I am starting a new topic in hopes to get help some help with ideas on negotiating NC.

My other thread gives my complete background so far. Legato has been a great support and given me really good advice so far. He has kept my head on straight....
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=036450;p=1

But in short. DDay was six weeks ago. WW said she would break off contact with OM but has not yet. OM is not M. I just found out that last night she met OM at his apartment. She works at the same place as OM too. I am in Plan A. I have not exposed yet and have very mixed feelings about exposing at this point. I feel I have to try harder at negotiating NC with her before exposing. I am not good with words and have thought it might be better to do it in a letter than verbal with her. What are some thoughts on that?

WW has said the only reason she is at home yet is because of our 2 children ages 4 & 6. She leaves often not accounting for her time gone and very impromptu.

So what are some success stories in negotiating NC?

Any advice/stories are appreciated.

options

Options,

NC is nonnegotiable. POJA does not apply to ending the A or NC. There can be no recovery until these two events have occurred.

So..WW has committed to end the A..but has taken no action to do so.

Time to expose.

Do a search here on exposure..you will find that your hesitation is entirely common..sadly so as it is your BEST direct method of bringing about the death of the A.

When WW commits to NC and ends her A..then you begin to negotiate.

Noodle

noodle

Thanks for the post. I am very hesitant about exposing. I guess I need to read more on that before I do anything. I have no idea how to go about that. Do you or anybody here have any links to exposure or how to expose? Is that how most people get WW to commit to NC?

options

Options,

I understand completely ..of course exposing will make WW very angry..not a good time for anyone..

However..your attitude here concerns me..you don't get her to commit to NC by any method..she either does it or she doesn't..this is not something that you have the ability to control..perhaps affect..but not control.

Unfortunately I am nearly computor illiterate..and so do not know how to "link"..but if you go to search and type in exposure and such..I know there are several GREAT threads that can help you. Try WAT also as I think he started one of the best.

Noodle

Options,
You're thread brings up an interesting point. That is to say so many of us pick and choose the MB advice that we implement. It's like we are ordering a la carte off a menu.

"Hmm, NC sounds good. I'll take that, but the expossure is a little overrated so I'll pass on that for now. Maybe I'll have it later for desert."

It really doesn't work that way IMHO. I think all of the concepts form one large road map. Geez now I'm mixing my metaphors. You gotta pick which road you are going to travel. Sure you may swerve a bit occassionally but your still on the same raod.

Anyway, if you don't have a plan and want to accept the MB plan then do it. Exposure by the way typically comes before NC. Exposure's purpose is to end the affair. NC insures that it doesn't start again or continue.

OK Now for an exposure plan. Who would be on the list? Respond and we'll assist in putting together an exposure plan.

BTW, don't worry I was the exact same way. I followed some precepts and not others. Learmn from those that travelled before you. Hang in there.

Mac

<small>[ February 16, 2005, 04:36 PM: Message edited by: cwmac ]</small>

ok, I understand what you are saying. It just seems risky to me.

On the list would be WW's family including; mother, step father, and brother. My family including; mom, dad and step mom, my two brothers and their wives. The we have her our friends, her friends, and my friends. Church pastor, neighbors, her work, my work. The OM is single so now wifey there to expose to.

When you say risky...

What does that mean exactly..see the thing is..you really have nothing to lose..she has already left the marriage..

Exposure is a time tested method..read Bob Pures thread..and do the search..everyone resists it..but it truly is the best odds move.

Noodle

ok, it might be a best odds move... But I am in Plan A trying not to do any love busting. I guess I don't see how exposure fits in Plan A because it would be a major LB.

You are right though, she has already left the marriage. She is majorly depressed tonight. Just laying down in the dark. She doesn't talk and I don't ask her anymore. I feel when she is ready to talk R then I will be here.

options

Exposure is a HUGE part of plan A.

How familiar are you with the plan?

LBs are very specific..not anything that makes her angry or upset..and yes she will be both..

Truth though? Until this A dies..your marriage doesn't have a chance..Exposure is the surest wound you can inflict to the A..so while it WILL damage ger feelings toward you..it moves the train down the tr5ack in the direction that is favorable to your marital success whether she is angry or not.

Noodle

Options....
Please listen to the Vets here thus far. Exposure is critical and can be painful for all concerned but hopefully it can be fatal for the affair. Failure to expose may in fact nurture the A. You seem hesitant to do this but at the moment it is your most potent resource.

My experience of exposing did trigger some backlash initially because my WW denied the A when confronted by family and friends and tried to make me look like an as*hole. I simply stood by the truth, was consistent with my version of the situation, and was careful to NOT degrade my WW. I did not go to family and friends and say "My W is whoring around on me, and making a slut of herself" or anything similar. I said in effect "My W is having an inappropriate relationship with OM and this is causing major problems for our marriage and family.....please consider this if you detect any changes in my behavior" When they asked for details I provided them, if they didn't ask, I didn't tell. Some of the things you may have to expose may be humiliating for you but do it. I have maintained the love, support and friendship of family and friends on both sides as well as support from the church community which is important to both of us. Family, friends, and church continue to love my WW but let her know that they cannot condone nor embrace her behavior.

If you choose not to expose, and your situation deteriorates into separation your WW will probably end up "exposing" you as someone evil and coniving who made her life so unbearable that she just had to leave and the OM had nothing to do with her choice to leave.

Strike first, and strike hard with exposure.

Options,
You need to expose. If you don't you'll turn your wife into a "cake eater" or "fence sitter". She'll get the best of both worlds. You'll be in Plan A behavior mode and meeting some of her needs and OM will be meeting some as well. Why should she leave the fence?

Go back and read Harley's Plan A. Exposure is part of it. LB's have nothing to do with exposure. Yes she'll be upset but she's in the "fog."

Exposure should be made to end the affair. The A should be exposed to everyone who could possibly influence your W. To me that means her family and closest friends. To me it doesn't mean posting flyers in the neighborhood with her photo and captioned "local 'ho'" That type of exposure is an LB. It's purpose is for revenge or retribution.

I have a compromise for you if you want to take "baby steps" Start exposing to the inner circle of her family first. If it doesn't end the affair move to the next circle close friends.

Does the OM have parents that can be told? Girlfriend?

If this a co-worker affair then it may be appropriate to expose to the employer especially if there is a possible sexual harrassment angle.

I hope you listen to those of us that have already been where you are going.

Mac

Options

I cannot comment as to how successful exposure can be when the OP is single.

But my exposing to OM GF ( twice: once with words, and again with proof) was the single nuke that crushed the sustainability of Squids affair.

OM and Squid were embarrassed, angry, their 'love story' was a bunch of sordid f'ks and stolen lunches' after all.

After my 'words' exposure both OM and Squid denied any relationship to OM GF and she was so distraught she wavered in accepting that a PA took place.

When I sent proof, she threw most of the kitchen at OM and he went dark. Squid phoned him once after a month (when we were starting to relate better) and he dumped her.

Now Squid was VICIOUS after I exposed, threatening all sorts. For weeks. And it was a very unpleasant time.

But I truly believe exposure was the main tool for good in my situation. It causes an affairs bindings to be exposed to the light of righteous criticism, and it seems not many can stand up to it.

It is the bravest and hardest thing I have ever done in my life, but the best, and one of the things I am most proud of. That day I gave up being a serf, and became a knight.

Read WATs brilliant post on exposure and apply to your own situation.

NC would not have happened without my exposing with proof.

It made me feel less helpless as a BS.

It made OM face up to the consequences in HIS life of his poor choices.

It was very very good.

And you should know that my 'cruel' exposure to OM GF has also catalysed THEIR recovery. They are still together and his GF reported an improving relationship in my last call with her in December. ( we won't speak again unless there is an emergency).

All blessings

<small>[ February 17, 2005, 06:44 AM: Message edited by: b0b pure* ]</small>

This is an excellent thread with some superb posts on exposure. Options, if you want to save your marriage, I would take the advice here, because otherwise your marriage probably won't make it. The longer you sit idly by and do nothing, the closer the affairees get. Please do all you can to make it as uncomfortable as possible. Plan A is a plan to END THE AFFAIR, not to appease the affairees at all costs.

Persoanally, I believe in exposing to everyone in one fell swoop. All done in one single day. The reason I think this is because it is easier to recover from one blow than several. The WS is always furious about exposure. Let her get furious ONCE and just get it out of the way. Additionally, it doens't give the WS the opportunity to get wind of your exposure tactics and prewarn your targets and spin the story. Its always best it comes from you, the only sane person in this story.

Update- Last night she was depressed and laid around alot. Towards the end of the night she started small talk with me. In a very non confonting manner I asked her if she as had contact with OM and she completely lied and denied any contact. It was so scary how convincing she was. I told her I know she had contact and how I knew but not how I found out. She immediately stopped talking to me and hasn't said a word since. I did no LB and just said it hurts me very much when you keep having contact.

So....

Thanks all for your advice. I am convinced it is the best thing to do at this point. I know it will be the hardest thing I have ever done. It will hurt so bad.... Please keep your support coming. I would like some more input on how to do the exposure.

Here is my situation in more detail so you can help with the plan. WW's mom watches our youngest (4 yr old) at our house everyday. I could easily talk to her any day of the week. My other child (6yrs old) goes to school where my WW works. I see the biggest influence on WW as being her mom (but I know blood is thicker than mud). WW's step dad would support WW's mom and help pray for us but probably wouldn't have much influence on WW. My mom is not local to us and would not have an influence on WW but she would give me lots of support. She has one friends that would be a good influence on her too. She has a couple friends that I do not see as a good influence. Should aunts and uncles be exposure to it too? She is not real close to church pastor and has recently said she wants to quit our church and start going to another one closer to our home. So how do you exposure and in what order? Who do you start with? What do you say? What do you not say? Should I have proof ready to show-emails?

She is going out shopping this weekend with the one friend that I see as a good influence. Should I expose to her before this weekend? That doesn't give much time considering she lives over an hour away.

Also, one of the things I worry about exposure is if or when she blows up about it, that she will take the kids and move into her mom's which to me would not be a reality check for her. (not to confuse it with plan B but she has told me before she has though about that) With my work hours, it would be hard for me to take care of the kids if she leaves. Getting the to school and home) WW knows that and would use that against me to not have the kids. If she just blows up and stays, I could take that much better. Maybe, I am jumping the gun but I am trying to think of all the possible senarios.

looking for to more advice and support.

options

I just wanted to say thanks again for the support. I know I need to do it soon and am convinced. Please keep the advice and support coming. As soon as I do do it, I will need all the support I can get.

Also, how about exposing at WW's work? I see that as the last resort but they do work together. Some of the friends I could expose to work there. I know WW and OM could get fired.

options

I would expose to her boss, not her coworkers. See, she won't be able to continue to work there with the OM and expect her marriage to recover. They can't see each other every day if you want your marriage to recover.

Essentially, you will expose to every close person who has an influence, not her aunts and uncles probably. Her friend should be at the top of your list. And like I said, I would strongly suggest you do this in one fell swoop so that she or the OM don't pre-empt you and cast you as a "jealous, insane nut."

Options,

Exposure is very important, but PLEASE DON'T go with the advise to expose the A to everyone in one fell swoop in one single day! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Please read the link below and follow starfish's advice on that thread in stead:

Concentric circles of exposure

Edited to add:

Also read the following post from starfish* (an elaboration on the contents of the previous link):
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exposure is one of the strongest and most necessary parts of ending affairs....especially when NC cannot be established or affairs have become entrenched. The right time to do it is Plan A. Why? Because in Plan B....it is viewed far more as revenge, sour grapes and simply vindictive. When you are actively trying to save your marriage is when you should expose.

The model of exposure I like best is done in steps. Because exposure is so traumatic...and can cause huge withdrawals...do the exposure that is necessary. Is the OM married...if so...then exposure begins with his wife. Wat and I recently discussed this....he called it a model of concentric circles:

At the center is the WS....they are the first to be told what you know and how you know it. Just outside of that circle is the other BS (if there is one). Together...they are the first line of defense against no contact. If contact ends....exposure goes no farther. If contact continues after it has been revealed to them....close family (parents, siblings on both sides) plus a trusted pastor or priest... are the next circle. If contact ends...it goes no further. If contact resumes, close friends/neighbors who are also friends of the marriage would be informed. If contact still continues....the last circle are work and church.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Suzet

<small>[ February 17, 2005, 08:22 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

Options,

I want to add the following:

As stated by starfish in the above quote - do only the necessary exposure becuase it is traumatic and can cause huge withdrawals. However, the other reason I think you must expose in concentric circles is because the point of exposure is not to "embarrass", “humiliate” or "destroy" or slander the OP and the WS into stopping by 'broadcasting' the A to the whole world... No, it is to expose to the least number of people necessary to encourage stopping the A. Also remember, everyone you expose to now will FOREVER remembering about your W’s A, even if she become repentant and remorseful on some point and even if you can save your M and recover with your W… Maybe, just maybe there is a chance that you don’t have to expose to EVERYONE in order to help stopping her A and this is the other reason why I think you should follow the advice on the “concentric circles” link.

Blessings,
Suzet

<small>[ February 17, 2005, 08:27 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

Hi options,

Just chiming in here. Good advice from all I think. I'm not sure about exposing at work since that seems a huge LB. But I do see the advantage of possible dismissal or at least making work environment less disrable to her. That would solve the problem of her not being willing to find a new job.

While I appreciate Suzet's points, I have to disagree. I don't think that exposure should be used as a "threat," as she is suggesting. Threatening exposure is giving away a great tool in the BS arsenal, because it only gives the WS a chance to pre-empt any future exposure. It should be used as a TOOL to end the affair, period, not a threat. It should be done in one fell swoop for 2 very key reasons:

1. it is a huge explosion and done this way, the BS only has to deal with ONE explosion, rather than several.

2. done in one day, it prevents the WS and OP from pre-empting exposure to key people therefore eliminating the possibility that the affair will be "spun" and the BS demonized

I think that only very close key people should be selected AT THE START. People who are not key to the situation should NEVER be told, even concentrically. It is none of their business. I think that close family members, close friends, perhaps a boss if warranted, but no one outside of that.

I think anything less than that is like trying to push a car up a hill with the parking brake on. A BS needs to take their best shot the FIRST TIME, not a little spittle here and there that causes new damage with each and every spittle. Just take one good clean shot ONE TIME and then you have to deal with damage control ONE TIME, not 10.

Just get it over once so you can move on to other things.

I would add that is never done for "vengeance" but no matter what, it will probably be seen as such so that should not be a consideration.