and I know your right. I think I did break through the *fog* momentarily....and contrary to the posts that said not too, I did have SF with him last night, I went to his house. Sat my purse down on the counter, and there was a nail clipper set in a basket on his kitchen counter with a little paper heart inside that said "I want you to play with me" I saw it when I set my purse down, I walked away to talk to the bird and when I walked back, he'd flipped it over. I walked back to pick up the bottle of pop I sat down, saw that he flipped it over so I wouldn't see it, and I picked it up, took the heart out and ripped it into pieces and threw it on the floor. I picked up the paper and threw it in the trash. Then I walked into the living room and sat down. He removed the only picture of me that was in the picture frame.....he could've just flipped it, but he removed the whole thing...the picture on the other side was of his twins or something. I said "You took my picture OUT?" I said "You could have just flipped it, or just left the other picture in there (so it's an empty piece of glass right now), he said "Oh, I couldn't get the pictures apart, I put it in my photo album. I can only assume OW was there and probably would want to "SEE" the pictures up close, and she would've seen the pic of me. He was sorta sitting on the very edge of the couch...I said "Am I making you uncomfortable?" He said "Well, you're picking my house apart." I said "No, I'm not, just the things that have to do with Shannon...and I'm allowed to do that."

And what did I do? I still had SF...I felt desperate, and afterwards I feel asleep in his bed, he held me the whole time, I was only asleep about an hour and a 1/2 but during this time I had a dream I couldn't breathe, I was trying and trying to wake WH up, and I couldn't make a sound. Then I had some other stupid dream about him having to go outside to catch alligators in the back yard or something...but even that dream left me with the same feeling as the one where I couldn't breathe....I felt like I was abandoned, like everything else was more important to me. It hit me like a fricken ton of bricks when I woke up. I said "I gotta go" I got up and went to the bathroom, got my clothes on, I was shaking, I got my coat/shoes on grabbed my purse, he came out of the bedroom and said "Call me when you get home, so I can make sure you made it okay" I said "OK" he walked towards the door and he said "Are you okay?" I said "I just had some bad dreams." He said "Hey....are you alright?!" And he hugged me. I said "I'm fine, I have to go" So I left, I'm crying all the way home, I get home call him,"Okay I'm home" He said "What were your bad dreams about?" I told him about the not being able to breathe one" He said "Why didn't you wake me up?" I said "I didn't wake up" I'm still crying, and he said "It's okay honey" I said "I can't help feeling that you were uncomfortable with me being there" He said "Why? I held you in my arms the whole time" I said "I dunno" He said "You'll be okay honey, go get some sleep" I said "Okay, bye" and hung up the phone.

In my huge rush to get the hell out of there, I left my necklace...I wear it everyday...I want it back!!! He gave it to me, it's a heart with emerald cut diamonds in it, and I never wore it when we were together, but for some reason now, I feel like I have to wear it everyday. So I am calling him this morning, telling him to take it to work with him, and I am going over there with the copy of the Plan B letter, and I'm going to try to remain as composed as possible and tell him that I've gotta go back to B.....I just took a ride on the damn roller coaster again, and I can't do it. I'm going to talk to him about the kids and talking through them, and I'm going to ask him not to call me anymore until he is ready to do the things on the list. I realized last night, by a few things he did/said....he took a picture of Brooklyn we got from the school to put on his fridge at home, he told me that he's getting his washer and dryer in a few days......if he was seriously considering all of this...why all this independent thinking?!?!?!?! He's still thinking like "Hey I'm a single guy furnishing my bachelor pad...." This isn't going to work.

Okay, so I know he loves me, I know it hurt him when I was in Plan B, and I know I totally f-ed it up. I'm not sorry I had the talk with him, I am sorry that I told him I'd talk to him during the *week* I gave him. I am going to tell him, to disregard that time frame, I'm going back to Plan B......I'm doing it because he doesn't have any idea the hit my love took seeing that stupid note, or seeing that my picture was GONE.

I'm going back to Plan B. I just hope I don't break down into a blubbering mess when I do it.

I'm not going back to Plan B because of anything he did, I am going to Plan B because I feel like I'm falling apart, I can't go back to feeling this way again.

He's going to know I'm serious this time. I WON'T SHARE HIM, not even for this week.

-Caren

Caren,

I've been reading your posts and just wanted you to know that you are amazing. I'm praying for you. Keep working on you!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm going back to Plan B. I just hope I don't break down into a blubbering mess when I do it.

I'm not going back to Plan B because of anything he did, I am going to Plan B because I feel like I'm falling apart, I can't go back to feeling this way again.

He's going to know I'm serious this time. I WON'T SHARE HIM, not even for this week.


YEA, CAREN!!!!!

BACK ON THE SADDLE!!!

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think it will be long in PLAN B. We'll be here routing for you.

Caren -

Since you and I are in somewhat similar circumstances, I can say with confidence that a strong Plan B is the ONLY place you're going to find any peace right now.

You're doing great.

Georgia

Caren..

please please please...go to plan B when you...and I mean YOU have all of your duckies lined up....

all of them.....

I am concerned that your daughter will once again experience the brunt of phone calls...

things you need prior to going to plan b..

a answering machine that works the way you need it to...

mortarmans use of special ring tone when it was his number...

is there a way you can agree to contact about children via email but immediately BOUNCE all emails to your sister so that you don't read any of them...and she relays only the pertinent childrens issues.....

look at what didn't work and work on your end to fix and control what you can....

ARK

I agree with Ark about developing your BATTLE STRATEGY this time!!!

Detached is when you make the move from... the feeling of losing your WS, to the feeling that your WS is losing YOU...............he is losing me, the way I felt last night, and am still feeling today, he is losing me............I have to stop this hemmorage of my love bank.

-Caren

He doesn't have e-mail, Mortarman's special ring thing, was another phone...I don't have the cash for that...I have exactly 300.00....250 of which I have to apply to my rent that is still unpaid for February.

I am going to ask him today when I re-impliment to please not involve our daughter in relaying messages, it's messing her up.

I really don't think I've irrepairably damaged my chances, I think I still have a major advantage over OW, but I can't be in this chaos, the few brief days I was out were empowering, and now I feel like I did months ago, I feel out of control....I WILL NOT ALLOW MYSELF TO FEEL THIS WAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am going to have to use the same stupid answering machine also, because my finances don't afford a different one. And my sister as a intermediary is a joke. I'm gonna be flying solo here.........I have no choice.

I won't be baited into talking to him again though. I will just hang the phone up. When he leaves a message stating that he has met all my conditions, then I'll call, set up a meeting, ask for proof.

I just called him, and said "Can you please bring my necklace to work with you?" He said "I'll just drop it by on the way to work" I said "No, can't you just bring it to work?" He said "Why? What's wrong?" I said "Nothing, that's fine, just drop it by." I'll just have to do it here I guess. Which should be in about a 1/2 an hour.

-Caren

Caren,

I'm sending out hugs to you. What we have experienced is a major trauma. I really identify with you. I continue to have nightmares even though I am recovered in my marriage. The value of PLAN B is your ability to remove yourself from the scene of the crime so that you no longer have to experience it. You will hurt for awhile now, wounded after being there. It must have been awful to be in a place where you know that she has been. I remember when I made a visit to my FWH's condo. Folks here warned me about going but I just had to go. I had to go to the HOLOCAUST to convince myself that such a TRAGEDY had actually occurred.

You will grieve and hurt for awile. But maybe this will give you the strength to do what you need to do for yourself. I hear that it has. I hear that you are telling yourself that you deserve more than this. I love hearing you say that you do not plan to share your husband even one minure or one second.

Maybe think of some self-affirming statements that you can repeat to yourself. I also found passages from PSALMS to be comforting such as THE LORD WILL NOT LEAVE YOU OR FORSAKE YOU......

You can also take this time to get busy with your game plan, your battle strategy. Convince yourself that you will be victorious over the EVIL ONE!!!!

Folks may have thought that I was being hard on you. I am for you. I know how I had to really FIGHT THE DEMONS or it would have gotten the best of me. I could not be complacent. I had to keep fighting in order to not give up.

YOU ARE ON THE BATTLEFIELD and you will be victorious with or without him.

<small>[ February 18, 2005, 08:05 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

I'm officially in hell right now, and I've got to pull myself out. He's going to be FURIOUS that I'm retracting my previous offer and going back to the thing he dreads the most....NC with me.

I'll post as soon as he leaves.

-Caren

can you trade answering machines with your sister or mother or brother or neighbor or neighbor or friend....

what steps are you taking to avoid what you just experienced...

ARK

Caren,

Settle down for a minute will ya?

First off, you havent blown things. Something you said here... </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not going back to Plan B because of anything he did, I am going to Plan B because I feel like I'm falling apart, I can't go back to feeling this way again.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid was right in what she wrote. Plan B is for YOU. And most of us, including me, had to restart Plan B several times before gettign it right. So, I have not jumped all over you because of that. If you read back at my posts, I jumped on you because you threatened divorce. Please, NEVER use that word again unless you mean it and are going to follow through with it...that you really want the end of your marriage! Okay?

As Ark said, you must have a battle plan now. That phone line I had was really one phoneline. It was a package deal from Verizon that offered me the phone service I had, with a second number that would be a distinctive ring. That way when someone called that number, the phones in the house would double-ring instead of single ring. And the phone service didnt cost me anymore than I was already paying for.

Another thing...what did I tell you in my last post to you? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And then go back to Plan B and stay there. You see, the odds are he will disappoint you in a week. He will ask for more time, or see her behind your back...or call your bluff! Or what he thinks is a bluff. And when he does one of these next week, where will you be? Worse off than you were before. A huge amount of your love for him will fly out of you, as he continues to chose her EVEN when you put the marriage on the line. This is why you dont threaten, dont make ultimatums. Because if he does indeed call your bluff, then you will be worse off emotionally.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you see now? I predicted how you would feel. The reason Plan B is for you is that it protects YOU!! You found that out last night didnt you?

I agree that there are changes in your husband. He does want you and want this. But both of you need the clean break and new start offered by the PBL. He needs to make this decision for himself first, just as you need to be protected first.

So, go to Plan B again. He may be angry, but he will understand eventually. As Mimi said, I doubt this will be one of our longer Plan Bs.

In His arms.

Mortar-

He just left. He handed me my necklace, I said thank you. I gave him his wedding ring (I've been keeping it for the last 6 months)He said "What's this?" I said "You don't know what that is?" He said "It's my wedding ring, why are you giving it to me now? I said "Mark, last night kicked my @ss, you're protecting her from having to see me by removing my picture, but you didn't protect me from seeing her little love note." I said "You are still thinking like a single guy, you are planning to get your washer and dryer, you are planning to get another car and put the Daytona in the garage until spring and sell it.....if you put the Daytona in the garage (The daytona is a piece of junk and won't go out of 2nd gear, he's getting another cheap car from his Mom's boyfriends carlot), where's the hotrod gonna be?" (It's currently in her garage)

I said "My love for you took a serious hit last night, and I can't do this....I should have never given you that deadline, I shouldn't have, it was an ultimatum, and I can't force you to be with me, you have to choose to be with me, I apologize for ever saying that" "I was also wrong in continuing to talk to you and see you while you make your decision. Do you still have the letter?" He said "Yeah, why?" I said "Because I have another one right here" He said "I still have it Caren, and I'm still going to call you if it's about Brooklyn" I said "None of your calls have ever been about Brooklyn" I said "I am requesting that you not pass messages on to me through Brooklyn either, you're hurting her" I said "I love you Mark, but I can't do this" He said "Caren, you know I love you" I said "See?! You can't even say it, you can't just say "I love you to me." He said "I came all the way back to the door the other night to say it" I said "Yes, you did, but you couldn't tell me you loved me last night, and you can't just say I love you now." This has to be your decision, and when you have met all the conditions of the letter, I'll talk to you." He said "I'll talk to you later." I said "No....you won't."

I said "Tommorrow night when you pick up Brooklyn, I'll send her out to the car, and when you bring her back, you send her to the door."

I said "I love you, Goodbye"

And then he left.

*sigh*

-Caren

<small>[ February 18, 2005, 09:00 AM: Message edited by: CarenMc ]</small>

Caren:

Although you must be dying inside, you handled this WONDERFULLY!!!

You are a smart, insightful woman. It will be a major loss for him to lose you.

Yeah, it sure feels like I'm dying. And the really stupid thing is it's a self inflicted wound....."Hey Caren, I have a fantastic idea, why don't you take this wonderful plan to get your marriage on track, and then forge it into a sword and impale yourself with it."

I'm sure he doesn't think I'm serious, that he can crack me again.....but knowing what this feels like, I can't let it happen....I can't! You guys can't let me do this again.....I know you tried to stop me, and the MB board crashing at a pivotal time left me to my own devices....But I can't let this happen again....I have to do it right this time.

I understand 100% why you have been saying it's for me...that plan B is for me.....because I felt like I'd accomplished something, I felt strong, and then I did my true to form "Caren Tailspin".

I'm such an idiot.

As I said before, I'm not sorry I had the "conversation" with him, I just should have immediately re-implimented Plan B after.

I feel like such a moron!!! I'm bawling my stupid eyes out.

And my kids are going to be like "Oh, are we back to not answering the phone for him again?" They're so confused.

-Caren

Caren,

Hang in there and get yourself strong. From what you describe I think he's going to crumble like a stack of cards. Its just a matter of time. Then you'll need to be strong to start on the real work.

Cheers,

Miker

Time to have a serious talk with the kids and reassure them that you WANT to stay M. And the reason for NC with daddy. Talk to them about the lovebank...or you can talk about the Love Gumball Machine and when you and daddy first met he filled your gumball machine and you filled his. But there are some things going on (do they know fo the OW?) that have taken nearly all your gumablls you have left. Explain you want to save the M, but whe you are hurt the gumballs leave, and you need gumballs or else you will give up on the M. You still have gumballs left and want to keep them for the day that daddy really WANTS to come home and until then you can't talk with him or hear anything about him, or else it takes away the few gumballs you have left.

Hope that helps.

Other rules with kids...

NEVER, EVER say anything bad about daddy to them...remember, they have half his genes and when you insult dad you are insulting them too.

Explain this is NOT their fault, this is between the two of you, it has nothing to do with how good or bad they are. Assure them that daddy still loves them but he is confused right now and won't act like himself for awhile. That you will give him time, and ask the girls to give him time too...

Ask the girls not to realy messages...not their job.

And ask them if daddy starts to talk about you or ask questions to ask him to stop. Tell them to tell him, "We love you daddy, and it hurts to be in the middle, please no more talk about mommy."

Cry, it is cleansing.