PS The biggest problem I have with exposure, knowing my H, is that I am pretty certain it will likely backfire.

He is the type that would say: OK people, I may have gone about it the wrong way, but bottom line I love OW, and I take full responsability for what I have done - even if the result means 'undoing' a family! He is the type prepared to be treated as an egotistical s-o-b, etc. etc. but if OW is ready to stand by him, he can conquer the world-type of a guy. Exposure may be what they are looking for - the more the better - and together they will deal with it! It's what I call the 'us against the world' syndrome.

And the fact that people won't really care - in this day and age - (other than feel sorry for me, maybe, which I don't need, thank you very much)

At this point, I do expect him to leave, and right now I do think exposure will accelerate the process - I am trying to buy time because I can't deal with it - besides hoping for a miracle!

I tell myself - where have I been all these years? How naive can anybody be? That's where I am at. I need to get passed this, I know, I know, I know.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lunamare:
PS The biggest problem I have with exposure, knowing my H, is that I am pretty certain it will likely backfire. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your "certainty" is what has got you this far in this trainwreck, Luna. What more do you have to lose? He has already said he is leaving you for the OW.

You have an offchance to SAVE your marriage and you are settling for just "buying a little time" until he leaves for good. Why would you CHOOSE to settle for that?

Your inaction has got you..... what? NOTHING, except a H who is even more determined to vacate the marriage. He doesn't like you better because of your compliance. So what have you got for all your unquestioned compliance? I see nothing you have gained. It sure doesn't attract him to you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He is the type that would say: OK people, I may have gone about it the wrong way, but bottom line I love OW, and I take full responsability for what I have done - even if the result means 'undoing' a family! He is the type prepared to be treated as an egotistical s-o-b, etc. etc. but if OW is ready to stand by him, he can conquer the world-type of a guy. Exposure may be what they are looking for - the more the better - and together they will deal with it! It's what I call the 'us against the world' syndrome.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But they have already decided that. He is moving on. Its not like you are going to save your marriage if you do nothing. That is already done deal. You are going to lose your marriage if you continue doing what you are doing.

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results.

<small>[ March 02, 2005, 05:07 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

MelodyLane,

I know it sounds stupid, and it may be just wishful thinking, but H has been known to say things he didn't mean afterall, just to see my reaction. I don't know if this time he is serious, or not. My feeling is that this time it might just be true, but I don't know. I am taking a risk. If I am lowkey about it and don't overreact, I want to see where it goes. Believe me, it's not easy for me to not overreact - I don't think I am avoiding anything - I am going against the grain.

He works with the OW, and that, I know, he is not prepared to change. (if you play with fire, you will get burned - don't I know it.) Today, H was honest and told me he is meeting OW this afternoon at a restaurant (because the school is closed this week). I am well aware of the project he is working on, and the progress. Believe it or not, I know for a fact his work is extremely important to him, and he needs to find a solution quick. I decided not to overreact and treat the meeting as any other meetings he may have with others (except I felt like screaming). By not overreacting, H opened up and actually further discussed the progress of his project, where it was blocking, and confirmed the urgency to resolve it and consult OW. If there is any hanky panky going on, it will not happen this afternoon. My H's lies, at least to date, have been by omission only.

My other feeling is H may be monitoring my reactions and his own impulse control. On my side, would I be able to really get passed an A, or would I constantly remind him and make him "continually pay" for it? What would our R be like, we knew how it was before an A, but after an A? On his side, would he really be able to pull back from PA and be able to maintain a "working relationship" with OW?

H began the A with the intention that it be a "secret", he compartmentalized the two relationships. Once I was aware of A, he can't seem to be able to do both at the same time, which is why he says he needs to separate first, but we haven't yet. Until we do, in his mind he can't seem to go back to a PA with the OW (besides the fact that she needs to work things out with her H).

I know, you can say, look at where "your thinking" has gotten you.

The A has changed our R, I still think (hope??) despite what H is "saying", whether or not he "means it".

In the meantime, I am trying to understand PLAN A as best as I can and apply it. My H seems to be in a "withdrawl" state, and I don't sometimes manage well the uncertainty of it all and the "distance" between us, but overall it's been quiet on the homefront (quiet just before hell breaks loose?? maybe).

I know for a fact, in a week's time H will be gone for 2 and half weeks (away from both the OW and his family). I hope this gives him the distance to figure out what he really wants to do, and this goes for me as well.

These are my thoughts. I am probably being "blind", avoiding to take actions, etc. etc. and you all may be right, because you can see down the road because you have travelled it, maybe one day I may regret not doing what some of you are suggesting I do. But I am where I am, and can't be what I am not. Whatever I have in me, I either have it or I don't.

But please believe me when I say I really really appreciate you all challenging me, and warning me, and wanting me to suffer the least possible, wanting me to give it my best short at saving M.

Thank you, again and again for your concern.

PS I am trying really hard to tap into the "inner" resources that have helped me in past "hard times", most importantly, recover my sense of balance (which I feel I haven't yet).

Update,

I saw a change in H's attitude towards me this morning - in the positive sense. He seemed to be in a less "withdrawl" state since days. Is it how it might feel when the fog lifts for 2 minutes. I am wondering what's up?

I will keep you informed about how long it lasts.

Even though H works with OW (therefore a NC is not possible), I am wondering if EA is evolving, to what, I don't know, or, it just might be my wishful thinking.

Luna,

Your last post sounded much more like you were thinking about things lucidly and making your own decisions on how to act, rather than simply feeling sad and overwhelmed and therefore just reacting to your husbands decisions.

It sounds like you are moving foward in the stages of this mess and that you have a plan, that is Plan A. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Glad to see this change in the tone of your email.

The chinese have a saying "Out of chaos, comes opportunity." Maybe this painful ordeal will provide a new opportunity for you to re-establish that balance you say you have been missing for some time.

I hope you have a nice day.

I posted before reading your update.

That's good news. If I have learned one thing over the past year that I have been in this painful ordeal: It's a Roller Coaster!! Don't feel discouraged if tomorrow he seems to withdrawl again, just hang in there and keep giving those LU's.

Update,

Continuing to be "quite" on the home front.

I believe at this point H is evaluating situation. He works with OW. I believe he is attempting to see if he could actually revert back to a working R with her (after a PA), and also evaluating how strongly he feel about her (enough to ruin a M!). Major feat! Odds are against us.

In the meantime, doing Plan A (mostly trying to avoid LBs) as best as I can. Am tempted to do "something" about distance between us (EN), but I know nothing would work at this time, and I may even make situation worst.

This also gives me time to think about what I want. Do I really want M to work that badly? With H mostly being a Taker right now, it's making me wonder.

I do sometimes have trouble sleeping, with knots in my stomach, but mostly I try and calm myself and take a "wait and see" approach.

I know I don't see LIFE the way I used to, that's for sure. Couldn't have imagined how many triggers are actually out there to deal with! I do feel that life is definitely less brighter than before.

Update,

I don't think anyone will be surprised.

Had a big argument with H last night. Did everything wrong - I actually tried to reason with H! - can't remember exactly which ones, but for sure, did do LBing and probably cancelled out PLAN A efforts up to now.

It is really hard dealing with someone that you really feel is not "there", says extremely hurtful things to you, as if you're not worth anything, doesn't care about anything else except his "need" to be with the OW, while totally ignoring impact on others. I don't have such a "thick" skin.

I know, no one can really help me except myself! And right now, I don't feel like helping myself, I am struggling hard (ex. thinking of my 2 boys) to give me a reason to keep afloat, because I really do feel like I am drowing in sorrow and pain, and don't trust myself in this state.

Bye.

Luna, I am sorry you feel so bad, but no one can help you except God and yourself. And since you aren't willing to help yourself, I don't imagine that God will help you against your will. I am sad to see that you have just given up.

You are certainly well within your rights, but I will point out that divorce is often just as painful as recovery. [and alot more expensive!]

To MelodyLane,

H doesn't want anything to do with recovery. That's the whole problem. It takes two for recovery to start. I may be willing, and have told H so, but he is NOT. I don't bug him about it, but he is adamant in his position - he intends to move out, and there is nothing I can do, really. Until he moves, will put effort into PLAN A, when he moves a total PLAN B may be difficult because of finances and kids, but I will certainly minimize any contact when he does move out.

Luna -- you are doing exactly what your H and his OW are counting on. You are helplessly rolling over and playing dead, letting them order you around and doing nothing to stand up and protect yourself or your family.

***H doesn't want anything to do with recovery. That's the whole problem.***

No, it isn't. Again -- you are doing nothing but helplessly wringing your hands and waiting for HIM to make everything right. Luna, he is not going to do that. If you want a chance of things changing, it is now up to YOU.

***It takes two for recovery to start. I may be willing, and have told H so, but he is NOT. I don't bug him about it, but he is adamant in his position - he intends to move out, and there is nothing I can do, really.***

He's got you convinced of that, doesn't he? Well, you are playing right into his hand as long as you believe you are helpless.

***Until he moves, will put effort into PLAN A,***

Do this if you can -- but you've been at it for a while and all it has done is make your WH into a much more comfortable cake-eater while utterly destroying what's left of your self-respect.

***when he moves a total PLAN B may be difficult because of finances and kids, but I will certainly minimize any contact when he does move out.***

Why wait until HE gets around to moving out? Newsflash -- he may not intend to move out at all. Has he actually DONE anything about packing up, getting a place, anything like that? Guess what -- holding the threat of moving out over your head keeps you paralyzed with fear and utterly helpless. And that's exactly what he wants. As long as he can cake-eat and keep Luna silenced and walking eggshells, that's what he'll do. Why bother to move?

Another newsflash: He is almost certainly lying to his OW about moving out, too. What do you think would happen if you AGREED with him that yes, he should move out, and he should do it ASAP, and you will not stand in his way.

Take control. Stop letting WH run the show and destroy what's left of your life and your self-respect. Tell him to move out NOW if that's what he wants. Let him go. Then go to Plan B.

I guarantee you, Luna, if you do this he will get the shock of his life. It will be like throwing a swimming pool full of ice-cold water on his cozy fantasy world. If anything is going to wake him up, it will be YOU taking control of this situation -- but helplessly standing by like you have been is 100% guaranteed to fail.
Mulan

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lunamare:
<strong> To MelodyLane,

H doesn't want anything to do with recovery. That's the whole problem. It takes two for recovery to start. I may be willing, and have told H so, but he is NOT.
I don't bug him about it, but he is adamant in his position - he intends to move out, and there is nothing I can do, really. Until he moves, will put effort into PLAN A, when he moves a total PLAN B may be difficult because of finances and kids, but I will certainly minimize any contact when he does move out. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">nonononono, Plan A is FOR YOU, not for him. He can't do Plan A, that is what YOU DO in order to hasten the end of his affair. Plan A is not a plan of "recovery," it is a plan designed to BREAK UP THE AFFAIR. Breaking up the affair is the best you can hope for now. He will have no motivation to work on your marriage until the affair ends. And the affair won't end until you give him motivation to do so.

Luna, if you aren't willing to do a damn thing to save your marriage, why are you here? Why not just go file for divorce?

A "partial" Plan B will be a waste of your time, because it defeats the entire purpose. And by the time he moves out, the chances of divorce go way up anyway. You have a much better chance of saving your marriage while he is THERE.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lunamare:
<strong> I don't bug him about it, but he is adamant in his position - he intends to move out, and there is nothing I can do, really. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Gee, where have we heard of a WS who was "adamant in his position?" And how many of them CHANGED that position once the proper motivation was introduced? THEY ALL SAY THAT!

Of course, there is something you can do, you won't do it.

Title of this thread

"Help with PLAN A"

Plan A is all of the following:

>>meeting ENs when possible

>>honest expressions of emotional impact of the affair to the WS

>>avoiding LBs (teaching, preaching, argueing, whining, clingy behaviors)

>>exposure of the A to the world to make the affair less attractive without secrecy

>>setting a time limit of plan A and preparing for Plan B

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

YOU are not IN Plan A ---> because you are not doing Plan A steps. Therefore asking for help with Plan A is .... false advertising.

You are avoiding Plan A.

Pep

<small>[ March 10, 2005, 07:26 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

luna,

We are all but BEGGING you to buy in to the MB plan.

Every day you stand by doing nothing is a wasted day you spend in needless pain. You are moving neither forwards or backwards.

You are going to have to be a much stronger person to face life without your husband. You'll be forced to when you are alone. Why not "grow some balls" and get stronger and proactive in an effort to save your marriage?

Be proactive. Allow people here to help you help yourself. It's difficult to sit on the sidelines and watch you flounder. It's a bit like watching a stalled car on a railroad crossing, knowing something terrible is going to happen and not being able to help.

Re-read Pep's last post. Get into Plan A, for without Plan A, there is little chance of a successful Plan B. You have received such great advice throughout your "visit" to this forum. Do you stay for pity, or advice you can use?

Poop, or get off the commode.

Best wishes,
SD

<small>[ March 10, 2005, 11:45 PM: Message edited by: shattered dreams ]</small>

LM
Every recovering FBS on these boards was in a situation as bad or worse thanyou are right now.

And all of us spent some time looking at the tools before us, but doing nothing but wallowing in self pity.

But we all decided to take some responsibility for fixing a broken situation.

If you decide to do that: Harleys books, this site and WE can help you in this winnable fight.

If you do not, nobody can help you.

You think recovering/recovered FBS ACCIDENTALLY got here ?

Be the Mom your kids need, and the wife your WH needs to save him from himself. Pick up the tools and FIGHT BACK in a proven way.

We are ITCHING to help you, but you won't help yourself. You're dying of thirst and we are holding out water but you sob and shake, and turn you rhead away rather than DRINK IT.

* sigh *

* Almighty God, we pray that you INSPIRE our sister Lunamare with a passion to recover the marriage YOU blessed, Lord, that the lord of the earth would take away from her.

Empower her mind, heart and arm with your might and righteousness to do the right thing at this time of evil attack.

Bless her WONDERFUL COUNSELLOR with your wisdom and bravery that she may see a new dawn lit with a recovered marriage, and renewed Godly self respect.

And guide us here on MB Lord that we support YOUR will in her case, and ALL cases.

In Jesus Christ's Holy Name we pray

Amen *

<small>[ March 11, 2005, 01:27 AM: Message edited by: b0b pure* ]</small>

Back to top.

Lunamare, How are you today?

Dear MelodyLane, Mulan, Pepperband, Shattered Dreams, Bob Pure,

Noted your comments following my last post. I need to tell you how much I appreciate your attempts at getting me to "see" the light. I know I am exaperating you all.

In my last post, I didn't give you details of the "argument". I would like your opinion on how things went.

H was supposed go to a meeting. He got in really late. I asked what had happened. Well, nothing, the meeting had ended as scheduled and he just had to see the OW, met to have a coffee, all said in a "as a matter of fact".

I decided to let him know that he was stepping boundaries here, and that this was not acceptable to me, if he thought I would sit at home while he was having a tête-à-tête with OW. To which he replied that this was up to me: so, I gathered, his being "open" about it is all about putting pressure on me to 'amicably' discuss our separation. To force me to see 'reality'. If it was up to him, he says he didn't feel like coming home that night (but he did).

It looks to me that we are 'positioning' ourselves at opposite poles. I don't know if that's good. He wants to move quickly, I say we are 'skipping' stages: meaning, we haven't given our R our best shot, before a 'separation'. (I know, I can't keep him from leaving, but it will not be with my blessing: sticking to my position that our R should be given a shot at recovery. Am I being too rigid?) ... but he says he doesn't want to put the other R on the 'backburner' to work on ours.

When H walked the dog, I decided to give the OW a call. Told her more or less what I thought: ex. what's up with breaking up a family? etc. etc. I don't know if it was a good idea, but I wanted her to know this was not OK with me.

Anyway, I decided not to tell H about my call (I figured I would hear about it from H if OW decided to tell him).

Yesterday, I also decided to call OW's H, wanting to confirm 'facts'. He did supposedly agree to keep our call 'confidential' but will hear about if not. It felt really weird talking to a complete stranger with whom there was basically a 'connection' -we both were dealing with betrayal from our 'loved ones' at opposite ends. OW and her H apparently have a home in the country and an apartment in town. So, even though until recently they were both staying at the apt. together, it was becoming too painful. Yes, he was aware of A. They decided to take time apart, and given the availability, they can easily do that (unlike me and my H). This basically told me that the OW was now 'available' and somehow this will put pressure on H to leave (pressure both from OW and\or the temptation that she is available). Didn't think this was any good news. I was hoping to hear that they were also wanting their M to recover. Theirs was a 27 year M! but, OW's H is really 'down' and in 'shock'.

Anyway, when I got home last night, H confronted me about my call to the OW, about how OW felt being portrayed at the 'responsible' one and being blamed for what is happening. H proceeded to defend her wanting to take all the blame, but eventually had to admit that she had a 'choice' in it as well. I didn't think the exchange went as badly as the previous night. He again made his position clear, and actually took it further and basically explained how he saw us all working it out: it basically confirmed to me up to what point he was in fantasyland. I actually managed to have him admit to some of the less positive ossible outcomes: that yes, with the OW, there were no guarantees either, it may end up not working out, that he may end up living alone, etc. which seemed to me he had not actually thought of before.

My position: feelings about the OW or me may change over time. Before turning "our world" upside down, I let him know that I thought our R is still solid, but that it needs to be worked on, and that I was not prepared to be a 'yesman'.

This time, however, I felt we each heard each other's point of view, and decided to agree to disagree. More importantly, I got a chance to see what his 'solutions' to the problem were: fantasyland. I am hoping that by actually verbalizing it, he will at one point see it himself. I keep pitching for my 'simpler' solution. Take one step back, and let's work on our R first, before considering 'separation' - which means him 'putting distance' with the OW. I thought this is part of PLAN A: reminding him that our M is not lost, avoiding LB, but trying to be honest at the same time hoping H will reconsider ending A.

Nothing has really changed, I think, but at least we are talking, and he has not yet 'walked out the door' as he claims he can do at any time.

Sorry for being so long-winded.

PS Thanks for asking Ahuman. I am doing "better".