</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It might help if you personify and even "demonize" the addiction. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Legato, Not sure if I understand what you mean here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by options:
<strong> I think MIL just has a fear of the shake up it will cause.

I understand your concern about everybody walking around and pretending like nothing has happened. What I have been thinking is that next piece of evidence I find that she is still having contact with OM then I will pressure MIL to talk to her. Until then, I really think it has ended. (but I am prepared if it has not ended) Mel, I know you probably don't agree with that. Right?

Opt. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But the addiction has not ended, Opt. As long as she is able to hang onto this fantasy, she will be ensnared in her addiction. If she is forced to explain her position to her mother and see the disappointment from her H, Mother and her children, reality can begin to set in. She needs to have the opportunity to see it through the eyes of rational folks in order to get through to her!

But as long as y'all walk around pretending like nothing is happening, she will remain in a fantasy land that will always be vulnerable to a resumption.

This is why exposure is SO IMPORTANT, it is a splash of cold water [reality] on a WS who has created a fantasy reality.

Please read this thread about what happens to the WS in an affair: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=31;t=010537

Ok, I am getting convinced that exposure has to happen from MIL. I will wait until next week before I pressure MIL to talk to her about it. (Out of respect for MIL's B-day.) I think I am gettng more emotionally ready for the fallout from it too.
opt.

Opt, is there some reason why her girlfriend has not told her she knows? Why is everyone protecting her from their knowledge of the truth?

And do you believe that the GF really did not know and has not told her you called her?

I have NO idea why everyone is protecting her from the truth.....

I really believe GF did not know. I saw emails from her to W and from the emails I really believe she didn't know. I have no idea why GF would now say anything to W. Although, when I talked to GF about it it was almost like she didn't want to get involved at all.

opt.

By demonize the addiction I mean - if you consider that she is not herself, that she is not in control of herself, that the addiction is controlling her words and actions then it is as if she is possessed by an evil entity - a demon.

Some here distinguish between the wayward wife and the wife saying, "that was the wayward wife talking, not the wife".

Others talk about the the WS being kidnapped by aliens. It's all the same idea really.

I'm probably just psycho-babbling here; when I typed "demonize" it just kinda popped into my head. I wouldn't attach too much importance to it.

Ok, I read Affair Exposure 102 - Help Yourself -http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=030365

That thread really hit home about exposure. I REALLY wish I would have exposed day one but what did I know. I know everybody told me to do it but I am a conflict avoider too (in case you didn't know). But believe me, all your efforts are not just falling on deaf ears. I agree that the longer it is put off the harder and it is to do. I still plan on convincing MIL to expose after her B-day this weekend. WW is going out again Saturday night. She doesn't want to stay home with me and the kids so that is a red flag to me.

It has been 2 months since D-Day (1/06/05) and I don't really see any effort on her part to commit. Except, last week she planned a summer vacation for us and she planned an Easter vacation for us too. I don't know what to take of that.

Opt.

options, I am still confused about why y'all are keeping this a huge secret? Why wouldn't your MIL just talk to her? Keeping her secret for her enables the affair. You understand this, right? What is the point of the delay?

Did you object to her going out this weekend? Are you explaining to her that this hurts you and the children greatly and you want to do things as a family?

Why not surprise her and let her know that you will be going with her?

Opt, she has absolutely no motivation to change anything if there are NEVER any consequences for anything.

<small>[ March 03, 2005, 08:19 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

Mel, I can't say enough how I appreciate your staying with me here.... You have shown a lot of patience with me. Thank You!

I knew WW was planning on going out Sat. before she told me. I asked her to go out with me and or the kids and that is when she broke the news that she will be going out with her GF's. I guess the reaction on my face was pretty sad <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> and she said "oh your feeling are hurt" and I said "yes they are". She knows she hurt my feeling but is still going out anyway. She knows I dissapprove of it. I have made plans to take the kids out of town overnight. Maybe that isn't the best thing to do. I haven't told WW about it yet.

options, I wonder if it wouldn't be better if you sit down and explain to her how very damaging it is for her to go out with her girlfriends at a time when your marriage is recovering from the BLOW of her affair. Tell her she can't be carrying on as a single woman frm your home base and that you plan on going with her.

This needs to be discussed, Opt. Openly and OFTEN. And I think also that this would be a good time to have your MIL speak to her in the hopes that it would prevent her going out.

C'mon, Opt, Rome is burning and you are playing your fiddle! Give her some resistence here! Plan A does NOT stand for appeasement at all costs, it means taking every reasonable step to END THE AFFAIR. What are you doing to end this affair?

options, my Squid behaved like a single woman: throwing herself into an independent teenager-like social life after d-day.

She also talked a LOT about her affair but much of it was very hurtful fog babble. But you NEED to have these discussions. And you need to shut up and soak up the hurt - the truth will follow some day.

Exposure lanced the boil of her hurtful behaviour.

Mel, WW knows I can't go out b/c I have to watch the kids. She seems to be going regardless. with no regard or she expects that I will be there with them. I will try to find a sitter but I would just rather her NOT go.

I will talk with her tonight about how damaging it is that she keeps going out and about the hurt it causes me and the kids. I was thinking that if I took the kids away for the night that it would be a wake up call for her to wake up by herself and go to church alone. Maybe not though. I don't know.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Tell her she can't be carrying on as a single woman frm your home base and that you plan on going with her.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right, she is carrying on like a single women. But I can't change her or control her. I can only change myself. If it continues, you are right, I don't want it to happen from our home. That is when I will have to figuure out Plan B.

Opt.

Opt, you can't change her, but you can most certainly stop making it so easy for her to destroy your family. Your job is to make the affair as uncomfortable as possible. You have a family to protect here.

Please reconsider taking the kids and leaving for the night. That will only be a RELIEF for her. Please talk to her and let her know you will be coming along. Put her in the position of trying to explain why in the world she would not want her H along if she is doing nothing wrong.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> options, my Squid behaved like a single woman: throwing herself into an independent teenager-like social life after d-day. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BP, This is exactly the way my WW is acting....However she does not talk about the A at all. Actually, she doesn't talk about anything other than the kids at all to me and only if she has to.

Here is my plan. I am going to have a talk w/ WW tonight. I will first stress how hurtful it is that she keeps going out and acting like a single women. I will stress that we, the kids and I, want her to stay home and spend time with us so we can start to work on the our marriage. If she still will not stay home and not go out, I will tell her that I am going out with her, period. You are right, I haven't shown any resistance to her hurtful actions and I will start. I guess I just have to do it without LBing.

Part of me inside wants to tell WW that if she wants to act like a single women and go out all the time with GF's then she can leave our home. Although, I don't think that would fit in my plan now, would it?

Opt.

Opt, you are exactly right, don't tell her she can leave, that would be disasterous if she followed through. You might want to say something like "no marriage can survive when one partner insists on acting like a single woman."

But, no threats.

Also, if you made such a threat it would help her justify her behavior because she would feel like a "victim."

However, please understand that being FIRM and CONFRONTATIONAL is not a lovebuster. Appeasement of bad behavior is NOT - NOT - a part of Plan A. Silence is not a part of Plan A. In Plan A, it is important that you consistently confront her bad behavior; just do it without lovebusters.

Another thing I want you to think about, Opt. Women do not respect men they can run over. She is trying to run over you right now and that is another reason it is important to be very direct with her at all times. The worst thing you can do is pretend like everything is ok and just go along to get along.

Does that make sense?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Another thing I want you to think about, Opt. Women do not respect men they can run over. She is trying to run over you right now and that is another reason it is important to be very direct with her at all times. The worst thing you can do is pretend like everything is ok and just go along to get along.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That makes alot of sense. I have been actually thinking about that.

I have confronted her in the recent past (post D-Day) about going out with her GF's and she said she feels like I am trying to control her and that she feels trapped. How do I combat that?
Opt.

Opt, that is CLASSIC WS fog speech that is designed to shut you up. They feel "controlled" if you try to stop their destructive acitivities. You can't combat that, you just can't take it seriously.

Take her accusations for what they are: FOG TALK designed to get you off her path so she can continue her destructive path unimpeded. Don't let her divert you or even bother trying to reason with her. It is like trying to reason with a drunk.

FOG TALK. I understand.

I guess then I just need to confront her and let her know my feelings and how going out is destructive to our marriage and family. I will start confronting her desructive behavior as it occurs without LBing. Like you said, I can't control her but I will make it much harder for her to carry out her destructive behavior. If she insists on going out Sat night then I will tell her I am coming along. Her reaction should tell me a lot. I think I need to draft up a speech for tonight so I make it as productive as possible without her throwing FOG talk back at me and then I get of course.

Opt.

options,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I asked her to go out with me and or the kids and that is when she broke the news that she will be going out with her GF's. I guess the reaction on my face was pretty sad and she said "oh your feeling are hurt" and I said "yes they are". She knows she hurt my feeling but is still going out anyway. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You've already told her how you feel about it. To continue to try to stop her from going out is controlling in my opinion, according to my definition.

I just don't see the point of trying to stop her from going out. There are only two possibilities - either she's
1. telling the truth and she is going out with girlfriends or
2. she is lying and going to see OM.

If 1. then you look a bit foolish saying that it is destroying your family.

If 2. she will probably not pay any attention at your attempts to lay down the law. She may feel bad about it and I guess that's what is meant by making it uncomfortable for her to continue.

But still you have no proof of 2. It could very well be but you have no proof.

I'm just thinking out loud here. As you say you can't control her, but this is kind of like trying to hide the liquor from the alcoholic - they find a way to get around you. I believe the advice to spouses of alcoholics is to detach and let them suffer the consequences of their actions. The consequence of continuing A is Plan B - but that is in the wings.

I think all you can do is tell her how you feel and why. You can't physically stop her; you can't lovebust. You can't forbid her. I don't think that repeating again "it hurts me" is really going to make any difference.

Like I say - just thinking out loud here. I've been down this road and can't say necessarily that I always handled things correctly but I think I know how this conversation will go.

Hi Legato.

Ok, Let me better clarify the situation I have here. Maybe it will make a difference or maybe not. WW is going out to a bar this weekend (with GF's) to see a band play that one of her old high school guy friend plays in. Last month, the band played at this same bar. WW went to see the band play (with GF's) and OM (not the same guy as her high school friend) was there and WW didn't get home until 3:00a.m. That isn't to say that OM will be there this time but the odds probably are against me....

So, I did decide to talk to WW tonight. I told her it hurts me that she wants to go out with GF's again this weekend. I told her I didn't think it was a good idea being the state of our relationship/marriage. WW said well I can't stand being here (at home) after the kids go to bed. I told her that I would like to come along to see the band. She said " yeah you with all the girls". I said I can ask one of my friends to come to so it wouldn't be just me and the girls. She said " well you can come but you are not hanging out with us". I knew her reaction to me going would say a lot. Also, I told her the kids miss her when she goes out (which our youngest told me that last weekend) and then she got VERY defensive and brought up times that I went away over a year ago. I knew it was major FOG TALK then and I did not try to reason with her. I just shut up.

Let me know what you all think but I think it is imperative that at least MIL exposes to her right away. I know don't anybody say I told you so..... Remember, I am a conflict avoider...

I continually ask God for strength and guidance.

Opt.