</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by patriot92:
<strong> She has the softest skin. She thinks I look down on her when her nails are chipped. She tries to hide them from me when I look at her hands. Her hair is as long as I have ever seen it. No matter how she fixes it, it always looks good. Sometimes awesome. She has the neatest tendency to not look at you directly when she talks to you. She looks at you from a sort of side-angle. It is like a supermodel posing for a picture. They never look directly into the camera.... there is always an angle. That is how she looks at me, like she is always posing. I know that she does this without thinking about it, which is what makes it the sexiest and cutest thing. She is an expert at putting on make-up so that it does not even seem to be there. Always blended perfectly. Truly accentuates features that are to me, beautiful already. She is so strong, even though she will deny it. And giving, even when she says she has nothing to give. I watch her watching me sometimes. She laughs at my jokes. She gets me. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi, patriot.

I am glad that you have seen your wife a little bit. If you just pay attention to her a little, you will find something new every single day, that you like or admire in her.

It is extremely common, for men and women alike, to get in a relationship, and then immediately begin to look outside their relationship for something better.

That tendency, unless addressed, can grow and grow, eventually becoming a huge source of resentment against the other spouse.

"Why don't you do what Betty does? She fixes up all the time." "Well, if you were half the man that Fred is, I wouldn't have to worry about money"

The grass seems greener on the other side of the fence, but it rarely is.

Eventually, that resentment begins to fuel an ever growing sense of entitlement. "Since you won't give me what I need, I will get it somewhere else.", "I will teach him a lesson he will never forget", "Am I not special? Don't I deserve to be loved?".

By now, the relationship has the classic affair ready hole, just waiting for the right words, from the wrong person, to fill it.

It is important that you and Frozen have a real look at each other every single day. You want to look for and see the good things in each other. The ugly things in each of us are mostly easy to see, kind of like a wart on the very tip of your nose. Sometimes, the hard part, is ignoring the ugly item enough, so that it doesn't totally distract you from being able to see the good in each other. This is not some mystical, hard to grasp concept, just basic common sense.

Tell me about Frozen's kids, Patriot.

All the best,
Gimble

<small>[ February 20, 2005, 02:49 AM: Message edited by: Gimble ]</small>

Ah what does Gimble know <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Heard ths Still small voice again , mate ? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Patriot, frozen, Gimble is an extraordinary counsel. Heed him.

She has 2 children that live with us and I have one that does not.

DD17 is beautiful and an artist. Had a spell for a while of being very rebellious. Against froz, against me(somewhat even though I really wasn't in the parenting picture then) and against life. She made horrible grades, ran away a few times and made generally bad decisions. Then, she figured out that the only one holding her back was her. She really gets that... and that is crazy to me. I didn't figure out I was holding me back(you know, angry at the world... everyones out to get me.... yada yada) until I was on active duty in 96. Almost 10 years ago, and oddly enough, just as soon as I figured this self-destructive behavior out and change it, things turned for me. DD understands this already and she is just 17. I think she has known it for a while. I know she knows it becuase she had me proof an essay on this subject and wow... I was impressed. Also, school is no longer "I hate this". It is prep for college. I am proud to have her as my daughter. I got to pick my daughter, sort of, and I could not have done any better.

DS14 is so much like me it is weird that he really isn't my son. He's addicted to computers. He makes high grades. He's bored in school because it isn't challenging enough. He's getting bigger by the minute and eats everything in site. He is just like me when I was his age. He has one very stark difference, however. I think he loves his family and he stays in his room a lot to play on the internet(games and the like). He will come out and participate in family life if there is something to do. He will watch TV in the living room. He and I talk sometimes about things in general. We laugh sometimes. I did none of this. I stayed in my room because I wanted to stay away from my family. I secluded myself because my step-mother was about the most confrontational person alive and I was odd man out. I can cover that situation later if your interested

DS6 This one is mine and he lives with his mother. Ah... the blessing from my first marriage. I can cover that situation as well... later if you wish. DS is smart, cute and funny. He's very needy, but I am sure that is due to the situation(separated parents). He is manipulative like most kids his age. According to Froz, he is a brown version of me(wife was mexican). Stands like me. Acts like me(or I act like a 6 year old... lol). He is a great kid. And I love getting him toys because I can play too. I have your typical father concerns I think. Is he going to be a wuss. Which team is he going to play pro ball for. You know... the important stuff.

They are all great children. They truly are blessings and good people to be around.


There are great things to notice about Froz. She's trying so hard to get out of the woods and she is really buckling down, applying things she has learned. Yet she thinks she is weak. Crazy. Of course I have no credibility, but anyone that I know that knows about the A will tell you she is strong. So I am not the only one seeing this. I need to pay more attention to her, because for 24 hours worth of watching, I didn't have much to report. The good news is, I am more than willing to redo the assignment. Even when I do get it right. Anyway, there is something to chew on. Good night.

Hi, Patriot.

quote:
=================================
There are great things to notice about Froz. She's trying so hard to get out of the woods and she is really buckling down, applying things she has learned. Yet she thinks she is weak. Crazy. Of course I have no credibility, but anyone that I know that knows about the A will tell you she is strong. So I am not the only one seeing this. I need to pay more attention to her, because for 24 hours worth of watching, I didn't have much to report. The good news is, I am more than willing to redo the assignment. Even when I do get it right. Anyway, there is something to chew on. Good night.
 =================================

I am sorry that frozen thinks she is weak. What could you do to help her feel strong? Have you asked her?

Are there things you can do to make her feel protected?

Why do you think you have no credibility?

I want to tell you a true story, about me.

Back in the late 70's, I had a job doing electronic, electrical and occasionally, some mechanical work. One day, in an effort to get a piece of equipment repaired quickly, I took a shortcut that went wrong, and the result severely damaged a man's eye.

I think that you know how I felt.

The problem for him, was the serious pain, and all the medical work that would have to be done to try and save his eye. He had multiple operations, and pain. Lots and lots of pain. Days of pain. Months of pain.

I was crushed that I had hurt another human so badly. I grieved, I cried, I prayed. Nothing, took away the guilt and the emotional pain I felt, yet I knew it was nothing compared to what he was going through, and the fear he must of felt.

The long term problem for me, other than those already mentioned, was what in the world I was supposed to do now.

I wanted desperately to leave my job, after all, daily I had to face the people that witnessed my stupidity, and *everyone* knew what I had done. I needed this job, I had to feed my family. There was nowhere to go, and nowhere to hide. Everything I did was suspect. I felt like I lived in a fishbowl.

What I did do was to do the things that I knew were right, and moral. I showed up to work everyday, I worked hard. I offered to pay restitution for what I had done. I changed my approach to safety, determined never to make that mistake, or any other so thoughtless again. I made sure that I did it cleaner and better and safer than anyone else. Slowly, I recovered the respect I had lost from my co-workers.

What I learned from my mistake, stuck to me like glue, and is still with me today.

Over the years, I have contacted the man I damaged a number of times. Although his eye will never be completely functional, and still gives him pain occasionally, he forgave me almost immediately after the incident. In my repeated contacts, I came to realize that his forgiveness was genuine. I can't tell you what that has meant to me over the years.

Patriot, you can never take back what you have done, but you can't live in fear, with your head down. You have to look your wife straight in the eyes, then face the fear, and hurt you see there. You have to learn to work again, and learn the lessons that will prevent you from ever making the same mistake again. You will have to do it safer, cleaner and better than you ever have before.

You earn your respect back by doing it right, and doing right, consistently.

All the best,
Gimble

Hi, Patriot.

In addition to the couple of questions in my previous post, I would love to hear about the EN questionnaire.

Which needs of Frozen's do you think you are missing?

How do you think you might go about making changes to address them?

All the best,
Gimble

Have to get to work(the Army never sleeps or something) ... but I will reply to these items later.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am sorry that frozen thinks she is weak. What could you do to help her feel strong? Have you asked her?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She feels weak because she has made it through all the hell in her life due to her survival instinct that made her. She sees it that she had no choice but to carry on. Not that she overpowered the odds by sheer will.

I disagree with her on this. Watch the news on any given evening and you are likely to hear of someone dealing with the hell in their life in a weak fashion. Suicide is the weak mans answer to crises. Divorce is much the same way, but not completely. Either way, both, and many other 'things' people in this world choose are for the weak. Why?

Because it is quitting. In most cases, quitting is for the weak.

Yet, I extend that Froz is not weak, contrary to her own summations. She is still here working on this nightmare with me that I caused. She has two children that are quite capable and intelligent. She functions in daily life and is productive. She has not quit and everyday she grows. She thinks she has made it this far because she has too. It just might feel that way, but I think she had a choice. People leave their children in dumpsters, give them away or sell them or kill them everyday. People stop functioning in daily life all the time. She has not done these things and, as absolutely rediculous as they may sound, they were/are choices available. She has done the right thing for her children and herself almost all the time and held it together. That is strength to me. It is the muscle that moves the rod. It is the heart and mind that moves the mountain.


Actually, when I asked her "What things make you feel strong?" or "How can I make you stronger?" her answers were from the opposing "Here is what you don't do, if you want to make me stronger" viewpoint.

Using what she said, I can make her stronger by being dependable. By being consistant. By protecting her from that which she is not aware of by making her aware of it and not hiding it. By standing by her, and being on her team.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are there things you can do to make her feel protected?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes there are. I can not place her in crisis. I might not be able to save her from crises, but I don't have to put her in one. I can make sure she is prepared for what is on the horizon. I can make sure she knows the truth. I can shield her from needless, hurtful change.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why do you think you have no credibility?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I have no credibility with her. I lied. Before DDay to hide my sins. After DDay to protect me from them at her expense. Niether were successful. The only thing that has been successful has been honesty. And once you destroy your credibility, or believability, it takes time and consistency to regain it.... as you illustrated.

Hi, Patriot.

Those were very thoughtful answers. Thank you.

I want to add something for you to think about. It applies to Frozen feeling protected, as well as you, and a proper understanding of it is a basic principle of strength in a relationship.

So here it comes. A tough question, take your time. Ask Frozen if she will work on it with you.

What is a 'prop' in a marriage, and how does it adversely affect the relationship?

All the best,
Gimble

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What is a 'prop' in a marriage, and how does it adversely affect the relationship?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He's asleep. I wake up at this same time every single night...drives me crazy. I would wait for him, but the suspense is killing me...

Prop: something that serves as a means of support or assistance.

The first thing that comes to mind as to how it could adversely affect a relationship is that there may be situations in which one spouse offers a 'prop' to the other spouse and this 'prop' prevents the 'prop-ee' from growing or being able to do for themselves what the 'prop-er' is doing for them.

Am I even warm?

<small>[ February 23, 2005, 08:35 AM: Message edited by: frozen1229 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by frozen1229:
<strong> [QUOTE]

Am I even warm? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fire.

Keep going.

Also consider props from expectation, and individual props brought to the relationship from the beginning and the ones added over time.

Gimble

Patriot may I ask you a few questions. I need to learn from you. But first of all I think you have done the right thing telling all. I wish my WH would tell me all. Did you not feel safe in telling Froz or were you just so scared. How long did this take beofre you finally told the truth and did she have to ask or did you just offer? My WH is lying - I know it is because he is afraid. He too has not called the MC, says he will then does not. Mine said he told me everything -no he has not. How can 2 yrs + be said in 5 minutes. He said he was sorry and cried for a couple of minutes. Then was fine.???Wants to move on and not talk anymore -cover up his mistake. He is working on the house again after not doing so for over 2 years. That is a plus. He does tell me nice things.Says he loves me all the time. Tells me he is not in contact with OW -yet has cell phone incoming calls lasting 10 - 20 minutes. I do not know with who -he is not one to talk on the cell -as it is work cell phone. PC to PC. Usually our calls are one to two minutes. I got the book HN/HN and read it and asked him to as well. He finally took the book on his own this am. I hope he reads it and discusses it wth me. What do you think is this what you did ? Are doing ?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by realtor*:
Patriot may I ask you a few questions. I need to learn from you. But first of all I think you have done the right thing telling all. I wish my WH would tell me all. Did you not feel safe in telling Froz or were you just so scared. How long did this take beofre you finally told the truth and did she have to ask or did you just offer?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not to be confused and lead you to the incorrect assumption about me, I have not told my wife everything. That said, I fully intend to. I have no large crucial details for her to know, like another affair or the like. I have corrections to make for my lies to her after DDay that were simply to protect me and my feelings. Lies yes, but only lies to minimize the pain for her I thought at the time. Shortly after DDay I did not understand the reasons to tell the complete truth about the details when she asked. Things like she asked how many different hotels OW and I went to. I stated one. That was a lie. That was a lie, and at the time of questioning seemed to minimize the impact of what I did wrong. Really, all it did was hurt her more because I lied about something really insignificant(to her, she says) and, therefore, it was assumed that I would lie about big things for sure.

The fact is, I only have details to cover, but Froz knows the high level story. I had an A. With only one OW(there are not multiple).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My WH is lying - I know it is because he is afraid. He too has not called the MC, says he will then does not. Mine said he told me everything -no he has not. How can 2 yrs + be said in 5 minutes. He said he was sorry and cried for a couple of minutes. Then was fine.???Wants to move on and not talk anymore -cover up his mistake. He is working on the house again after not doing so for over 2 years. That is a plus. He does tell me nice things.Says he loves me all the time. Tells me he is not in contact with OW -yet has cell phone incoming calls lasting 10 - 20 minutes. I do not know with who -he is not one to talk on the cell -as it is work cell phone. PC to PC. Usually our calls are one to two minutes. I got the book HN/HN and read it and asked him to as well. He finally took the book on his own this am. I hope he reads it and discusses it wth me. What do you think is this what you did ? Are doing ? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As RIF often preaches, MC is vital to this recovery process. If for nothing else, it shows the BS that the WS is serious about recovering and working through the issues... i.e. not hiding from one's shame. We have not been to counseling in 2 weeks, primarily due to my insurance changing and I have to figure out how to work the Tricare(military health plan) program so that I can try to keep the same MC. That is a mission I have assigned myself today and tomorrow.

I will give you some insight that you may or may not know. WS's lie. They have to to maintain any sort of A. That said, it is not logical to believe that upon DDay, the WS will instantly flip the switch and no longer lie. Exposure, no matter how far it goes, is a highly uncomfortable process. WS's interested in recovery feel shame for what they did and a natural human response to make shame go away is to not deal with it. Out of sight out of mind. Lying is a way to make things go away(an obviously flawed one, but hey... people drink to make pain go away and yet, it brings them more pain) Also, if people were such pros at dealing with their emotions, then there would be really no reason for counselors. Kind of like there is really no need for a CPA's services to the average taxpayer. A computer and turbo-tax, and bang, you are a pro and can get your taxes done. Sure, there are always instances and odd cases in which the services of a specialist are needed.

Anyway, Froz and I have POJA'ed(brilliant theory) my giving of the truth. First, I have to be honest. That is on me. She and I have agreed that there is no substitute for the truth. We both also subscribe to most if not all views presented in MB principles. But the important part of this is she has agreed to make it safe for me to tell the truth.

She wants the truth. She wants to get her questions answered. However, she is not interested in making the giving of truth as uncomfortable as possible for me. I think what she is doing is graceful and brilliant. Why?

Because she listened to me and looked at how she was reacting to me prior to our POJA session. Before, she would ask questions in angered tones and say hurtful things to me in response. These extremely tense and angered conversations easily lead me to want to minimize the impact, as I weighed it in my mind, just to stop her. Sure, a case can easily be made for her 'right' in doing this. But I have an idea for you... if she was interested in recovery, wouldn't she try to make these conversations more calm so I wouldn't get emotionally backed into a corner and revert to my old defense mechanisms?(which is possibly an odd statement to make... admitting reverting to old methods... but when the rubber meets the road, cognition can easily be eroded by 'please make her stop interrogating me') I want to give her the truth(a decision I made). She wants the truth. And as it has been stated on this board several times, it is important for the BS to know the truth so they can stay with the WS.

So, a BS may be very angry at the WS. Understandable. And if the BS is not interested in recovery with the WS, then pound away on the WS's emotions if it makes you feel better. Scream and yell and release your fury on the WS, who may or may not feel the gut-wrenching shame and guilt of destroying a human being. But if the BS wants to recover, and the WS wants to recover... and rebuild, then these two people have to work together. Don't settle for less than the truth. But be part of the agreement on how to get it.

To close, I do not feel entitled to missing Froz's wrath in this whole subject. I had an A and she has to deal with it. For that I am ashamed and guilty. But her grace and willingness to make it safe for me to tell the truth are but logical manifestations of a BS truly interested in having an awesome marriage. Isn't that what marriage is really all about? Working with each other instead of against.

Sorry it took me so long for the response. Time continues to move forward, even when you stumble.

A prop. Hmm.. Well, I guess I will break this down by defining the word and then expanding on that.

prop2
n.
A theatrical property.

The simplest definition to find. Even so, it has teeth. Pondering this, I find that when I say the word ‘prop’ I think of the movies and all the equipment they use to give off the illusion of something. A gun. A car driving down the street. A man flying. So on and so forth. Maybe at one point in time the item was real and operated as they are depicting in the movie, but more than likely it has been altered to no longer function, for say a matter of safety. A gun comes to mind on this one. So, something that is fake.. Something that is designed to look like something it truly isn’t. False.

Dishonest.

This is how a prop of this type can be detrimental to a marriage. Nothing that is false shall nourish a bond between a man and a woman. Actually, by this definition, a lie is a prop. I ‘show’ her something to make her think it is real, when in actuality, it is not. Maybe you use a ‘prop’ to distract in order to obfuscate a view of the real evil occurring right under someone’s nose. I guess it is also possible to use prop in a more benign manner and make a joke with it. “I bought my wife a bracelet… I like to dress her up with props.” However, with the term seeming to speak to falsehood and dishonesty to me, I doubt this will be humor I will pursue.


prop1
n.
1. An object placed beneath or against a structure to keep it from falling or shaking; a support.
2. One that serves as a means of support or assistance.

This definition seems to have a potential for positive meaning. Supporting something and assisting someone can’t be all bad. Given this definition, it could be argued that I am ‘propping’ up Froz’s relationship with me. Assisting her in the rebuilding of it. Which, in turn, is assisting her in being more productive… helping her to be happy. I like this definition from that angle, simply because it speaks to the care and support a loved one shows another. However, yet again, the definition could be speaking to lying. To keep my relationship with Froz from “falling” or “shaking” while conducting an affair, I could ‘prop’ up her trust in me so that she remains blind to the facts.
From this, I can derive one thing. Prop, denotatively, is not an evil word. Connotatively, though, it can be misused to hide a true representation. Much like other words in the English language, it is the true heart-felt meaning of the user that employs the word that makes the word evil or not.

I will always attempt to ‘prop’ up Froz, as in support her, to enable her to be strong and steadfast. I will not, however, use ‘props’ to obfuscate or cloud her view of truth or reality. And it is this mindful exercise of care and protection that seems to make recovery, or just simply a relationship, possible.

Betrayed spouses, *please* read no further here. This post is directed at Patriot and may cause a lot of triggering for you. The discussion below is per request.

Hi, Patriot.

You have some good thoughts on the prop issue. I want to come back and finish up on it in a few days, but I want to take a trip along a different issue for a bit if you can handle it.

One of the most common difficulties in recovery after an affair is with sex. I want to cover some basic issues with you to start.

I need to ask you a few pointed questions. Please answer them honestly, with explanations if you can. They may sting a bit. Please realize that I am not attacking you.

Do you know why bringing a third person (imaginary) into your bedroom is damaging to your fragile connection with your wife?

Do you think that you are comparing your wife with the other woman when you are making love to her?

Does your wife know what you are seeing, when you are looking at her while you make love to her? Is she comfortable with your focus?

If this discussion is too difficult for you publicly, I will be glad to conduct it off-list with you.

All the best,
Gimble

sent you a mail.