Oak - your comments are spot on! Spot on. Plus I think BSs want to feel the hurt (god knows why?) but they want to take the hurt to the very edge of their sanity and wallow in it until they're sick to death of it. And boy do we have a high tolerance for hurting ourselves with those details. Two yrs on average of beating ourselves up.

The details belong to the marriage. If a WS wants privacy they should exit the M. If the WS is willing to share the details with the BS they allow all of what happened to be part of the couples shared history. No secret corners for either partner.

I think every details needs to be shared (if the BS wants every detail) - because it demystifies what happened and it opens the way to insight and understanding of what happened to the WS - and it eventually helps the BS. Though it takes a long time for the BS to see it that way. The BS needs to know the bottom line - to decide whether to stay or go and decide how much to invest in that person in the future. And as for making it safe for the WS to fess up? I think the WS should show courage in facing the aftermath of their cruel and selfish behavior. It's the least they can do. They were a coward in their infidelity - let them show some strength of character in their quest of forgiveness and trust. I guess they have to stop thinking about themselves and start putting their BS at the head of their priority list.

an

I have made love with Squid thousands of times. I knwo what she looks like during sex. Ihave seen short-arsed old blonde men in teh gym. I know what they look like naked.

Its not the sexual details I crave but the WILLINGNESS for Squid to tell me. Her willingness to overcome her embarassment( or whatever it is that inhibits her) and tell me what I ask.

I HATE That OM will have ANYTHING of Squids that I do not know about.

Ironically OM has given his GF every detail and she in turn has passed it to me.

I probably know a lot.

It more important to ME that Squid tells me the times and dates of their liasons so that she can face the fact that she manipulated me in to babysitting, paying for her and OMs meal and the motel they screwed in.

THAT is as bad as the sexual betrayal to me. THAT neds a lot of workfor me to recover from.

It sounds like you're after a male perspective but, what the hell! I don't crave sexual details - I don't feel threatened by the OW sexually. We are sooo different - and there lies the crux of a huge part of the attraction. In the words of Monty Python "And now for Something Completely Different". Unless they've had orgies, S&M, or a 3-some, I've done it with him. When we were at our best, we had great sexual compatibility but we had cooled off and the rot set in. He may well have experimented with her but I know my own boundaries and if that's what he wants, he's welcome to it. I completely understand if someone does want to know but to me, that creates a competition. Maybe I'm a bad loser! TT

It is important that your WW be open to answering any aspect of the affair you wish to question and hear. If it is complete details then so be it. If it is only time, and place, then thats alright to. Each man is different in his need to know.
I do know myself that if I do not ask a question I feel I need to know my imagination will fill in the blanks and God only knows what that may end up looking like.
To sight a real example....
I was and still am curious about their sexual forays at the motel room. I have not asked since it is only a curiosity not a need at this point. Because I have not asked I assumed when my wife sat down next to me on our bed and pulled me backward to initiate love I stood up and said "not now". My actual thinking which I told her later that she must of done the same thing too the OM! Come to find out she never did but my imagination told me they did.

So bottom line, if you feel it is important to know the details then ask. If she is unwilling to provide them then she is being selfish or extremely embarrassed and does not realize you will never really get beyond it if she holds the answer back.

SM

<small>[ February 28, 2005, 05:03 AM: Message edited by: SilentMisery ]</small>

I am one of those who is going to have to know every last detail. Why? Well, there is this great thread by Noodle (aren't they all?) where she talks about the need to kill the itimacy that still exists between the WS and OP. When the BS is informed, the intimacy ceases to exist. It will hurt, but that is the quickest way to true healing - cauterize that wound with a hot poker.

I would do a search and post the link, but I am tired and off to bed....

TM

Personally it's all about hearing the truth. I don't really have a need to see how I size up, or if he (they) were better - I've always given my wife all I have to give driven by my love for her. If somebody else is better there's nothing I can do about it, and if that's more important than all the other aspects of our life together I guess I'm just s*** out of luck.

When I ask her for details; as strange as this may sound I'm basically asking for intimacy... for her to share her secrets with me no matter how painful. I'm asking her to show me that she trusts me in a way that will help me learn to trust her again.

I'm asking her to place her heart in my hands just as I've placed mine in hers.

I'm asking her to come back to me completely - without reservation.

I know that no matter what happens I will never have 100% trust in her again, but I'm working for 99.999, and the faith she can place in me by openning her soul and baring all - for me - is an important step down that road.

From a BH's perspective, I don't know about this and it's one of the issues I'm struggling with. My W had at least a 10 mo EA/PA going on, I think I know most of the times/locations (incl while I was away on my ship (military duties)) but not the intimate details. I've probed in asking but she says she doesn't want to say to protect me from that. She does say that it was great b/c it wasn't reality and b/c he was better than me (ouch!). I've imagined their times together and it really bothers me, I think the truth would bother me too, b/c I know what it takes for her to give herself to someone and how fulfilling it is!
The flip side to not pressing the issue and asking for the gory details is: a) She's in NC now and I don't want her to think fondly of those times, and b)The A was the work of the devil and so too are these jealous feelings in me. They are only self-destructive and I think they won't help recovery, can only hurt the relationshhip that we're trying hard to restore. When my imagination starts wondering, I try to put it on the shelf but it's probably something I'll address in MC.

Me BS (40) (mil officer)
WW (37)
M 14 yrs
D-Day 1/19/05, working on recovery
2 great kids B(11) & G(8)

I'd rather stick a dozen sharpened pencils in my mind's eye than to hear that part of it....or any part of it anymore.

Really.

- Kimmy

Thanks for all the responses. It is nice to hear different views. Every one is different in thier resoning, but all are primarily looking for the same thing. I guess I really just want the openness of her willing to try to share. I do not force the issue, I just ask questions that I need answered not the ones out of curiosity.
We had a breakthrough the other day, and she answered 1 question for me, now I am trying to digest it before moveing on. She has said from the start, she will not answer any sex questions, so this was a big step. I also look more at the physical/facial expressions to her answers than the answer itself. It is sometimes easier to tell how she is feeling, by action more than verbal.
again thanks.