Bringing this back up to the top -- Luna, you go, girl! Gotta work now but I will post more later.
Mulan

Hi Luna--you do sound better.

Just a few points:

Lunamare posted:***
I know, I can't keep him from leaving, but it will not be with my blessing: sticking to my position that our R should be given a shot at recovery. Am I being too rigid?) ...

***

You HAVE to be rigid--otherwise your WH is going to convince you that he can go on having a R w/OW and they can invite you and the boys over for a barbeque!! Yes BE RIGID--your marriage deserves a chance. WH made YOU the promise at the alter in front of his family and friends not the OW!! He promised YOU and You are delivering on your promise to protect and honor him.
Protect him from make rash decisions, protect him from giving up on his family....on his own promises.

As to the fantasyland--has he imagined the actual consequences of leaving his family?

As he thought about his boys being raised by another man? Has he imagined you going on in your own life? Or does he think you will just sit back and wait and see what boundaries HE wants in the R after he is gone?

lunamare

He's committed to a bad decision he's made. Look for him to defend it at every turn. To do otherwise would require him to admit to doing a very wrong thing. WS's are typically adamant about defending their erroneous ways.

Now that you've exposed to OW and OW's H, how about his parents? Is he close to a brother or sister? Expose to them as well. Be sure and let them know you'd love to have their assistance in your effort to save your marriage. How about their workplace? Are you ready for that? Some workplaces will be adamantly against workplace "romance" while others are tolerant.

Be prepared to face ugly outbursts and attacks from your WH. He may do this to try to force you to ugly retaliation; ie, love busters. Don't bite, don't get sucked in. WS's will do this just to piss you off, get you angry, in order to "remind" themselves you are the "enemy". OP is wonderful, and you are a thorn in his side. Helps him justify his actions.

It seems you are starting to move in the right direction, so a hearty pat on the back to you. Keep reading, keep posting, keep believing in yourself, and you'll get through this.

Best wishes,
SD

***H was supposed go to a meeting. He got in really late. I asked what had happened. Well, nothing, the meeting had ended as scheduled and he just had to see the OW, met to have a coffee, all said in a "as a matter of fact".***

How nasty and cold and cruel of him to say this. He is like a child testing the waters to see how far Mommy will let him go. A parent-child relationship in marriage is very destructive -- it simply cannot work.

As long as you stand there and allow him to throw things like this in your face, he will assume that you are just going to accept it.

***I decided to let him know that he was stepping boundaries here, and that this was not acceptable to me, if he thought I would sit at home while he was having a tête-à-tête with OW. To which he replied that this was up to me:***

Clearly it is not up to you. He is a grown man. If he wants to date, you cannot stop him. But you CAN remove yourself from the vicinity of this outrageous disrespect.

***so, I gathered, his being "open" about it is all about putting pressure on me to 'amicably' discuss our separation. To force me to see 'reality'. If it was up to him, he says he didn't feel like coming home that night (but he did).***

Then tell him he does not have to come home if he does not want to. He is a grown man and you are not his Mommy.

As I've said before, though: He is manipulating and bullying you into going along with this because he really wants BOTH of you. You can be sure that he is playing the same manipulation game with OW.

***It looks to me that we are 'positioning' ourselves at opposite poles. I don't know if that's good.***

Well, of course it's good! You want a real marriage! He wants you to sit home and wait for him while he goes out on dates! Whaddya think!!!

***He wants to move quickly, I say we are 'skipping' stages: meaning, we haven't given our R our best shot, before a 'separation'. (I know, I can't keep him from leaving, but it will not be with my blessing:***

Of course it won't be with your blessing. And ask him why the hell he thinks you would give your blessing to destroying your family? Sorry, you are NOT going to ease his conscience for him. He has to live with this on his own.

***sticking to my position that our R should be given a shot at recovery. Am I being too rigid?) ... but he says he doesn't want to put the other R on the 'backburner' to work on ours.***

Well, *my* first thought on hearing this would be *[censored] off and die, you and your girlfriend both, now get the hell out of my sight,* but that is not MB advice so let me think again:

Luna, as long as you are willing to stick around for this outrageous emotional abuse he will go right on doing it. He wants both a wife and a girlfriend and he thinks he's found a way to have them -- all he has to do is bully *you.* That's all this is. Don't make it any more complicated than it is.

***When H walked the dog, I decided to give the OW a call. Told her more or less what I thought: ex. what's up with breaking up a family? etc. etc. I don't know if it was a good idea, but I wanted her to know this was not OK with me.***

This is not usually advised at MB, but I have to say: You go, girl! What did she say?

***Anyway, I decided not to tell H about my call (I figured I would hear about it from H if OW decided to tell him).***

Did he say anything?

***Yesterday, I also decided to call OW's H, wanting to confirm 'facts'.***

Good for you.

***He did supposedly agree to keep our call 'confidential' but will hear about if not. It felt really weird talking to a complete stranger with whom there was basically a 'connection' -we both were dealing with betrayal from our 'loved ones' at opposite ends. OW and her H apparently have a home in the country and an apartment in town. So, even though until recently they were both staying at the apt. together, it was becoming too painful. Yes, he was aware of A. They decided to take time apart, and given the availability, they can easily do that (unlike me and my H). This basically told me that the OW was now 'available' and somehow this will put pressure on H to leave (pressure both from OW and\or the temptation that she is available). Didn't think this was any good news. I was hoping to hear that they were also wanting their M to recover. Theirs was a 27 year M! but, OW's H is really 'down' and in 'shock'.***

Did you tell him about this site?

***Anyway, when I got home last night, H confronted me about my call to the OW, about how OW felt being portrayed at the 'responsible' one and being blamed for what is happening. H proceeded to defend her wanting to take all the blame, but eventually had to admit that she had a 'choice' in it as well. I didn't think the exchange went as badly as the previous night. He again made his position clear, and actually took it further and basically explained how he saw us all working it out: it basically confirmed to me up to what point he was in fantasyland. I actually managed to have him admit to some of the less positive ossible outcomes: that yes, with the OW, there were no guarantees either, it may end up not working out, that he may end up living alone, etc. which seemed to me he had not actually thought of before.***

Like I said: Don't make this any more complicated than it is. He wants both a wife *and* a girlfriend. That's all this is.

***My position: feelings about the OW or me may change over time. Before turning "our world" upside down, I let him know that I thought our R is still solid, but that it needs to be worked on, and that I was not prepared to be a 'yesman'.***

Luna -- your relationship is anything but "solid" when one partner is acting like this. You cannot be married by yourself.

***This time, however, I felt we each heard each other's point of view, and decided to agree to disagree.***

Sorry, but this makes my skin crawl. You will "agree to disagree" on whether or not it's okay for your husband to date other women? Did I hear you correctly?

You are trying to handle an insane situation with logic, and expecting him to respond logically. It won't work. It's like thinking the drug-addicted criminal won't rob you if you are nice to him.

***More importantly, I got a chance to see what his 'solutions' to the problem were: fantasyland.***

You've got that right!

***I am hoping that by actually verbalizing it, he will at one point see it himself.***

It's a start, but don't count on it. It's like trying to get an alchoholic to stop drinking with a polite explanation of the damage alcohol can do.

***I keep pitching for my 'simpler' solution. Take one step back, and let's work on our R first, before considering 'separation' - which means him 'putting distance' with the OW. I thought this is part of PLAN A: reminding him that our M is not lost, avoiding LB, but trying to be honest at the same time hoping H will reconsider ending A.***

I think most people here will tell you that it is going to take the cold hard shock of a very dark Plan B to even *begin* to get through to this man. He is walking around all smug and smirking with his girlfriend on his arm and his wife in his back pocket, and so far you have given him nothing but reassurances that you will just accept this.

***Nothing has really changed, I think, but at least we are talking, and he has not yet 'walked out the door' as he claims he can do at any time.***

He doesn't want to walk out the door. He wants his wife to sit home and keep house for him while he goes out with his girlfriend. That's all.

Please be prepared for Plan B. Logic and courtesy are fine in Plan A, but do not think they are going to change anything here. In his fantasy life, hearing polite protests from you only reinforces to him that you will not leave and you will not throw him out and it's WORKING!

Be Prepared.
Mulan

lunamare... some tips on Plan A... they were posted to an unfortunate fellow on here, but you can apply them as they might apply to you....

################################################

Plan A is about taking actions to help end the affair. (Exposure)

Plan A is about self-improvement. Changing those things about YOU that were not condusive to a healthy marriage. LoveBuster's is the number one thing to eliminate COMPLETELY. No more Angry Outbursts, Disrespectful Judgements, etc.

Plan A is about appearing (no matter how hard it is) to be strong, self confident and able to "deal" with the A in a pro-active manner.

Plan A is empowering yourself by taking actions in self-improvement.

Plan A is done without informing the WS that you are doing it. WS's have no plan. You are empowered because you do have a plan.

Plan A is about NOT constantly confronting and pressuring the WS into relationship talks.

Plan A is NOT about telling your spouse "I Love You" all the time.

Plan A is NOT about appearing weepy and needy all the time.

Plan A is NOT about laying down and taking all his actions in stride and just "doing nothing".

Plan A is NOT about enabling his A by moving out, loaning money, giving him space, giving him privacy.

Play A is about reaching a point in personal PAIN where you can detach somewhat, emotionally, and think with your mind, rather than with your heart. Your heart will tell you to do things that are counterproductive. You mind, coupled with Surviving an Affair, and these boards, will keep you within the boundries of Plan A.

Plan B is designed only to follow a great Plan A.

Plan A has a timetable, set by you, and typically can run from 3 to 6 months.

Plan A is not for wimps. It takes strength and resolve. There is a horrible amount of pain involved, and you must bear the FULL load of the work that must be done to save your marriage.

Plan A is about "reverse babble". Search Orchid's threads. How to amaze and confuse a WS with reverse babble.

Plan A is about showing your WS that you are the better choice for them, because you LOVED them enough to apologize for your part in allowing the marriage to become vulnerable, and to be the ROCK, by keeping to your principles during these times.

Dust off the book and re-read about Exposure, Plan A and Withdrawal. Very important information.

Lastly, keep a positive mental attitude. This can be successful. It was for me.

Best wishes,
SD

<small>[ March 13, 2005, 11:07 PM: Message edited by: shattered dreams ]</small>

Hello everyone,

Be warned ahead of time. What follows will mostly likely not make any sense. It will be just venting. It's all coming from PAIN. No logic, no direction. Just don't know what to do with all the pain. And yes, I am wondering right now will I have what it takes to get past the pain. Right now I don't feel I do. The only solution was to come here and say really anything hoping it will relieve some of the pain to start to think, because I can't do that right now.

I am finding avoiding the LBing part difficult, especially the angry outbursts. In attempting not to have any, I feel the anger is going inward and it's doing a lot of damage. I feel like something inside of me is breaking, like my insides are being ripped apart.

I really feel unequipped to cope. I am desperately trying to hold on to dear life, but fast moving towards to "what's the point?" I don't want to go there, I really don't.

I am talking to myself. Since coming here, I am telling myself, look at how many deal and survive the pain, you'll find a way.

I always learned about my H's contact with OW after the fact. This morning, my gut feeling was telling me: don't believe what he says - he's planning to be with the OW - and it's never never been so clear although on the surface it may look as business as usual - and yes, he can look at me straight in the eyes and lie.

He is quickly depleting my Love Bank for him; I am losing the love and respect I have for him. I know these situations are all around me, but I have never been IN it. I want to be brave. I want to get past this, any way possible. I have got to somehow stop the pain. If I could choose physical pain over this emotional and psychological pain right now I would.

I have got to put this in perspective. There is a possibility I could be wrong? and in the scheme of a lifetime, this can't be such a big deal.

I have lived other difficult "moments" in my life. Why can't I find a way of dealing with this? Because it's in the present, because it's hitting me at the core of my being, at the core of my value system (unlike other difficult times).

My share: did I place too much confidence, loyalty, trust in one person? I should have been more watchful, more alert, consider more the possibility of this happening one day, more realistic, less naive. How could I have been so stupid and have given that much power to another person. But I did, and I am now paying for it.

I have been hurt before, but nothing compares to how painful it is for me this time around. I know life can deal a lot of bad cards, even worst than this, but to me, right now, this is unbearable. We should never get in a situation where we cannot handle the worst scenario. I feel I got in over my head. I don't feel I have what it takes. Where oh where is my strength?

I am wondering if I should write this sort of stuff for myself, I know some will judge me, because I do feel like a whiner right now, but I am hoping sharing this will be more helpful than hurtful.

I know a lot of you are not surprised. You have been there, and you could see this coming.

Luna,

WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS TO YOURSELF??????????????

Think!!!!!!

You are right in that most of the people here on this website have suffered the terrible undescribable pain that infidelity causes. And from that experience and the advice of Dr. Harley and the hundreds or thousands of people he has helped the MBers here have offered you their advice. You have systematically said thank you but "I know best what is for me to do" and you have systematically come back to tell us that your pain is worse.

WHY DO YOU DO THAT TO YOURSELF???????

Now after all this time you are even blaming yourself for the affair!!!

All the answers are on this thread, in the wise words posted to you by the people who understand and care. truly this is a thread worth keeping for 2 reasons: your situation is TYPICAL of an affair and the advice is wonderful, and given in all the ways it can be, in the hopes that you will understand at least one of them.

I am sorry for your pain but we all share that. Today is my 19th wedding anniversary and WH will probably not remember.... I haven't talked to him or seen him in 2 and 1/2 months...

But I have hope, and I know that whatever happens with my marriage I will come out of this a better person and maybe a better futur wife. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

So what are you going to do now?

luna

Do you have some personal support locally? Your mother or father, pastor, sister, someone?

Seek a trustworthy person with whom you can confide your innermost thoughts. It is cleansing. If it must be done here, so be it, go right ahead.

But you cannot become intellectually hog-tied by this experience. You must take charge. If your WH walks out the door today, and you never see him again, as a result of an Affair, a car wreck, a heart attack, whatever, YOU are going to be fully responsible for you own well being for the rest of your life. And you should be. You should NOT be dependant on your WH for your own happiness. Your happiness is YOUR responsibility. Likewise, your future is YOUR responsibility.

Come to these forums for strength and advise, but not for pity. Come to these forums for information and comfort, to renew your spirit, not to show us yours is broken.

Lunamare...Allow the pain to become so unbearable that you can make the decision to emotionally DETACH from your WH and all he says and does. Think of him as a clone, with a brain not functioning properly, so you have to treat him differently, like he's sick, and YOU have to react differently, with your head, and not your heart. It can be done. You can do it. You must do it.

Today is the first day of the rest of your life. How are you going to spend it?

SD

<small>[ March 14, 2005, 10:35 AM: Message edited by: shattered dreams ]</small>

Plan B, Luna. Plan B. This is exactly what it's for -- to give you some relief, to give you some sense of control over a chaotic and abusive (yes, abusive) situation, and to keep your anger from turning into outright hatred of your WH.

PLEASE consider it. You are no different from anyone else here. I could have written your post, and so could many other betrayed spouses here.

Plan B.
Mulan

mulan...

I am not one to make waves here, but if you've followed luna's posts from the beginning, she's barely scratched the surface of doing ANY kind of a Plan A. Is it really in her best interest to go to Plan B when she's having trouble collecting her thoughts to attempt Plan A? Luna is only a month out from D-day, and has been paralyzed by pain and fear since then....

Just asking...
SD

SD -- In my opinion, someone like Luna has already been doing Plan A for *years.* From what she has told us, her WH is one of those hard-core, fence-sitting cake-eaters who will only continue to emotionally abuse her as long as she struggles in Plan A. He will be delighted by all the cake, while she suffers more by the day.

In cases like this, I do not see the point of continuing with Plan A. I do not see where it can do anything except prolong the suffering of the BS until all she wants is Plan D.

Just my .02.
Mulan

Just thought I'd let you know,

I have taken some deep breaths, spoken to a friend, and, yes, posting here has helped. The rollercoaster metaphore definitely applies.

At this point, H is leaving in 2 days for 2 1/2 weeks. I am trying really hard to avoid LBs until then. I will then be getting some relief knowing he is out of the country, and won't be worrying or asking myself if he has been lying to me. Less energy to put into avoiding LBs and Plan A - this counterintuitive thing is a big challenge for me. Because as you know as a reaction to some of the behaviour involved, nothing would bring more immediate relief than to let him have it (but, than, may not be good for long term objectives, which are slowing evaporating). It will also take H away from OW and his family, and give him time to think (or not). I will next need to avoid the trap of thinking about what will happen when he comes back, and should try to think about what I want to do next. I now know that I can't stay that much longer in an "uncertain" state. Unless a major miracle happens, when he comes back, I expect him to be moving out and I will probably now want him to move out for my sanity. I need to wrap my brain around that. I need to focus, and slowly may now be more prepared to do so as reality sets in, which is really hard to take, on how to organize myself on being by myself. However, it's not the same energy as if, say, it was due to the death of your partner. It is due to a betrayal of trust from the person you loved the most, with whom you will have to someone deal with, inspite of it all, because you have children in common. The symbolic death of your partner right now I feel is harder to deal with than an actual physical death of a partner, or at least the pain is very different. Closure is there, at least, that's for sure.

Again, some venting here, trying to get it out of me, before I go home and try being "counterintuitive" and think rather than feel, and not listen to my body which is continuing to give me signs that what I am living is unhealthy, and if it's not heard soon, and it keeps being ignored, the signs will only get bigger! My body is giving me signs for the need to protect myself - the need to do something - because I am somehow exposing myself to a lot of potential pain at the moment. The stress is too high.

I am now going to take a break. I will try to rest.

SD and Mulan - Either way, Plan B isn't an option until a physical separation has taken place, IMHO. By then, if that occurs, Plan B may be the best thing to do immediately. But without all available exposure already accomplished, this would not be as effective on the WS as it may be protective for the BS.

JMHO,
WAT

<small>[ March 14, 2005, 01:08 PM: Message edited by: worthatry ]</small>

I 100% agree, WAT!

SD

Luna -- are you sure OW will not be there on this trip? Don't they work together? And she could certainly arrange for vacation time and join him wherever he's going. It happens all the time.

Even *if* she's not there, be prepared for mucho contact between them the whole time -- phone calls, emails, carrier pigeons, you name it. Please don't think this trip is going to do a thing to put distance between them. If anything it will only make it easier for them.

Don't want to make you feel worse, but I do want you to be prepared.
Mulan

Luna,

Glad to know you have a close friend to whom you can speak. Though I don't mind you posting your random feelings and thoughts here.

You have spoken a couple of times about stress, loss of focus and physical manifestation of the same.

Do you have a regular exercise program? I know it seems like the last thing to do--start an exercise program--when your marriage and life is in this sort of chaos.

But it is amazing how much clearer my life seems after a good physical sweat...and it has been proven time and time again that exercise aids the body in dealing with stress.

Do you have an exercise program?

Hi Mulan,

I know for a fact OW will not be taking trip. But, you are right. Should expect them to be somehow maintaining communication.

I am seeing sides to my H that I never saw before, and am being continually taken by surprise. I know I should take into account the fact that he may be in an "alien" state of mind, but still, I never thought he would stoop that low (not that all of us don't have the potential to do so), in justifying any way he can his actions.

You are all right. I am certainly making things easy for him. The way I usually operate, in a trustworthy matter, should and must change to adapt to the new hostile environment of lies. I admit it, I am just not good at it, and that's where the problem is. Switching my way of operating under the new circumstances. I may understand things in theory, putting them into practice is much harder, if not impossible.

I feel like I haven't had a good night sleep in ages!

I feel like I am putting a lot of energy in holding things "in" or "down" and losing the battle - what am I pushing down, I ask myself? what can't I face? That my H is not the person I thought he was? Or, he is, but is now in a temporarily or permanent(?) altered state of mind? That my M may be over? That I am too proud? Do I worry about how I will be judged by others? I need to face whatever it is because I feel I am losing the battle otherwise. I am told that you will be less fearful of demons in the dark once you turn on the light.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lunamare:
<strong>I am told that you will be less fearful of demons in the dark once you turn on the light. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">These are the wisest words you have written on this forum.

Turn on the light.

Expose them everywhere.

Shift your demons to them.

WAT

Luna--just some background questions not answered in former posts.

How long has the A been going on?

How long have you been married?

Also, you mentioned the H of the OW is devastated. Have you told him about this site and the books? Does he know that your husband is going to be gone for two weeks?---a good time for OW H to try and spend time with OW. (Working all of your angles).

I don’t mean to play Polyanna, but look at the good things about your present situation.

First: You are no longer walking blindfolded. That is, you know most of the truth about the state of your marriage, and that’s better than not knowing about the A and just ignorantly plodding along aimlessly in some pretend life.

Second: You’re Angry. Based on a review of your former posts, you seem to be moving normally through the cycles of grief. From Denial (those first posts where you are just sad and wanting to go to sleep or “wait and see” what happens) to now, where you seem to feel some anger about the situation your WH has created.

You seem like a polite and smart person to me-so I think some anger could be just what you need to get motivated and do something about protecting your territory and standing up for your family!

Since the title of this thread is Help with Plan A--here are some tips from a FWW:

Tell your WH you are proud that he had the courage and respect to come forward about the A and tell you rather than having you learn about it from someone else.

Practice playing Chess with your boys. (Since that is a recreation WH enjoys).

Use the two weeks he is gone to EXPOSE. Does he have a close friend that respects family that you can tell about the A? Or his parents?

Is he employed in the public or private sector?

<small>[ March 15, 2005, 07:43 AM: Message edited by: Ahuman ]</small>