Mortarman -

Well, earlier in this thread someone mentioned stoning for adultery in ancient times, and I've seen it mentioned on MB before as a good reason to punish people more severely.

What I've been trying to figure out how to add is that, while I understand the complaints about BS's not having more legal options, WS's still suffer one way or another.

I live in a 50-50 state, so even if H and I decide to D (which we don't plan to at this point), I would get half our assets, but I would still lose my M.

There are a host of other consequences that I pay, and have been paying, (that I accept responsibility for) either way. I'm not asking for sympathy, I'm merely offering the reassurance that I have been punished, and do suffer for my actions.

That's between God, my H, and me, of course, but what I mean is that WS's suffer one way or another, don't worry. Excuse me if this isn't coming out right, but no matter how many times I write it, I don't know how else to put it.

Thank you for your time!

Rose

Rose,

Please dont think I am being harsh. And you are right, your affair is between God, your husband and you. And if your husband has forgiven you, and God has forgiven you...then guess what? That is all in your past. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I do know what you are trying to say though. But, paying internally in how we feel is an emotional/spiritual thing. I was talking about legally/financially in society. And in every other legal/financial contract, there is a penalty for unilaterally breaking the contract off.

Speaking in PURELY a legal sense (not in God's will), a person could have a 50-50 divorce if both parties agreed to end the marriage. But that is not what we are talking about here. We are talking about one party breaking the marriage covenant and contract by having sex with someone that wasnt their spouse. They broke the contract unilaterally. Thus, there shouldnt be a 50-50 split. The one that kept up their end of the contract should be given all of the assets.

If the BS forgives them and remains i nthe marriage, then that person is back in the marriage.

Actually, is every sense, that isnt even true. You cant go back into the marriage because once that person had sex even one time, that marriage contract was broken...with God and legally. It is broken. It is no longer enforceable as a legal contract. For the BS to forgive, that means there is a new marriage, a new contract based on that point on.

In the military, we have penalties for adultery. it is against the law, and we do enforce it. Society needs to also look into what it is doing, and re-establish justice by ensuring that if the BS does not want the WS to come home, then there is legal recourse for the aggrieved party. And the infidels (WS and OP) are punished justly, both legally and financially.

You know what? It wasnt until we went to court and my kids were given to me and taken away fro mmy wife...and she had to pay me $1000 in child support a month, that she woke up. If she had thought that was even a possiblity of happening before she did this, I doubt she would have cheated.

Make the laws stiff, the penalties stiff. This is serious business!! It is having one spouse abuse the other emotionally because of the affair. And it abuses children in so many ways.

Again, the ability for the penalties to be lifted should be based on the grace of the person that upheld the contract...the BS

Mortarman,

I would like to commend you on how you are handling the questions and valid concerns raised by the posters here. Keeping the correct perspective especially where emotional issues such as A are involved is often hard t/d.

I appreciate your application of scriptures. There is a lot more I could say but suffice to say, I agree with most of what you wrote.

Thanks for the clarification of points even when they were directed to some of my posts. I believe you explained them much better.

Freedom of choice? It is a right in many places but is it always the right thing to do? Simple question, hard to answer.

I do agree if legal laws matched closer to the true Biblical laws, we would see a lot less suffering in this world. I am not advocating a dictatorship state but a theocratic one w/b worth considering. That though is a whole 'nother topic. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Bottom line is that a man killed 3 persons. NO one has that right. It wasn't in a war zone but it was a war zone. Does that make sense? Hm..... when killings happen in our own yard, it looks different doesn't it? Imagine what it is like for those where it is a daily part of their lives. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> What about those who contribute to that environment? That is why it is important NOT to enable this type of behavior.

JMHO,
L.

Star, so there are still laws on the books in the States that address infidelity. We don`t have those options available where I live.

I would not legislate sex...anything that two consenting adults do together in private that does not hurt other people is fine by me.

I still think that there should be stronger laws for infidelity that should be enforced.

When my FIL divorced my MIL for an OW he used some fancy footwork to keep his home and his business and all his toys. While she wound up in a dinky little apartment with $25,000...not even enough to carry her through her old age had she lived that long.

It was a travesty. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Had there been strict laws in place perhaps my FIL would not have looked so enticing to the OW. Perhaps SHE would have thought twice had she thought her future would have been in some dinky little apartment with my FIL.

.

Rose,

Great post! There is no way adultery can ever come close to murder. This woman did not deserve to die because she had an affair, if she had one, or even if she had 10 affairs. Nobody had the right to take her life. There is no excuse for murder unless you or someone close to you is being physically threatened yourself..and then only if you are in extreme danger.

This man had no right to harm one hair on this woman's head no matter what his reasons let alone hurt her child. Neither of them deserved what happened. Adultery is not what made this lowlife commit a murder. His own selfishness and poor decisions are the only cause.

I agree with you Rose. Thanks for your post.

Lmh

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Patriot wrote:
"You see, as the BS, you get the opportunity to heal. To move on. It is there for you to grasp."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Patriot,

Please try and remember that an affair's affects on a BS are not limited to emotions and a life change. The WS, via the OP, have been known to share wonderful STDs with the BS. STDs that can, and have, caused death. Cervical cancer comes to mind.

And THAT my friend is not something that one can or should chalk up to easily moving on or an easy opportunity to heal.

Please take it from me, a BS that is given such a disease by way of an affair by their spouse IS LIFE THREATENING as well.

The irresponsibiity of affairs now reach much deeper and can be fatal to the innocent parties - the BS.

Just something to think about.

Jo

<small>[ February 23, 2005, 02:35 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]</small>

Daisy,
I would not legislate sex...anything that two consenting adults do together in private that does not hurt other people is fine by me.

I still think that there should be stronger laws for infidelity that should be enforced.
But infidelity is sex between two consenting adults an dit is not hurting anyone (except emotionally).

Had there been strict laws in place perhaps my FIL would not have looked so enticing to the OW.
How do you explain all the people in jail? There are laws against what they did, yet they went out and comitted the crime anyway.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Chris -CA123:
<strong> Daisy,
.I still think that there should be stronger laws for infidelity that should be enforced.
But infidelity is sex between two consenting adults an dit is not hurting anyone (except emotionally).
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why isn't the emotional hurt worth something? Also isn't there a financial, mental and even physical hurt done in these cases? Yes, the degree of hurt does vary but look at the potential?

The law at this time in many places only looks at the financial aspect. That's what my lawyer told me (CA land of the 50/50 no fault crap). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Obviously the current laws are not enough of a deterrient to stop the A's from happening. Looks like an epedemic. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

L.

Why isn't the emotional hurt worth something?
If you see a movie and cry, should you get money from the director, actors, movie company?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why isn't the emotional hurt worth something?
If you see a movie and cry, should you get money from the director, actors, movie company?

WHAT???! How is that even remotely the same thing? That's worse than comparing apples and oranges. More like comparing a big juicy hunk of beef to a celery stick. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">From daisy 37:
I still think that there should be stronger laws for infidelity that should be enforced. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, Your on the right track, I believe.

Although this can't be a criminal action.....I would be happy to just see infidelity go back to being a "factor" when a spouse Chooses to cheat and then Divorce.

And it should have Some "weight" given to it, as it IS the Breaking of a contract (among other things).

With that said, under No illusion that it would stop this epidemic of A's.

However, it would at least give the BS some type of recourse ....Instead of the position they are now forced into by so many states and their "No Fault" attitudes.

Let's see: my WW chooses to have an A, we get a D due to said A.....(neither of which I wanted or have a vote on).....yet our D is considered NO One's Fault?? Hmmmm
Still don't get that.

There Should be consequences to life.
This Should be one of them.

ON the other hand, No One deserves Death for cheating.
Other penalties perhaps....but not the ultimate one.

Continue on........

"Well I still wonder how she could have become involved with such a weirdo. I cannot believe that someone that far off the beam did not show signs of it."

One of the books I just finished reading (Men Who Can't Love) explains how this sort of male is very good at NOT raising any red flags and getting people to trust him.

Ironically, the book warns that the guy being too good to be true sort of IS the red flag.
He comes across as a woman's dream guy, SO Mr. Right, until he gets what he wants and moves on.
AND he is way more sensitive and caring than your typical male and will talk a lot about how badly other males treat women (which helps the woman assume he's not that sort).

My daughters and I are probably the only ones who've ever seen my WH get violent. The family counselor only met him twice and says he is most likely sociopathic. But really nobody else sees that he has a problem. Most people describe him as:
'sweet', 'funny', 'sensitive', 'charming'...

Also, there are guys who simply snap, especially when they are faced with possible exposure that they are leading a secret life they don't want known. This was discussed on the Oprah show the other day. And IMO this is probably what happened with this guy.

<small>[ February 23, 2005, 03:36 PM: Message edited by: meremortal ]</small>

duplicate post.

<small>[ February 23, 2005, 04:28 PM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Chris -CA123:
<strong> Why isn't the emotional hurt worth something?
If you see a movie and cry, should you get money from the director, actors, movie company? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Chris,

Now I gotta say I usually respect your posts but really how could that be the same? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Going to the movies and crying ain't the same as all the heartache I went through with the A thingy. Not even in the same league except for using the same brand of tissue.

My point is that the A causes damage in many areas of our lives yet the law focuses on 1. This leads many to believe they get off scott free from all the other damage they have done.

I am sure you recall hearing about the OPs taunts that the A problems are NOT their fault. Yet they use the family $$ and are emotionally draining to the BS and family. Some cases they even harass and abuse the family in a physical/mental way. But they don't suffer any consistent consquences. In fact, some pride themselves in doing it again and again.

Damm, now I got tissue expenses plus voice activated recorder, PI expenses, etc. Not to speak of all those books and MC time, ADs, doctor visits, more daycare, etc...... wish this stuff was at least tax deductible for the BS and added to the WS/OPs income as a 1099 (marked as quesitonnable income). LOL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

JMHO,
L.

Yeah, I gotta agree, I don’t follow your reasoning Chris.

Threats are illegal….yet purely an emotional reaction to a verbal action. Should those be taken out of the Criminal Code?

Peeping Toms…..If you get emotional about someone pleasuring themselves while watching you in your house that is that “acceptable” as it merely evokes an emotional reaction from the victim?

Howabout stalking?…..so what if someone follows you everywhere.

Harassing phone calls?

Having said all that, I agree this belongs in the civil arena. It is patently unfair that I must now pay half the equity in our home and cabin as well as child support to a woman that abandoned our home and injected her poison into another family home.

***But infidelity is sex between two consenting adults an dit is not hurting anyone (except emotionally).***

I submit that adulterous sex is between two consenting adults AND at least one, if not two, other adults who did NOT consent and who did NOT wish to be involved. Anyone whose spouse sleeps with someone else is at risk for life-changing and life-threatening STDs. That DOES hurt people BIG TIME and NO ONE has the right to put an unconsenting person in this position.

And even if they don't catch an STD, the emotional damage cannot be dismissed. It never really goes away and can easily destroy an entire family. I'm sorry to see you just dismiss it this way.

I heard somewhere that some U.S. state legislature was thinking of introducing the concept of Gross Marital Misconduct -- aka "cheating" -- as grounds for divorce *and* as grounds for punitive financial settlements for the pain and suffering caused by said Gross Marital Misconduct.

I would love to see this happen. You can't stop people who are determined to cheat in their marriages, but you could at least require them to pay for the damages when they do. It might send the message that married people have no right whatsoever to harm their partners this way. If you want to date, then stay single. You are NOT entitled to both a mate and a date.
Mulan

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by noodle:

You say that with such authority, such conviction. It certainly has warranted such in the past..and presently in other areas of the world. If you steal my car..you'll see the inside of a jail..if you unravel my home..I guess I wipe my tears and hope for better days? Honestly, I agree with you..but your statement lacks..argument.[/b]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you wish to use the past as justification, then I can demonstrate many inconceivable forms of justice practiced in the past, just as I can argue that the countries which still practice these forms of punishment are socially and technologically stunted. I don't see why it is necessary to defend what is pretty self-evident. Would we have laws instituted to punish every case of lying, every case of deceit, every case of immoral behaviour known to man? The courts would grind to a halt with cases of "he said/she said". The government should retain itself only to those matters of conduct which affect the infringement of individual rights. This is not to state that laws cannot be instituted relegating adultery to civil law, penalized by fines, etc., as we could argue that marriage is a contract, and government does step in to mediate matters of contractual obligations, but certainly not anything greater than civil.

duplicate post.

Mortarman,

I usually post on the EN board but there was a link to this thread on the EN’s board. I am specifically posting to you because I found a number of your thoughts intriguing (though I hope to get other’s input and opinions as well).

First, let me just mention that I am an atheist. I say that because I want to talk about my understanding of religious matters and I want to ask for your patience if I get something about religious teachings wrong. I am certainly no religious scholar!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Obviously, the WS broke a legal contract, and the OP helped. So, there should be legal sanctions against both. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The problem with this is that the contract is fairly non-specific. Every ‘enforceable’ contract I’ve ever read spells things out.

I looked up my marriage license (contract) from the state of Arizona (for reference, yours might be different) and what it says is:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> These presents are to authorize and license any individual authorized to solemnize marriages within the state of Arizona to join in marriage <H’s name> age <H’s age> and <my name> age <my age> and certify the same according to law.

Witness my hand and official seal this <date>. <signature of clerk of the court>

I do hereby certify that <H’s name> and <my name> were joined in marriage by me at <location> in the county of <county> State of Arizona on the <day> of <month> 1996.

<Our signatures and the notarized signature of the man who married us> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That’s it.

No where in there is there any reference to being faithful or anything else. As atheists, we weren’t married in a church and wrote our own vows. We never promised to love, honor, obey or until death do us part.

If marriage is to become an enforceable, legal contract, then wouldn’t we need to be somewhat specific about what actions constitute a breach of contract? Isn’t that what a prenuptial agreement is for?

I think the only real ‘legal’ part of the contract that would be breached would be if one or the other of us tried to enter into another marriage contract (bigamy). I’m not convinced that fidelity is adequately spelled out to pass a legal enforcement clause.

I’m not saying it’s a bad idea, I’m just mentioning that what you ‘sign’ to make it legal isn’t really anything like a ‘normal’ contract. I suppose you could take vows as a verbal promise that is made in the presence of witnesses, though.

Moving on…

You spoke a lot about God’s law and how adultery and divorce is against God’s law. I’m not sure if this is accurate, but my impression is that you advocate for legal and civil penalties for breaking God’s law.

My question is why did you neglect to mention more stringent spiritual consequences for breaking God’s law? It seems to me, that it would be more appropriate for Churches and religious institutions to impose penalties on the faithful than the state.

Let me try to explain using a somewhat unrelated example.

My sister and her H are both Catholic. My BIL was previously married in the Catholic church and was civilly divorced. He has 2 children from his prior marriage. During their pre-marital counseling, a priest indicated that there were some circumstances under which the Catholic church can and will annul a previous marriage (whether or not children were born of that marriage) and that my BIL’s previous marriage met the criteria for an application of annulment. They were also advised that the annulment process was quite lengthy and could take from 5-10 years. Against the priest’s advice, they decided to enter into a civil marriage with my BIL’s promise that he would vigorously pursue an annulment. Because the were not married ‘in the church’ my sister and BIL are sanctioned against participating in certain sacraments until the situation is resolved. Sadly, my BIL decided to stop pursuing the annulment after a few years (it seems the priest’s advice for her to wait was wise in that respect).

I don’t know very much about Christianity or other denominations (I wouldn’t know about this if it hadn’t happened to my poor sister) but I can’t help but wonder what kind of sanctions churches impose on those who break God’s law?

It is my understanding that not all Christian denominations have the same types of sanctions against those who choose to remarry after a divorce. Have stronger sanctions about being remarried 'in the Church' been discussed by any of those denominations or am I flat out wrong because I don't know that much about it? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Should people who commit adultery be excommunicated? Should they be punished by the Church? Should they be given penance in the form of financial sanctions (increased tithes) or perhaps compelled to perform some sort of public works in order to remain a part of that church? Why should civil law which affects those of different or even no religious beliefs be altered with respect to a particular religions interpretation of God’s law? Why can’t the churches take more responsibility and impose harsher sanctions in that area?

I am not trying to start a religious war or insult those who follow religious teachings. I suppose I’m just perplexed as to why I seem to see a lot of advocacy for civil, legal, remedies and not much of a description of what spiritual bodies (churches, spiritual leaders) are doing in this area.

Mys

Hear, hear on that new legislation. I am all for that.

Like I said before, the military does it right. Does it stop adultery from happening? Well, not really. Maybe soem that were thinking about it but thought about the penalties and stopped. But the biggest deal was the financial penalties (loss of pay). Also, the military was able to order the spouse who was cheating to cease talking to or seeing the person they were cheating with. I would love for a BS to be able to go before a jusge and have that judge order the WS to not see the OP. And if they did? Well, just like in the military...that means jail time. Because in court, that would be contempt of court.

One thing I noticed on later posts on this thread and I want to make clear...I in no way am saying that a BS should murder anyone. This guy should definitely head to death row! My point is God even says in Leviticus that you are stupid the cheat with someone else's spouse, because the emotions that are inflamed during this may cause that BS to come kill you. And that may be wrong, but for the WS or OP...doesnt matter. They are dead anyway.

I do best with analogies, so let me give you onw to get my point acrossed. A 25 year old woman decides to walk in SouthEast Washington, D.C. (very poor area...where most of the drug deals and murders happen in DC). She is walking down the street, alone at 3a.m. She has on a very revealing dress, and expensive jewelry. She has all of her credit cards in her purse, as well as the paycheck she just cashed for $2500.

Well, you see what is about to happen. The woman gets robbed, raped, and murdered. Now, someone tell me if this woman deserved that. She absolutely did not deserve that and those guys that did it should go straight to the electric chair (forget about lethal injection).

But, did she have any part in that? Was she smart about her choices? Did she put herself in a situation for something like that to happen? Is she culpable for the things done to her?

I say yes! Her stupidity led to her murder. She didnt ask to be robbed, raped and murdered...but she sure as heck invited the robbers, rapists and murderers to have access to her. She set the conditions that allowed this to happen.

And so, if you play around with someone's wife, and then the guy comes back from being overseas with the military...and he hunts you down and murders you...did you deserve it? Probably not. Were you smart? Definitely not? Did you create the conditions for your own murder? Absolutely!

In His arms.