Bob and Melody,

I understand what both of you are saying and I agree that the result of losing a job is the consequence of the affair and not exposure, but the fact remains that this will be a VERY big LBer and the WS in the fog won't view it this way... Also, it will not be the ideal situation where the BS and WS can negotiate and reach an agreement about the job circumstances and/or the WS quitting the job voluntary. However…I understand in option’s case, he probably doesn’t have any other choice right now... Probably this IS the only thing that can help stop his W’s A. I just wish (because of the reasons in my previous posts) there could be other ways and strategies he could follow first before taking such a drastic step, but it seems he doesn’t have any other options right now and I understand that. I just want option to view this situation from all angels and think about all the possible pros and cons and consequences before making an informed decision about this - a decision he can feel totally comfortable, convinced and content with. I just posted my view and opinion as an RWS, but I understand how my advice can be unrealistic and ineffective in option's case. I tend to be a idealist and this is not always very practical and/or effective for certain situations. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Blessings,
Suzet

<small>[ February 19, 2005, 10:38 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

Suzet, I don't think a BS ever feels comfortable with exposure of any type. It is not supposed to be fun or "comfortable." It is supposed to be effective. A person wouldn't be normal if they didn't "feel" conflicted about it. It is not an easy thing and no one has ever said otherwise.

However, there will no "negotiation" of anything until the affair is ended and that is the entire purpose of exposure. As you can see, his W is still in contact with the OM and is still lying to Opt. So, I think you put the cart before the horse when you state that separation should be "negotiated." That isn't realistic or applicable at this stage of the game.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">, but the fact remains that this will be a VERY big LBer and the WS in the fog won't view it this way... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exposure is not a lovebuster, it is a tried and true Harley method that is probably one of the most effective methods of ended an affair there is. That is why Harley recommends it. And of course the WS won't like it. They aren't supposed to like it.

Suzet, I am really puzzled why you are so strenulously against exposure when you know it is a tried and true effective method of ending affairs. A method that is very much supported by the Harleys. You have no valid argument against it, yet you keep this debate going - at Opt's expense. He is here for help, not debate.

I realize this may be hitting close to home since you ARE a WS who still works with her OP,[and was never exposed at work] so I would hope you would take that into consideration when you dispute tried and true advice on this forum. I don't think it does Opt any good for you turn his thread into a debating forum. He is already confused and desperate enough and doesn't need to be pulled in 10 directions.

<small>[ February 19, 2005, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

Thanks all for the support and on going discussion on this topic. I have been thinking about this 24x7. I realize it is a very drastic step to expose to work.

One thing that makes me hesitate is that I know when WW finds out MIL knows she will go through a huge withdrawl. I know this because of the close relationship they have and how MIL stands on this issue. WW will have to make a decision as to keep the relationship with OM or do what is right commit to NC and keep the relationship with MIL. Both abosutely cannot happen. MIL has told me that. Before I take the drastic step of informing boss, couldn't I see the withdrawl of the WW/MIL. I think this might be enough for her to make a NC committment. If not then I expose at work. She would never think that I would expose at work. I know this. So, I don't think she would be able to undercut me there. Besides, I have physical proof to prove her wrong at work. I have emails from work account.

These are just some thoughts that I am thinking and would like it discussed.

BTW, I am still getting VERY good support from IL's. They have contacted me twice today already to see how I am doing.

God Bless all! Opt.

Opt, when you say she will go through a "huge withdrawal" what do you mean exactly?

And of course, the decision is entirely yours, but I still believe that the most effective course of action is exposure at work. Without that, you are left a WW who will be free to carry on her affair at work.

Exposure, when done halfway, only serves to drive the affairee further underground, to be more secretive. When exposure is done completely and properly, the WW does not have that option. If you help keep her secret at work, then she can maintain that refuge to carry on her affair.

Secrecy is needed to protect the affair. Exposure removes that protection.

Secondly, as long as contact - of any kind - takes place, she cannot withdraw from the addiction of the affair. She is addicted to the OM. And that is exactly what an affair is: an addiction. Going to work every day and seeing the OM is just like sending a recovering alcoholic into a bar every day and sitting her in front of a beer. She is told she cannot touch it, but who will know if she doesn't? She tries to resist, but in a weak moment cannot resist the temptation and takes a drink. Before you know it, she is back drinking again every day because she never lost that taste for beer.

Nor will she ever get over the addiction as long as she sees him every day at work.

That is exactly how it is continued contact, Opt. And that is exactly why I believe you should tell her boss no matter what. You may get her agreement that she will end the affair, just from telling your MIL, but you will then have to hope every day that she doesn't speak to the OM or resume her affair at work.

And remember, we are talking about an untrustworthy person here; a person whose word cannot be counted on. Your only guarantee is the "word" of an untrustworthy addict.

<small>[ February 19, 2005, 11:24 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

Just a quick question. Does it matter who does the exposing? What if somebody that I have already exposed to does it with proof?

opt.

What did you have in mind, Opt?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong>Suzet, I am really puzzled why you are so strenulously against exposure when you know it is a tried and true effective method of ending affairs. A method that is very much supported by the Harleys. You have no valid argument against it, yet you keep this debate going - at Opt's expense. He is here for help, not debate.

I realize this may be hitting close to home since you ARE a WS who still works with her OP,[and was never exposed at work] so I would hope you would take that into consideration when you dispute tried and true advice on this forum. I don't think it does Opt any good for you turn his thread into a debating forum. He is already confused and desperate enough and doesn't need to be pulled in 10 directions. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sighhhh… <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Melody, you keep interpreting my posts the wrong way and you keep making wrong conclusions willfully and intentionally about me and my posts. You are the one who seems to pick up an argument with me and I’m NOT going to fall for that one again… You’ve tried it OVER and OVER in the past and my intentions are definitely not to debate with anyone (especially you). In my last post I’ve even said that I UNDERSTAND now why you and Bob feel it’s necessary to take exposure at work as the next step and I’ve even AGREED with it. So I don’t understand why you said I continue with a debate… It really seems you are the one who wants to debate with me now, even after I've said I understand you and Bob's point! You know, I appreciate Bob because he stay civil without pointing fingers to me and tell me what to do on this forum and I have many respect and appreciation for that (thanks Bob! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ). Also, I’M not against exposure at all (again I don’t know where have you got that idea from!). I was only concerned about the exposure at work that that could result option’s W in losing her job (as I’ve already explained in an earlier post. Also, please note that I was not the only poster on this thread who was concerned about exposure at work initially (I was never against the concept of exposure itself as you wrongfully suggested! Further, it’s good for any person who seeks advice on these forums to hear different opinions and viewpoints before making a final decision about something. I will post and advice and give my viewpoint and opinion to whom I want and it’s not your place to tell me what to do! Also, you don’t know anything about me and my personal situation and circumstances etc and the type of relationship I was involved in, so please don’t try to pick that as an argument point. The point is, I was never exposed at work because there was never anything to expose…as simple as that. I’m not going to elaborate on that, so you can read up on my history if you want to know more…

Thank you,
Suzet

<small>[ February 20, 2005, 12:07 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

Let's drop it, Suzet. This isn't the time or place.
***edit*******

<small>[ February 20, 2005, 12:04 PM: Message edited by: Justuss ]</small>

Melody,

*********edit********
Anyway, now that things are sorted out and we understand each other, please proceed to give options your advice, guidance and support – he needs all the help he can get. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Suzet

<small>[ February 20, 2005, 12:03 PM: Message edited by: Justuss ]</small>

Suzet/Mel, I can see why you originally disagreed about the exposure at work. It is a huge drastic step. I understand the concept of exposure being the most power tool to end the A and success of it. However, it is a drastic step and as Legato has said I just need to be completely sure that I am able to live with all the consequences of my decision to expose at work. I have been thinking of this 24x7. To be honest, I hear your advice and know you both agree at this time on the issue but I don't know if I am totally ready to do it. We live in a very small town that is surrounded by small towns so the fallout of exposing at work will be huge. I feel I should see the withdrawl of MIL and see if WW will commit to any drastic NC steps voluntarily. (move, quit job, etc.) If not I think exposing at work is still a powerful tool that I hold. That is what I am thinking now. I am the one on the fence now about this issue and maybe in some fog myself. That is why I appreciate the ongoing discussion. Nobody needs to abandon the thread. I need everyones support no matter what.

Also, WW was with GF that I exposed to yesterday. She has been a completely different person since she came home. She is talking about future plans etc. She wanted to talk R but wanted me to bring it up. I didn't, so we haven't talked R yet. I do think GF said something in an indirect way about needing to work on the marriage. I will talk to GF on Monday and find out for sure.

God Bless. Opt.

OPt

Exposure causes this kind of discussion. Exposure is the 'shock and awe' tactic of ending affairs by a BS when reason and negotiation isn't working.

It is effective, but frankly, it is unpleasant for the WS and OP. And there is a risk of collateral damage.

In YOUR case where you are likely to expose to other than the OPs significant other the practical ramifications are far less controlled.

I would today almost certainly be divorced without exposure, and OM would probably be single again too. Thats why I am such an advocate of exposure.

Mel has seen BS cower from this brave action too many times and knows that without exposure usually there is no pressure on affairees to stop their affair. Its that simple.

Relying on WS and OP to come to their senses and use better judgment I think rarely works while affairs are active, or where EAs have progressed to PAs in class 2 or 'entangled' affairs.

In truth opt, If I were you I would find out using a PI somebody whose respect OM values and expose to THEM.

I'd expose the boss second if necessary, then nobody else.

But IME moral disapproval from someone WS or OM respects is more effective than professional disapproval.

Opt, I am sorry for that unpleasantness, but hopefully that is the end of that and we can now move forward.

I think it is great that your W is being nicer, but be aware that this is a very very long way from ending the affair. You are still a long way from success and have lots of work to do.

You still don't know what is going on and you have to know that. Additionally, she should agree to a) send him a letter of no contact [we have samples] and b) agree to leave her job.

She said that she wanted to have a "talk" this weekend, I would encourage you to have that talk to see where she is. Find out as much as you can. Do you know the name of the OM? I would ask as many ??s about him as possible.

And I think Bob has a good idea about using a P.I. and exposing to OM's friends. Parents of single OPs is always a good target that is not always effective in ending the affair, but does apply great pressure nonetheless.


I won't say that I am not very disappointed about your decision to not expose her at work, because I see it as the most effective way of ending this affair, but I am sure legato has another plan to end the affair. I only hope you would keep it open as an option if it seems she is not ending this affair.

Regarding GF, I would recommend that you not get into the habit of discussing situation with her. I made this mistake and later found out that my wife's friend was filtering information between us, telling my wife some things that I said and telling me some things that wife said. Her intentions were good; she was pro-marriage but I believe that it's better to talk directly and not use backdoor channels to communicate.

Options,

I remember when I first posted to you on the In Recovery Board, I sent you this link: Guidelines: How to do NC at work I want to post it to you again since this link might be helpful to you and your W on some stage. I know currently this link will not be of any use and benefit to you since your W is not committed to NC yet, but hopefully, when and if she commits herself to NC in the near future, both of you can benefit from the suggestions and guidelines in the above link. There are also some suggestions for BS’s on how to help themselves dealing with this difficult issue. Of course the best and most important thing for the WS to do when they commits themselves to NC is to quit or find another job (if the economic & financial and/or other circumstances allows it). However, while the FWS still works with the OP and/or at the same company as the OP and are committed to NC, the above thread can be very helpful. However, the most important your W must to do as soon as she commits herself to NC is to send OM a NC letter. When I sent XOM my first NC letter, I told him that our friendship were inappropriate; that I love my H and that any contact from him is hurtful to my H. I told him that I’m not interested in his friendship anymore and that I don’t want any contact from him. I asked him to just ignore me and pass me by should there be any accidental contact between us. I’m just telling you this because maybe your W can say something similar in her letter, but there are other samples of NC letters on this board you can also take a look at.

I hope things will fall into place soon and that your W will come to her senses. We are here to support & help you whatever you decide. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Blessings and prayers,
Suzet

<small>[ February 20, 2005, 10:52 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

Options,

Harley is adamant that affairees never ever see each other again so I would strongly recommend this article below. He is a trained, experienced marriage counselor and I would implore you to stick with his advice. DO NOT SETTLE FOR LESS. To suggest anything other than complete no contact is to entirely miss the addictive nature of affairs and doom you to years of hell.

The biggest mistake I have seen on this forum over the years - next to the failure to expose - is continued contact of the affair partners. It is almost always the kiss of death. It almost ensures that your W will never recover from her affair while each and every contact puts YOU back to day 1 of recovery.

Sure, some manage to get away with it, for awhile, but some folks also manage to play Russian Roulette and survive. That doesn't mean that playing RR is safe or smart.

Here are Harley's very wise words:

Never see or communicate with a former lover

Once an affair is first revealed, whether it's discovered or admitted, the victimized spouse is usually in a state of shock. The first reaction is usually panic, but it's quickly followed by anger. Divorce and sometimes even murder are contemplated. But after some time passes (usually about three weeks), most couples decide that they will try to pull together and save their marriage.

The one having an affair is in no position to bargain, but he or she usually tries anyway. The bargaining effort usually boils down to somehow keeping the lover in the loop. You'd think that the unfaithful spouse would be so aware of his or her weaknesses, and so aware of the pain inflicted, that every effort would be made to avoid further contact with the lover as an act of thoughtfulness to the stunned spouse. But instead, the unfaithful spouse argues that the relationship was "only sexual" or was "emotional but not sexual" or some other peculiar description to prove that continued contact with the lover would be okay.

Most victimized spouses intuitively understand that all contact with a lover must end for life. Permanent separation not only helps prevent a renewal of the affair, but it is also a crucial gesture of consideration to someone who has been through hell. What victimized spouse would ever want to know that his or her spouse is seeing or communicating with a former lover at work or in some other activity?

In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure.

Look at M.S.'s husband. Here he is, thousands of miles from his lover, and yet he still feels compelled to call her. Can you imagine the trouble M.S. would have had separating them if they had not moved? Their move was the best thing that could have happened to their marriage because it not only revealed the affair, but it also set up the conditions that would make ending it possible -- total separation.

We don't know if R.J. still sees his lover, but he says he has broken off all contact. In many cases where a person is still in town, that's hard to prove. But one thing's for sure, if he ever does see his lover, it will put him in a state of perpetual withdrawal from his addiction, and make the resolution of his marriage essentially impossible. In fact, one of the reasons he is not recovering after three months of separation may be that he is not being truthful about the separation.

How should an unfaithful spouse tell his lover that their relationship is over? If left to their own devices, many would take a Caribbean cruise to say their final good-byes. Obviously, that will not do. In fact, I recommend that the final good-bye be in the form of a letter, and not in person or even by telephone.

My advice is to write a final letter in a way that the victimized spouse would agree to send it. It should begin with a statement of how selfish it was to cause those they loved so much pain, and while marital reconciliation cannot completely repay the offense, it's the right thing to do. A statement should be made about how much the unfaithful spouse cares about his spouse and family, and for their protection, has decided to completely end the relationship with the lover. He or she has promised never to see or communicate with the lover again in life, and asks the lover to respect that promise. Nothing should be said about how much the lover will be missed. After the letter is written, the victimized spouse should read and approve it before it is sent.

Entire article at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

<small>[ February 20, 2005, 11:04 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by legato:
<strong> I made this mistake and later found out that my wife's friend was filtering information between us, telling my wife some things that I said and telling me some things that wife said. Her intentions were good; she was pro-marriage but I believe that it's better to talk directly and not use backdoor channels to communicate. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Legato, I think you are exactly right about this. I have recently learned this lesson the hard way in a group of female friends to which I belong. One of our friends, J, is having an affair. I gave her the what-for and encouraged her to tell her H and dump this bum. Which she refused to do.

Well, to my shock, my other friends rallied around her with sympathy! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> She is victimizing her H yet she gets the sympathy. These are not silly dumb women, these are women whom I thought possessed some brains and morals.

There seems to be a strange idea, at least amongst many women, that it is an act of "friendship" to sit idly by while the friend commits all manner of atrocities! I wasn't aware that I am quite alone in thinking that friends don't let friends destroy themselves or others. Needless to say, I am quite disappointed in my friends.

Some "suggestions"----

Agree to disagree on some issues.

Present YOUR ideas, theories, advice and suggestions WITHOUT tearing down someone elses advice, allowing options to make his own decision based on HIS circumstances.

Debate/discuss other advice,,NOT the poster.

Thanks, Justuss <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

No contact with the affair partner works in favor of the marriage.

Occasional contact with the affair partner, no matter how innocent the intent might be .... is a risk to the marriage.

This is common sense.

'Innocent contact' has re-kindled loving feeling between affair partners many many times. A prime example is Lelani's husband's story. If you would like to read Lelani's story, do a search on her name.

Continued contact is a risk.

After an affair, it is in the best interest of the marriage to eliminate every risk that it is possible to eliminate for the affair to re-kindle.

The feelings the affair partners have for each other are not extinguished with contact. They are extinguished with NO CONTACT.

again, common sense.

Best of luck with your healing Opt.

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Justuss:
<strong>Present YOUR ideas, theories, advice and suggestions WITHOUT tearing down someone elses advice, allowing options to make his own decision based on HIS circumstances.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks Justuss, I really hope the above suggestion will be strictly followed on this thread from now on since it seems me (and other FWS's who are still in the position of working at the same companies as the XOP's) AND my attempt to help/advice options on my last post was teared down again...this time in a very subtle way. Thanks again! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />


***note from JustUss*** "subtle" disagreement about advice given is ok,,tactful is ok,,with class is ok,,,,going for the throat is NOT! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ******

<small>[ February 21, 2005, 09:15 AM: Message edited by: Justuss ]</small>