No, I am definitly not going to surrender....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And how can you disarm him?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I guess as we talked before, I could call him or email him asking telling him to back off....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by options:
<strong> No, I am definitly not going to surrender....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And how can you disarm him?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I guess as we talked before, I could call him or email him asking telling him to back off.... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You have enormous power in your hands right now that you are not using. Not that there are any guarantees, but there is a strong chance that you could end this today if you pick up the phone and call this man. [no emails please] He is being allowed to run roughshod over your family for a little fun.

Here is something else to consider. In my H's affair, the OW was under the impression that our marriage was ended, that we were separated. He told her we were separated but living in the same house until the house sold. When I contacted her and told her the truth, she dumped him THAT DAY.

It is very common for a WS to lie about their marital status. And that might be happening here. Even if its not, I suspect that your contact will shake him up enough to run for the hills.

He is probably using your wife and I also suspect he has tried to dump her recently so that tells me he is not very invested in this relationship and won't tolerate any trouble.

The most important thing, Opt, is that you have his career in YOUR HANDS. And that needs to be pointed out to him. Will this little fling be worth his career? That is what you need to ask him, Opt.

Mel, Why does OM have the most to fear?

Opt.

Opt, because if his secret gets out, his career is seriously jeopardized. And you KNOW his dirty little secret. That gives you enormous power over him.

MIL did talk to WW yesterday. I haven't talked to MIL yet so I don't know how it went. WW did not talk to me at all last night. She talked this morning very little demanding I not get MIL involved in the middle of all this. She said MIL is blaming herself for what is happening and that MIL can't take it health wise. WW said MIL gets ulcers really bad and last time had to be hospitalized when she was under a lot of stress. (It is true, I can remember when it happened). I hope I didn't love bust too bad but I told WW that it was not me who is causing the pain for MIL and that it is the choices she continually decides to make that is causing the pain/stress. I said the choices you have made not only terribly hurt me, but the hurt the kids, my family and your family. I said it in a very calm voice and had no outburst. From her reaction, I think maybe I did touch on something. That was the end of the conversation.

Opt.

Opt, I think you did an excellent job in your talk. She is trying to shift the blame for the bad behavior to you, and you didn't allow it.

Any more sessions with Steve Harley on the horizon? You didn't say much about your first session, which was very puzzling. Did you feel like he helped you? What was his plan for you?

Thanks Mel!

You bring up a good point. I am going to be trying to reschedule with SH soon. His plan was for me to get HN/HN and read it and then offer it to WW to read. He also suggested he wants to talk to WW to get more information about me. He said he would not be trying to counsel her but just wanted to talk to her to get a better understanding of me. Well, she will not read HN/HN and she will not talk to SH. So, then I was to keep doing plan A and schedule another appointment. The only problem I have is WW is watching finances closely and does not approve of spending 185 for phone counseling.

Opt.

opt, I know you are despairing right now about all this, but let me assure you that the things that are happening in your marriage right now are GOOD THINGS. It is good that you told her that her mother knows, it is good that she reacted with anger, [you hit your target and made it painful for her] it is good that your MIL spoke to her, it is good that you are addressing her behavior head on and causing her discomfort.

These are all positive developments. I think you feel sad when she is angry at you, but this is good if the underlying reason is good. I am not saying that making her angry is good in principle but if it is a result of a positive development, then it is good. She is angry because you are making it uncomfortable to carry on her affair. That is postive, Opt!

Remember, you must walk through the swamp to get out of the swamp. Feel good that you are on the path out!

Now, I know you are in your darkest hour, but I want you to please try and see the positive side of your situation and work on changing your demeanor. This is not an easy situation, but you are not without hope! You have shown that you have the cajones to address the situation with grace and courage when needed so you know you can count on yourself.

But I want to give you something else to focus on, Opt. Focus on meeting her needs, as best as she will allow you, and attracting her back to you. What kind of things can you do to attract her back? What was it that attracted her to you in the first place? Part of Plan A is becoming the best you can be. Are you pleasant to be around? SHOULD she be attracted to you?

Did you get the book His Needs/Her Needs? Do you want my copy?

Thanks Mel, you are awesome...Thanks for the encouragement. Also, thanks for offering me your copy of HN/HN but I did buy a copy of it and read it. I have left it on the night stand so she can pick it up to read if she gets the urge. (She hasn't)

I am trying to meet her EN's but it keeps getting harder. I hate to say it but I really feel my love for her is fading. Sometimes I just think it would be easier/better if she would just leave. But that is my selfish side and then I think about our kids, our families and I move on continuing with Plan A. Also, I think of all of you great people who are giving me advice and support and which helps me greatly too.

How can I meet her EN's now? Well, let’s look at that. Open to suggestions on how to meet some of the tough ones now.

1) Affection- Very hard to do at this point. Open to suggestions...
2) Conversation- She won't really talk to me at this point so open to suggestions...
3) Physical Attractiveness- I can do pretty well at this one. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> This is one thing that helped when we first starting dating. Maybe I should start working out more or buy some new cloths?
4) Recreational Companionship- She will only do this when it involves the kids. Otherwise very hard to meet.
5) Sexual Fulfillment- non existent. I have put this at the last of the list and am not concerned about my needs at this time...
6) Domestic Support- I can meet this need.
7) Financial Support- I can meet this need.
8) Family comment- I can and have been doing this very good.
9) Honesty and Openness- Have been doing very well and have been trying to create an environment that will help her be this.
10) Admiration- I feel this is a tough one now too. If I complement her (and I have been) she seems to think it is fake. Maybe some are sinking in though.

Opt.

Opt, I can understand why you are getting worn down. This is a tough brutal job you have. I do think, though, that some of your weariness stems from 2 perception problems on your part:

1. you don't recognize the postive developments that are happening in your marriage now

2. I think you feel hopeless and helpless about your ability to help yourself and overcome your fears

I think both of those things have contributed to your sense of hopelessness and despair. That is why I wanted to emphasize the positive developments in my last post. You may not recognize them as positive developments, but experienced folks here will tell you that they ARE positive.

You have also done VERY WELL in weathering your W's angry tirades. You handled them calmly and firmly and did not react in front of her. Instead, you came here and reacted! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Which is fine! That is what we are for.

You can expect her to become angry any time you disrupt her destructive path. And you can also expect her to use her anger to try and manipulate you into a position of INACTION.

She will do anything to stop you - SO JUST EXPECT IT! And don't let her anger divert you off your path, Opt. You are a man with a mission and you can't be diverted off your path with her ranting and raving!

You have shown that you do have the courage to do even very TOUGH THINGS when necessary. You can
be counted on to do the right thing, Opt. See, you do feel great reluctance to do hard things sometimes, but you know what? SO DOES EVERYONE! What separates the men from the boys are those who give into their fears and do nothing. You have shown that you have more courage than fear and can manage this situation well. You proved that when you exposed to your MIL and then confronted your W about it. Nor did you let your W's anger manipulate you into silence.

Boy, am I longwinded today!

Opt, which EN's do you think are her top ones? What do you think attracted her to the OM? Do you think there was something missing the marriage that made her vulnerable to the OM?

Check this out... WW just emailed me here is her email. Let me know what you all think of it.

"I am sorry for everything. I want to make things better in some way. Maybe we should do the counseling? I told mom my feelings about everything and her advice was to do what ever for the kids and she is right. So, I guess that would be counseling so at least we can talk to each other without fighting in front of them. I don't want to do that. Ever. At this point it is about the kids for me. I am still very mad that you pulled her into this because she takes it on as her own problem and she doesn't need it. I don't see how that can do any good. I think that the more people know, the worse it will be because it never goes away; people will always judge and make opinions and that will ultimately hurt the kids and our future if there is one someday."

Don't respond yet! I am thinking.

Telling her mother was definitely very effective, you do see that, right? She, of course, does not like the interference in her destructive path, but that is good.

I would tell her that you will do whatever it takes to save your marriage because you love her, and if that means involving her family, you WILL DO IT. Leave it at that!

I would take her current willingness for counseling and RUN WITH IT! GIVE IT YOUR BEST SHOT while the door is open. This door may not be open again for a long time,[remorse does not have a long shelf life for a foggy WS] so you MUST do it right the first time.

I would call up Harley and get an appt time. Get one when you know she can be there. Tell them you have this golden opportunity and need to get her into see Harley ASAP.

You don't want to waste this short window on fishing around for good counselors. They are few and far inbetween! That is because most counselors are NOT pro-marriage and can be damaging to your marriage. They are PRO-DIVORCE. We already KNOW that Harley is pro-marriage and he is VERY GOOD with WS' who are in a fogged out state. He is brilliant in reaching these people.

your wife wrote:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">people will always judge and make opinions and that will ultimately hurt the kids and our future if there is one someday." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow, so telling your family about HER AFFAIR somehow hurts "the kids," huh? FOGHORN!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> [gee, all this time we thought it hurt her]

Options,

aaaaaooooooogggggaaaaaaa

That's the sound of Melody's fog horn.

Calmly explain to your WW that the affair is the one that thing that endangers the family and therefore the kids. No judgements to her as to whose fault it is. Just the simple truth.

Keep reiterating that the reason for disclosure is to end the affair.

Sounds simple. I know it isn't always as simple to implement, but keeping trying.

Mac

Options,
I went back and read a few of your recent exchanges with Melody. She is doing an unbelievable job. She is hitting the target in nearly every response.

One thing caught my eye. You are a bit like me I'd guess in that you want to save the M so you'll try a strategy. It appears that when the wife responds with pain you have a tough time with it and retreat a bit in the stategy.

If I'm wrong on this forgive me, but I was the same way. I'd expose or discuss the effects of the affair and when I saw my wife upset/depressed/whatever I'd back off a bit. Shouldn't have. Should have pressed the advantage. Of course in a calm even tempered approach.

The short run will be painful. It has been for you and it will be for your wife. There is no progress w/out some pain. Know this and keep the long term objective in mind.

NPNG

Mac

Wow, so much to respond to I don't know where to start. Thanks for more advice and support......

I think SH wants to talk to WW alone first. I am going to call and schedule an appointment. Hopefully, she will still be open to it. I will try for tomorrow evening. That should be a safe bet.

I haven't responded to WW email yet. I am taking your advice in and getting some thoughts together. I do see what is happening as being positive. That fact she mentioned counseling about knocked me over. She was so dead set against it before.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> aaaaaooooooogggggaaaaaaa

That's the sound of Melody's fog horn.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I love it!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Keep reiterating that the reason for disclosure is to end the affair.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think this is very important because she is so concerned about people knowing. I also told her this morning that I would tell anyone necessary and I didn't want to continue living a lie. I hope that wasn't an LB but I think it made her wonder who else I might expose to.

Opt.

Option,
Another thought on your wife's issues with disclosure.

Next time you are having one of those calm talks and reiterating the reason for disclosure:

anyone? anyone?

That's right to end the affair.

You may want to mention that disclosure isn't exactly something that you would do unlees it was the only way.

Why? Disclosure is just as embarrassing and humiliating, if not more, to the BS as it is to the WS.

If she's deep in the fog she may care less but as she comes out she'll realize that you made a huge sacrafice for her, the family and the marriage.

Just a bit more ammo.

NPNG

Mac

Thanks cwmac for the ammo. WW wants to talk tonight so I am getting some points together. I think the main point I want to get across is about disclosure.

1) The reason for disclosure is to end the A
and
2) that I told you I would do anything, because I love you, to end the A and if that means disclosing to your family, my family, etc. I will do that.

3) that disclosure is not something I want to do unless it is the only way to end the A. Why? because it is just as humiliating and embarrassing to me as you, if not more.

4) The reason: The A is the one thing that greatly endangers our marriage, family, and kids.

5) Then I am going to talk about MC. WW was not convinced that phone counseling was a very good option before, so I will have to sell her on that.

6) I want to talk about NC too.

Let me know what else I may want to discuss. I guess I need to be careful and not over do it but there are some points I think I should say. I am looking for advice. adding or removing something.

Opt.