Morning FL,

Just have a few moments here, but I think RIF and others are giving you some good insight. You mentioned self-worth. I know what you do for a living and that means you are a fact based person. So let's review a few things shall we?

First, I live on the "left coast" and here we have Proposition 13, which basically controls property taxes. The bottom line primus (sp) is that a property is worth what someone actually pays for it. So we don't need property assessors here. You sell a house, THAT is it's value. Simple, worth is determined by the buyer.

I like that idea a lot and I think it applies to your marriage. Let's review the bidding here for a second.

Your marriage is in terrible shape. You are ready to leave. He realizes this and does plan A on your for two years.

During that two years and even before you are having A's with a variety of men, including a friend of his.

Ultimately, you tell him. He hears it in stages but eventually he knows the whole truth about you.

He stays. He has been betrayed many times and he stays with you.

FL, all I can say is you must one HECK OF A WOMAN. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> More importantly your H feels you are worth the effort of a two plan A that had little chance of working because of your ongoing A, and then the subsequent pain of further revelations.

The facts ARE: he stayed in this marriage. The data indicates that YOU are worth an tremendous amount to him. I don't know why, you don't know why, but he feels you are worth all of this effort. Sooo...then by definition you have tremendous worth. ACCEPT THAT FACT. SMILE about that fact, REJOICE in that fact. You are a very special woman and your H knows it.

Now let's examine a few more FACTS: You are a good mother. Your children love you, look up to you, respect you for what you have done for them as a mother. Therefore, the FACTS say you are WORTH a lot to them.

Now let's go to another fact: You work in a industry that has a lot of layoffs, yet you continue to work. Very clearly you are valued by your company as many only wished they were valued by theirs.

So let's see: Your company values professionally. Your children value as a mother. AND your H values you as his W. The FACTS say that, and whether you want to accept that or not does change the fact that you have been determined to have great WORTH to the people around you.

You don't get to evaluate your own worth...they do and they have. It is like out here on the "left coast" the value is determined by the buyer, and all of your "buyers" feel you have a lot of value and worth.

FL, isn't time you gave them a gift to represent your appreciation? The gift they want and need is really very simple. They need to see you accept their evaluation of your worth, and smile. They need you to accept that they need you in their lives. And when you finally realize the gift you give them is your smile, your contentment with their assessments, and your joy with life. NOTHING would make your H, your children happier, and yes even the people you work with happier than to have you finally accept that you are WORTH a lot to them.

Since it is a gift, it should come with no strings attached. It should come whether or not the kids or your H is having a good day or a bad day. It should come no matter what happens in your marriage. It is time FL for you to give them what they NEED and that is an FL at peace with herself and willing to accept the FACT that they feel you worth a great deal to them.

Your lack of forgiveness of yourself is withholding this gift. You see it manifested in the weight you worry about so much. You see it in your fears and lack of smiles. Isn't time to forgive and accept your loved ones evaluation of you. You are WORTH the effort, the facts say so.

You have only a few years left with your oldes and they will fly enjoy them (inspite of having to deal with a teenager). Give that child and your other child the gift of a mother that has accepted their evaluation.

The same goes for you and your H. Whatever time you two are alloted together enjoy it, smile about it, accept that he has and does feel you are WORTH the effort.

You are hurting them with your sadness and unforgiving of yourself. Time to stop FL.

I was going to respond to the earlier comments, but I think I will stop here, because I feel that YOU NEED to decide to forgive yourself as a GIFT to your children and your H. I think you will see the results of this gift in many ways. You will start to see the weight gradually drop off. You will see your H be more comfortable around you as you smile more, take things less seriously with respect to having your feelings hurt (YOU KNOW YOU ARE VALUED), and as you enjoy your children more.

It is time FL, don't you think?

God Bless,

JL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FinallyLearning-T2M:
<strong> i was kinda hoping you would help me see things in a more positive way!! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Morning FL! Actually, I was going to post to you last night, but figured you'd already gone to bed and wanted to wait until today after I'd thought about it a bit more.

IMHO, your H has every right to his opinion of the Christian radio station. Just as you have every right to enjoy it... so I don't really think that the disagreement was about the Christian radio station... It sounds like it was more due to the way he was disrespectful to you in front of the children .

If he makes a negative comment about the Christian radio station in front of the kids again, you might let him know that you can appreciate his point of view and his choice of music, but that you enjoy this station and it hurts you when he makes fun of you in front of the children....

Try to keep the discussion in terms of how his action makes you feel... let him know that you aren't trying to change his likes or dislikes in music, but that it hurts you when he is disrespectful to you in front of the kids.

It doesn't do any good to try and get your H to agree with you about the Christian radio station (or whatever issue is the catalyst)... again, he's entitled to his own point of view just as you are...

You did great in confronting your H with this and discussing it with him. I think that if you will try to frame your future discussions with your H in terms of how you feel, then you won't appear to be trying to "force" him to agree with your point of view... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Semper Fi,
RIF

Bumpity Bump... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hi RIF,

i did see your post earlier, i was not able to post at that time. I am in lab again now. Be here for too long, H leaves at 6am.

I agree, H certainly does have a right to his own opinion.

so here is what happened.

first thing this morning, i wrote the following to H.

First off, I'm sorry about being on the phone as I pulled up at the airport. I can certainly understand how that could make the person being picked up fell less important. I should of wrapped up the call to Beth before pulling up to the curb

(RIF, this is referring to him telling me, after i brought up the radio thing, that he was bothered by me being on the phone when i first got to the airport) back to the note...

Second, I would like to clear the air about k-love. We only have this morning to be togetehr before your trip. I don't want to waste our time together. Perhaps I still need to work on my timing. I didn't bring up k-love earlier because we were all so hectic and you were getting ready to leave for the airport. So I waited. but I could of waited a bit longer. I just wanted you to know, klove has impacted my life. Listening to christian music, removing myself from listening to music that sometimes idealizes bad morals like infidelity is someting that I am not only glad I did but I am proud of it too. The thought that you don't get what it's about bugs me. I need to figure out why exactly that is.

Anyway, I love you, I am glad you are my husband and i have breakfast going just for YOU! xoxoxo

I got most of the breakfast made and i went upstairs, he was still in bed (kids were gone to school by now), so i laid back down with him and fell asleep with him. we both got up and as i finished breakfast, he read my note. he didn't say anything right away, finally asked me if we needed to talk about this anymore. i said i told him i didn't know. cuz i really didn't know. i had said what was on my mind in the note. i was hoping he would respond with his thoughts. later when we were in the car he said, i just have 1 question about what you wrote. are you saying, you conciously listened to certain music and that contributed to your decisions. i said, no not really, no more than it would impact anyone. it's more that i am more concious of it now and it really does not appeal to me now. he said, oh ok. by this point i had already read your post and you are right, some of it is also about the fact he did this in front of the kids. but even not in front of the kids would bug me. is that wrong? i would not make fun of something he enjoys. he told me he believed that the entire car's atmosphere is uncomfortable when that station is on. he believes the kids are uncomfortable with it too. i asked why he is making that assumption, he conceeded he really does not know if that is the case for them or not. i asked him if he could explain to me why he is uncomfortable with that music. cuz i was just curious. but he says he cannot explain it.

during the day, when i had the chance, i asked each kid, i happened to have each one of them in the car driving with me on their own during the course of the day. my son has no opinion, has noticed i am listening to a different station. doesn't really pay attention to it. certainly is not uncomfortable with it. my daughter surprised me, she said she is. then she said but not for the reason you may be thinking. she continued to tell me that just recently she has started to wonder if God is real. as we talked, she determined that perhaps it is world history that is triggering her into questioning it all. cuz through out history there has been so many cases of wars and bad people. then she said even in the church. i said it is very understandable that she would have these questions. i told her that everyone questions stuff like this at various times in their lives. in fact, it is thru this type of questioning that your spiritual life can be developed. those that never question may end up with a superficial religous belief. i told her i have questioned it all. in fact we had a really good discussion. i told her she is growing up so much!!! that it is almost scary. but also wonderful. i have not had a chance to tell H about this yet. i'm thinking i might look for an age appropriate book on this. do you have any suggestions?

ok, i veered off the track a bit.

to me it seemed like H was staying scarce around me until i finally left for work. we didn't have too much interaction. a little bit and we were cordial. i will be here late, and i know he will get to bed early since he leaves so early. he will then be home on sunday.

thanks for asking about things.

would certainly welcome your thoughts.

i don't know why, but i totally missed both FF and JL's posts until just now. i have to digest what you said for a bit before responding. i am totally with you about work and the kids. and the kids are certainly seeing a happier mom. my daughter has said that a few times. we talk quite openly. but JL, it is really a very possible reality that the worth my H sees in me is not about me as a close partner to him but what i give to him. i know this will all sound so terrible. but without me, he would have to work, he would not have a second home with a hot tub and boat. his life would be a lot harder!!! i don't want to be loved for me, not for the "things" i can provide for him. i know i will probably get a 2x4 for what i just said, but sometimes i really wonder. i don't think he does not care for me at all, i'm not saying that, but i do wonder if things would be different if he was not so dependent on me.

ok, i'm back.

my last post was wrong. i am not going to delete it. i'm going to own up to having those thoughts but i am also officially saying, i know those last thoughts of mine, about if H is here for me or for the benefits he gets by being my husband is just wrong, unconstructive, unproductive and wrong. i'm 2x4ing myself.

Hey FL - There's nothing wrong with your "feelings"... your feelings are what they are. IMHO, it's how you deal with those feelings that makes the difference.

If you feel this way about your H, then you should talk with him about it... for me, that's what true intimacy is with my W... I can talk with her about ANYTHING... I don't worry about what she will think, because I know that she will listen to my point of view and then we can discuss it...

It's not easy to learn to do this especially if one or both of you are conflict avoiders... but you can learn.

So did you talk with your H and let him know that it upsets you when he embarrasses you?

Semper Fi,
RIF

RIF,

yes i did talk to him about how i felt disrespected in frong of the kids. he didn't think what he said was any big deal but he did say he could avoid doing it in the future if that is how i feel about it.

even when we talk it out, i come away feeling ucky still. i have to figure out why that is.

he is gone now until sunday evening. he was up when i got home last night but we didn't really connect, nor did we this morning before he left. i would not say we are mad at each other but we were not connected at all. just superficially nice. i hate superficially nice. i shouldn't hate superficially nice but i do. is that normal or is that cuz my dad and step mom were so overwhelmingly superficiall. maybe it's my perspective. maybe my H would not say we were just superficially nice. of course he would not be in a bad mood right now, he is very happy and excited about the golf trip. i sincerly hope he has a nice time. the best thing i can do is just enjoy the next 4 days with the kids and forget all about this stuff between he and i. i can just be a single mom for 4 days

Hi FL!!!!

Hey, ya know....RH and I were like that for quite a while after d-day...superficially nice, walking on eggshells around each other. I think it's been only the past two or three months that it has gradually become more genuine and intimate between us...at least I am feeling more genuine and intimate. I guess maybe it was genuine before, but we were really unsure of ourselves....make sense? We both were almost constantly afraid of saying the "wrong" thing, or doing the wrong thing....it takes TIME to feel safe again. I think you're moving in the right direction. When you come away from the confrontations feeling yucky, I think it's because you still feel guilty for asking for respect or consideration of your feelings. It is really uncomfortable at first and you haven't had a lot of practice so you're afraid of it coming across all wrong! And it very well might....but if it does, then you gotta keep talking....Sometimes that process takes five or more separate conversations about the same thing until you finally feel like you're understanding each other. It gets easier, eventually, if you persist.

{{{{FL}}}}

NOW

HI NOW, (i just love how you are NOW now!!)

anyway, "if you persist" that is the key now isn't it? i don't think, i'm not persisting really good right now . if i take an honest look at my actions, i am falling back into bad old habits. habits that make it harder for H to come out looking good. i feel a chip on my shoulder this morning. and that is only something i can get rid of. resentment is a terrible thing!!!! it sure can make you feel rather justified for not wanting to like someone though. i don't want to like him right now. i have the perception that all he ever does is put me down and rarely compliments me.

i need to work thru some of this stuff the next 4 days while i am on my own. i really do. right now, i really have to get myself dressed, my son to school and myself back to lab.

thanks again for the hi

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FinallyLearning-T2M:
<strong> RIF,

yes i did talk to him about how i felt disrespected in frong of the kids. he didn't think what he said was any big deal but he did say he could avoid doing it in the future if that is how i feel about it .

even when we talk it out, i come away feeling ucky still. i have to figure out why that is.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey FL - FL, there is NOTHING wrong with you asserting your feelings to your H. Your "rights" as a wife and a mother didn't just go away because you had an A... You have every right to let your H know how you feel and to especially let him know when he does something that bothers you... that's being honest with him... remember, he's looking for honesty from you not just in your actions, but in your words and thoughts as well...

I think NOW* hit the nail on the head... You need to accept the fact that you ARE worthy and deserving of respect from your H...

Remember, your PAST actions don't define who you are TODAY ... You are becoming a strong, confident, woman of God and you are worthy of your H and your family... so don't keep buying the lie that your past will forever be held against you...

Semper Fi,
RIF

bumpity bump - How are you doing this evening FL?

Hi RIF,

thanks for asking.

i had quite a headache when i got out of work. the headache actually has a name and i was about to verbally rip him to pieces today. although i held my tongue some, i know he realizes i am not too fond of him as i know he is totally not fond of me. i don't care, as i have no respect for his total lack of dedication, not to mention his ability. gee, think i have a strong opinion on this one?? i actually went to my boss about it last week. i told her how he's been saying how he is doing all this stuff but in reality he has been sticking me with a lot of it. she was happy i told her about it. i'm guessing she talked to him cuz he was really nasty today. it's amazing how easy it is for me to stand up for myself at work.

kids and i had a very fun dinner though, i got a variety of foods from the local butcher and we all tasted each item. we had dinner in the living room, all sitting on pillows around the coffee table, with candles and piano music <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> they loved it. my daughter kept telling me how i totally out did myself. i told them to not tell dad about the meal and we will do it again some evening next week when he is home. then i tutored, made calls to get volunteers to work the upcoming play and now i am typing up the schedule.

but even with all that activity, or maybe because of it, i am feeling better than i was earlier.

i'm giving my brain a rest in regards to my H and our M. for right now anyway. i need to take a break from it, i need to just be happy and enjoy the next few days. the kids and i always have fun when it is just the 3 of us. i feel more relaxed. i know that might sound terrible, but it's true. i miss him and i'll be glad when he is home, but i like not feeling anxious all the time, especially when i pull up to the house at the end of the day. i like being a single mom right now.

Hey FL - Have you given any thought as to why you don't feel comfortable around you H? I don't think it's terrible to feel this way, but you might want to give some thought as to why you feel like this.

Rebuilding can be a very painful process at times... but I can tell you that if you will invest the time and energy into it, then you will eventually get to a point where your M is so much better...

Thanks for the update and I hope you and your kids have a great time together over the next couple of days!

Semper Fi,
RIF

yeah, i kinda knew that question was coming. because i thought the same thing as i typed it. i suppose i would have to put a lot more thought in it to give it justice but the quick answer is, he critizies me so much!!! i mean like constantly and about everything. he is so much like his mom, i don't know how he put up with her growing up. she is a nice lady, don't get me wrong, but she is so critical.

i remember when i was first dating him, everytime we saw them, if she could not come up with some other thing, the fallback critisim would be his hair, "get a haircut!!" she didn't like our first house at all, said the spiral staircase would be the death of someone. she didn't like our second and current house, said steam radiators is going to burn the kids all the time. stuff like that. she comes over and says, your windows are so dirty!!! you need to wash them. or when is the last time you washed your curtians!!! ugh!!! and i know she drove his Dad nuts. his dad was no saint, i am sure, i hear he used to drink a lot at some point. but he was such a sweetheart. for as much as she critizsed, he, on the other hand, always had nice things to say. to me at least, he would tell me so often how glad i was his daughter in law. i really miss his dad.

my H is not good at paying me any compliments so his critism does not get offset either.

the other thing is that no matter what, more often that not, we seem to be at odds with each other instead of being a team. even such simple things end up being a power struggle.

power struggle, nasty business, isn't it?

he says i like to always get my way. i think that in many cases, i just think faster than him. i am better at evaluating the options, he does not like to be bothered with details. he tends to decide on a course of action not because of any reasons. i, on the other hand, anaylize all the angles and form a strong opinion based on that.

and yes, i am very aware of how i must be sounding right now. like a rather strongly opinionated and therefore non-flexible person. i know for a fact that is how i am at work and although sometimes i may step on a toe or get on someone's nerves a bit, it usually works out because 1) i joke so much i keep most people too entertained to care that i am being such a pain and 2) people come to respect me rather quickly and appreciate and value my ideas. which of course is because i usually am right, i don't mean to sound egotistical but it is true. i have a talent at being able to quickly evealuate a problem and come up with the most likely cause and strategy for a solution. and i am quick, some testers just find a problem, give minimal details and wash their hands of it. i on the other hand love the challange of finding the cause and a solution. so when i find a problem, i generally call the developer in and by the time we are done, they have a fix completely worked out and ready for submission. good deal for them too.

this is why i think i am so good at tutoring. i can see the solutions in many ways, i can tell when they are not getting what i am saying and then i just explain it in another way until i figure out how they think and therefore how to more effectively teach them.

well that was a long ramble...

so what conclusions can i draw from looking at my thoughts here....

the main one is... i would rather be happiely married than right all the time and i probable could work at lightening up when it comes to making plans. we don't always have to have the most effective plan. sometimes i could actually take the back seat a bit more.

and the other one is i could get better at paying him compliments and thanking him for things he does. i have been doing this for a while already. i make it a point to thank him whenever he makes the dinner or starts the laundry or goes to the store, stuff like that. i also have made it a point to tell him i appreciate his character, his strength, his commitment.

did anyone actually read all of this??? if so, you really need a hobby or something!!!!!

my H is not good at paying me any compliments so his critism does not get offset either. Are you sure you are not M'd to my H with my MIL? Well my MIL is not quite as bad about direct criticism she just is never satisfied or happy, my H is a lot like her.

the other thing is that no matter what, more often that not, we seem to be at odds with each other instead of being a team. even such simple things end up being a power struggle. You ARE living my life, LOL. FL, seriously buy the book Safe Haven Marriage. Written by a husband/wife team can't remember the name right now. You will see your patterns of communication in that book, I swear.

thanks FF, i'll look at details of that book right now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FinallyLearning-T2M:
<strong> yeah, i kinda knew that question was coming. because i thought the same thing as i typed it. i suppose i would have to put a lot more thought in it to give it justice but the quick answer is, he critizies me so much!!! i mean like constantly and about everything. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi FL - Did your H criticize you before the A's or just here lately after your confession? Have you discussed this with your H and let him know that it hurts you when he criticizes you?

I think you're off to a great start with trying to not be in control all of the time and with paying your H more complements...

Keep looking for ways to build your H up... but don't be affraid to let him know when something that he's doing hurts you...

Semper Fi,
RIF

hi RIF, he has always been the type to critisize. it is just in his nature. i seriously don't even think he realizes it sometimes. lately my daughter has been on him. i'm not really sure what that is about, but she calls him on things he says. not in a bad way, more like "Dad, look at what you just said!!!" and his response is usually "what??" he is also the type to make fun of things and other people. he generally expects the worse from everyone and he is the first to admit it. i remember in MC once, this was with the first MC that ended up telling me he didn't think H loved me. We were talking about something that occured with a neighbor and H was saying how he thought it was possible that we were going to have troubles with this neighbor, he had just moved into the house next to our vacation house. and so he was making comments about this neighbor and it was getting on my nerves, he didn't even know them yet. so the MC asked H, what do you think the likeliness of things going bad, like a % and H said 30%, so the C said if it is less likely, why are you expecting and already acting like that is how it is going to be.

i'm not sure H really paid much attention to it but it has stuck with me. H really does focus more on the neg.