Yes,

Understood Daisy..but the thing is..I don't suspect him of having an inappropriate online relationship..it's that he isn't protecting me from the potential for one.

Perhaps because he has not investigated the risk himself..but no, I have made him aware that it exists..and more importantly I have made him aware that I am uncomfortable.

So, he hasn't addressed it himself..he will not take my word for it..what is there to conclude but that he DOES NOT WANT to examine this..because to do so would require change that he is loathe to make?


To be honest..I really don't even CARE about the game per say..if I had reason to believe that he had a grasp of and dedication to the rules of protection..I would extend far more credibility to his judgement.

In short..you CAN earn more freedom than you will ever steal.

Noodle

Noodle, oh eloquent one! Do whatever you have to do to feel safe. Two years after Dday, he should know you need support, trust and reassurance. Follow your gut feeling; he's slipping. He needs reminding of the rules. You gave him a gift when you allowed him back into your life after Dday. He sounds like he is becoming complacent and it is not good enough (for you). TT

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by noodle:
<strong>

I'm not interested in running a police state. I'm not interested in snooping or investigating him. I am sorry to be such a snot..but that behavior is beneath me. It makes me sick in my soul. Turns me into someone that even I do not respect. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">noodle, I have never felt that way about snooping, I view it as a protective manuever that can reap great benefits, if used rightly. Snooping to just be snooping is sleazy, but that is a very different thing from snooping to protect oneself. And I do have a great deal of self respect, I don't believe there is anything respectful about allowing someone to destroy you behind your back.

In your case, you still have grave concerns about your H's faithfulness and committment. I don't know if those fears are well founded or not. And neither do you. That is my entire point. You need to find out.

You have anxieties, but nothing really to base them on. My point is that putting the spyware on his computer would reduce your anxiety because you could see for yourself if there is, indeed, a problem you should be concerned about. If there is no problem, you are reassured and can move forward. If there is, you will know what you are dealing with. But either way, your anxiety will be lessened because you are not left to wonder and rely on the word of someone you don't trust.

I do think its very damaging to confront someone who is innocent and if you had all the facts, you could avoid that lovebuster.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by noodle:
<strong>

To be honest..I really don't even CARE about the game per say..if I had reason to believe that he had a grasp of and dedication to the rules of protection..I would extend far more credibility to his judgement.

In short..you CAN earn more freedom than you will ever steal.

Noodle </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I gotcha, noodle, and that does make a huge difference. I was going to recommend counseling, but that will do no good if the subject is unwilling. Maybe a letter would be effective after all.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by noodle:
<strong> Yes,

Understood Daisy..but the thing is..I don't suspect him of having an inappropriate online relationship..it's that he isn't protecting me from the potential for one.
Noodle </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But this is still a boundary and POJA issue.

He should not be doing anything that you do not 100% agree with.

I remember one particuarly IDIOTIC conversation H and I had about what was appropriate conversations or interactions with the opposite sex.

This this IDIOTIC conversation (and I use the term IDIOTIC here because HELLO telling another women to dream about your handsome face was IDIOTIC) came about after I caught him with a keylogger.

Anyway....I was floored that my H would do such an IDIOTIC thing after d-day. I could not for the life of me understand why I would have to spell out to him that that type of exchange was NOW and FOREVERMORE off limits.

H said things to me like `Well I guess I can NEVER talk to another women as long as I live...`

He really did not get it. I had to explain to him that YES he could talk to other women but that flirting was no longer acceptable....discusssing ME or the M with any female who was not BLOOD related was off limits...and that he had to stop and think before anything came out of his mouth ``Would I say this if my W were here"`

We had to get into the nitty gritty of it all and go down all the possible scenarios.

And I told H no more online conversations with any woman who is not BLOOD related to you.

Noodle he did not get it until I spelled it out in great detail.

One thing that helped drive home my point was that this W of his co-worker up and left her H and children for an OM she met online about a month after I caught H with the keylogger. My H honestly thought that it was just an innocent flirtation on both their parts until he heard about this.

Men get sucked in very easily...my H was VERY naive. So I had to set the boundaries for him. He could not do it for himself.

<small>[ February 22, 2005, 09:56 AM: Message edited by: Daisy37 ]</small>

Melody,

It wasn't his use of the spyware that made me realize that I should not trust him. It was my complete and utter awareness as a result that even though I had been, up to the point of the A, a trustworthy person, I was capable of taking advantage of the trust he had in me, and that he could very well do the same. And though I am back to being trustworthy, I can never expect him to take my word for it....he never should have in the first place, and I realize now that neither should I take HIS word for it.
I just don't think use of spyware proves much....you said your trust in your husband was gained back quickly as a result of your using it, yet you have not told him and you are keeping it in your back pocket. That tells me you don't trust him completely....and I agree, you shouldn't. Do you think he should trust YOU?


NOW

Daisy,

You are correct, it IS a boundary and POJA issue..now if H was just clear on the concept of boundaries and POJA I think this would be..actually, I don't think it would be an issue at all.

You see..I am aiming for the General , not wasting my time and efforts with the seemingly innumerable supply of underlings. Not wasting my time with the detail issues and going for the jugular. Does that make sense?

I don't want to spend the rest of my life expanding..at length..on each and every possible situation. H is a grown man, an intelligent man..and is remaining ignorant by choice.

I want to uncover the root of that choice and expose it. I want a real answer..a real commitment. Change.

Noodle

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It wasn't his use of the spyware that made me realize that I should not trust him. It was my complete and utter awareness as a result that even though I had been, up to the point of the A, a trustworthy person, I was capable of taking advantage of the trust he had in me, and that he could very well do the same.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now, I am confused. I don't understand why you say you don't trust him. What has he done to warrant your distrust? I realize you should never blindly trust anyone, but you can't use that to classify someone as "untrustworthy" until their behavior warrants it.

But no, I will never blindly trust anyone again and I think in practice, it is not a wise principle.

Daisy,

One more addition. That attitude that you describe with words like well, I guess I can NEVER talk to a woman ever again [forgive me if it wasn't a direct quote..going from memory here.

These are not the words of a remorsefull man.

They are the words of a petulant child being denied a cookie.

That isn't inability to get it..it is refusal to.

This is the sort of attitude that will cost H his marriage..were you able to overcome it? If so, how?

Noodle

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by noodle:
<strong>
I don't want to spend the rest of my life expanding..at length..on each and every possible situation. H is a grown man, an intelligent man..and is remaining ignorant by choice.

I want to uncover the root of that choice and expose it. I want a real answer..a real commitment. Change.

Noodle </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have not spent anymore time discussing this with my H I made everything clear in that one IDIOTIC conversation.

In a perfect world the spouses would naturally understand what is appropriate behaviour and conversations and what is not. It is obvious that the WS s have not been capable of figuring out what is appropriate and what is not.

And d-day and recovery does not seem to address this. Sometimes they need more clarification.

There is a way to simplify all of this....

If your spouse says or does ANYTHING with an OP that he would NOT do or say in front of you... and you find out about then it will be a dealbreaker.

And if your spouse does ANYTHING that you have told them BEFOREHAND is going to hurt you...like online chatting with OPs that will also be a dealbreaker.

And then you leave the ball in their court. Let them figure it out.

<small>[ February 22, 2005, 10:23 AM: Message edited by: Daisy37 ]</small>

OK, it was the fact that he could do something behind my back, without telling me. The same thing I did when I had an affair. I "felt" justified (at the time) because he was withholding a portion of himself from me pre-A, which now that I say that, I realize I did not consider him trustworthy THEN because he was very much withdrawn from the marriage. And on the flip side, I was guilty also of withholding a part of myself from HIM....PRE-A...so I was also not trustworthy, and not because of something I did overtly but rather something I did NOT do....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by noodle:
<strong>
These are not the words of a remorsefull man.

They are the words of a petulant child being denied a cookie.

That isn't inability to get it..it is refusal to.

This is the sort of attitude that will cost H his marriage..were you able to overcome it? If so, how?

Noodle </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No he was not remorseful...at first....he was when he heard about that particular woman leaving her H though....

H was just mad AT ME for spying on him and then òverreacting` Until he heard about her leaving her H... my H thought this was all perfectly innocent...just a bit of fun.

When it first hit the fan...H said that I was paranoid...this women had no evil intent blah..blah..blah...so of course he was not remorseful.

We resolved this by my saying to my H...`I do not care if you agree with me and my reasoning OR NOT... I do not like what you are doing...it hurts me...and if you do it again I will divorce you.`

So that was that.

This was about 4 years ago.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by notonlywords*:
<strong> OK, it was the fact that he could do something behind my back, without telling me. The same thing I did when I had an affair. I "felt" justified (at the time) because he was withholding a portion of himself from me pre-A, which now that I say that, I realize I did not consider him trustworthy THEN because he was very much withdrawn from the marriage. And on the flip side, I was guilty also of withholding a part of myself from HIM....PRE-A...so I was also not trustworthy, and not because of something I did overtly but rather something I did NOT do.... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I gotcha on the withholding part. I don't necessarily view emotional withdrawal as untrustworthy behavior, but I see your point. It is just a difference of classification. Where we diverge is where you equate having an affair with snooping. They just are not morally equivalent. Snooping is not untrustworthy behavior if it is justified, having an affair is never justified and is untrustworthy behavior. See what I mean?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by noodle:
<strong>

To be honest..I really don't even CARE about the game per say..if I had reason to believe that he had a grasp of and dedication to the rules of protection..I would extend far more credibility to his judgement.

In short..you CAN earn more freedom than you will ever steal.

Noodle </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I gotcha, noodle, and that does make a huge difference. I was going to recommend counseling, but that will do no good if the subject is unwilling. Maybe a letter would be effective after all. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ML,
Yes, this is why I feel that a letter is likely the BEST course of action at this time. I have a lot to get said..don't want it to be confrontational..but informative.

I came very uneasily to be agreeable to the idea of reconcile. My personal experiences with men who turn away from what is good and right in favor of low living and slutty behavior bias me very much.

However, I cared for H very much..and did not want to abandon ship until every last stone had been turned over..make sense?

Despite my inhibitions I have sought counsel..not from one source but many..have openned myself and my life and my history to critical eyes. I have journaled until the outside of my hand was raw from rubbing the paper. I have read and purchased more self help books than clothes in the past two years. I have rendered them dog eared and written in the margins. I have listened to sermons and read articles online.

In short..out of small hope I have unzipped myself..stripped off my skin, peeled back my viscera, and smashed my bones in an effort to be self aware.

I have fought the urge to be unfaithfull myself..I have fought the urge to just leave, I have fought the urge to abuse him viciously..and her as well.

So when I say that something has made me uncomfortable..and am dismissed because examining this will ruin his fun ..to have him laughingly..no, mockingly ruffle my hair and say..oh silly girl..

I become aware that he does not know the cost..because he has not yet embraced the price.

He is living well and profitng from my efforts. His only contribution has been to halt overtly bad behaviors such as clubbing. Changing friends at my insistance.

It all comes full circle though, because of my efforts and studies I have outgrown him..and I can not remain in a marriage with a man that I neither trust nor respect.

Mel, I CAN and am ready to move past this point..and so I pause..and wait. I can wait a long time..after all it took me two years of intense effort only to have come this far..but my patience for complete inaction and indifference is not eternal.

So this is weighty, but not urgent. Nothing will happen this week or the next..or the next, you know?

It still needs to be communicated though..because he is very happy just to override my occasional stirrings..I am not willing to be foul enough to be a problem..and it IS silly to threaten divorce over one issue such as online games. Online games are NOT the issue at hand..they are an example and manifestation of what I am trying to address.

I really did almost toss the computor though. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I could see it hit the ground..could almost taste it.

Noodle

Melody,

Yes I see what you mean.....I do agree with you, which is why I could not be very upset with RH as far as the spyware goes. I'm just still not sure it would be right for everyone....it's just the principle of the thing, IF it were being used for no concrete reason.
I don't think Noodle is suspecting her husband of anything, just wants to see in him a willingness to respect her boundaries without having to force him.
I honestly don't know what I would do if in your shoes, and I don't fault you for having used it. If nothing else, it would bring issues to the forefront that needed tackling anyway if a WS or former WS was to get very upset if they knew about spyware being used. I just think very early on, if the FWS knew about spyware, it could be dangerous to recovery. I was far enough along to understand it.

NOW

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by notonlywords*:
<strong> Melody,

Yes I see what you mean.....I do agree with you, which is why I could not be very upset with RH as far as the spyware goes. I'm just still not sure it would be right for everyone....it's just the principle of the thing, IF it were being used for no concrete reason.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I very much agree that it is wrong to spy on someone without just cause. That is a far cry from spying on someone when you do have cause in order to protect yourself. In my H's defense, he has proven to be a very trustworthy man, but I do reserve the right to turn that spyware back on if I ever had an "inkling." Trust, but verify is my new motto. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Shameless bump..still hoping for some advice about the actual letter..that I will be actually writing tonight..and actually posting for critque

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> If I get the thubnail out today..then I can revise tomorrow..then I can have the finished product by Thurs..which is when I need it.

I've been thinking..perhaps because Pep has been beating the plan drum..that my own situation lacks one..we arrived post dday..post NC..and had never separated..so while we sort of had a plan [plan no more sex with other people]..only I have been searching out the plan [plan recovery]..and I'd like to use this as a catalyst...somehow.

Noodle

Noodle,
I don;t have any advice about a letter but I wanted to say I really can relate to this topic. I have tried a few times to get feedback on the very thing.

This is exactly 100% the same thing I am dealing with. It's not that H talks to a female, it's that in some instances I don't like the interaction, I tell him, he says something like "am I gonna have to live with this the rest of my life?". So, it is obviously something he thinks is my problem and it makes me furious!

If I tell him something hurts me or if I cry (rare) he may even call it manipulation. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Lets see, and I'm not meeting his needs because??? But, he doesn't get it. He has put almost zero effort into recovery and I have done like you...read the books, gone to IC, MC (Steve Harley), anti-dep meds, and now I'm on to making me happy. With or without him.

Anyway, i am gonna print this out and maybe someday If I am trying to explain it to him again, I will pull this out because you put it in words sooo nicely! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I think I must be talking chinese or something totally foreign because he just don't get it!

Thanks and GOOD LUCK!

Okay Noodle,

I know I am a bit of a newbie and extremely early in recovery...but I have excellent skills as an editor. I don't have much to offer you other than that, and perhaps an outsider's perspective.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think a letter is in order..first a clarification of boundaries letter [read..plea for comprehension/understanding/change at THIS level..plea that I don't have to pull the trigger].</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This sounds like an excellent outline to me. When I help my DD17 with essays, I tell her to first put something - anything - down on paper. You can edit later, but then at least you have a starting point. A "Clarification of Boundaries" letter should obviously contain boundaries. You might first list your acceptable boundaries. You also stated a need for comprehension, understanding and change. A list of these, also, would certainly be helpful. Throw in an elaboration on each of these items - you've got yourself a letter (or at least a good place to start).


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He doesn't get it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A few days ago, several people posted this remark about Patriot. He sulked a bit, which then turned into frustration and he said "What is IT". I told him I didn't know what IT was, but it was apparent that if several people were noticing that he didn't get IT, then he probably needed to take a look at IT. If he didn't know what IT was, then he should find someone who did. Seek IT out. Figure IT out. I suggested to him that instead of focusing his energy on feeling sorry for himself and being defensive, lay his pride down for a bit and humble himself enough to go back and post to those people and ask them what they saw that he didn't.

I don't know whether you can simply tell him what IT is. Although, you might be able to lead him to others who can.

Froz

<small>[ February 22, 2005, 03:22 PM: Message edited by: frozen1229 ]</small>

P.S. I feel like a complete and utter fool offering you advice. I would delete the post, except then you'd see that I had a post and then deleted it - which could possibly look even more foolish. I think I think waaaayyyyyy too much.
At least it's good for another bump. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<small>[ February 22, 2005, 03:27 PM: Message edited by: frozen1229 ]</small>