NOW and FR,

Allow me to appease you both <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> [just kidding]

Seriously though I can say very reasonably that I will not ever have an affair.

Not because I am inherently good.
Not because I am morally superior.

Just the opposite in fact. I am aware of and accept that there is no end to what I am capable of. No "bottom" to hit. No "worst".

The dark version of me..is still me. It is always an option, always present. There is what CV would call the "choice point" in every decision..large and small, the point is the same.

Which is why I have said [and people think I am joking, but truly I am not] that the WS and OP rely heavily on the BS to be dependable, predictable..and to choose unselfishly..unwickedly..ethically.

If the subject were to come up someday..I surely wouldn't mind asking the OW what she thinks would have become of her..if I had been equally self gratifying..if I had shunned "right" and denied "consequence" and chose purely to satisfy my own drives..what would the outcome have been for her?

I have already asked FWH. He is having a hard time coming to grips with the concept that I am no less human than he.

He did not believe that he was capable of making that choice. I have always known that I am. If you had asked him even an hour before he would have been quite offended.."of course I wouldn't cheat on my wife, how could you think I would?!"..and yet the scenarios he placed himself in begged the question be asked.

Ignorance and denial are not bliss. They do not lead to bliss, they make a pit stop there on the way to despair.

I am acutely aware of my own capacity for darkness..and believe that actions have consequences..with no exemptions.

H has believed, and may be struggling with the need for change, that he could choose the consequence as well as choose the action.

Can a man choose not to hit the ground once he has stepped off a cliff?

The last key..is to know a cliff when you see it. To accept that it is a cliff, even if it looks like a nice place to play. To not rely on your own perceptions, your own assesments as the only assesments worth merit.

There is always a choice point. A person can not both seek to be wise and embrace scoffery. You can not serve two masters, you can not live two lives. Lack of integrity will lead to entropy, every time.

Who would choose to be a fool? Who would WANT their choices to end in failure and misery?

In order to bypass the self knowledge that I already posses..this is the choice I would have to make. I am without excuse.

Noodle

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am acutely aware of my own capacity for darkness..and believe that actions have consequences..with no exemptions.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Noodle...you have a way with words....very eloquent, always. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Referring to your statement above, I wanted to ask, how does a person become aware of their own capacity for darkness? As an example, how did YOU come to this knowledge? (I'm not trying to be cute here...it's a sincere question.)

I was taught this concept in church. I believed it....but did not FULLY KNOW it in my heart, as does one who has actually BEEN to the darkness. I had thought that my awareness of that capacity would be enough, but in this case, my affair, it was not. I am reasonably sure I would not commit murder, however, I know the capacity is there....but I would NEVER believe I was truly capable of it until I actually committed murder.

I have learned much from watching other people make mistakes. It wasn't enough....my own father had an affair. I knew there would be consequences, pain, hurt....so why did I do it anyway? Why in God's name did I take that risk? And even now, though I am painfully aware of that "dark side" of me, do I not still trust myself to always make the right choice?

ncw:

"There are many FS who did not incorporate a religious discovery as part of the process. Consider ol’ 2Long. He doesn’t claim membership in a faith as part of his recovery process. Yet more than many (myself included) his walk of forgiveness is PHENOMENAL. (And we will get to him eventually. Wink for 2Long. )"

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

But you know that I'm spiri2al, if not religious. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

MSchluter:

Science is a tool. It accomplishes no more nor less than the capability and/or insight of the tool user. Science is for figuring stuff out. Physical stuff mostly, if not entirely. Religion is also for figuring stuff out, but deals with the spiri2al side of things.

Currently, I'm more "inspired" by the things I see via my employment of the scientific method than I do by studying religion, though I suppose it's not impossible that that may change at some point.

I don't think the 2 are mu2ually exclusive, but there are obvious differences:

As Carl Sagan once said "In science, the only sacred truth is that there are no sacred truths." Scientific hypotheses are forumlated and tested all the time, and a lot of "good ideas" fall by the wayside in the process.

Whereas religion - organized religion, specifically - is rooted in sacred truths that *apparently* must be accepted, not tested. I say apparently because I personally believe in testing their validity all the time. Thomas was my favorite disciple. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

End of threadjack!

-ol' 2long

Noodle: Good points! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Can a man choose not to hit the ground once he has stepped off a cliff?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You almost got me with that one. LOL. Then I read this one:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The last key..is to know a cliff when you see it. To accept that it is a cliff, even if it looks like a nice place to play. To not rely on your own perceptions, your own assesments as the only assesments worth merit.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Which of course involves faith - and personal choices.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What can I say? Maybe ten years ago if I had been faced with the temptation to have an affair, I would have refused. TODAY, I can fairly confidently say I would refuse if faced again. All I am saying is that no matter how sure a person thinks they are about something, there is always that possibility, albeit a small one, that they could be wrong.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NOW: I agree with you that there is the possibility for everyone. And please don't view me as 2x4ing you. Not my intent. I get from you that your conviction was strong - until it happened - and now your conviction is strong again, but not quite as strong as before. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I also feel that there are several "choice-points" (I like that phrase) that could/should be viewed as warning signs. Since being on MB - I've realized there are a few constants with all WS's before the A starts. One is; when "faced with the temptation..." and another constant is that Christians "turned away from God" and made the choice to allow themselves to continue down the destructive path. My experience with the latter is that whenever a Christian turns away from God; they're really saying: "I know me and my needs better than God, this feels right, so I am now in control...". Rarely does that mindset work positively.

Again, NOW; no 2x4's. Just talking - and hopefully learning! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Have a great day.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by notonlywords*:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am acutely aware of my own capacity for darkness..and believe that actions have consequences..with no exemptions.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Noodle...you have a way with words....very eloquent, always. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Referring to your statement above, I wanted to ask, how does a person become aware of their own capacity for darkness? As an example, how did YOU come to this knowledge? (I'm not trying to be cute here...it's a sincere question.)

You know, I'm not really certain. I don't think there is a class a person could take at nights, for example..I think that there are situations in life..affairs for one..that either change you, or fail to, if that makes sense. That cause to you choose to become aware, or choose to turn away from yourself as you were [and thereby lay the tracks for the next blow]

I was taught this concept in church. I believed it....but did not FULLY KNOW it in my heart, as does one who has actually BEEN to the darkness. I had thought that my awareness of that capacity would be enough, but in this case, my affair, it was not. I am reasonably sure I would not commit murder, however, I know the capacity is there....but I would NEVER believe I was truly capable of it until I actually committed murder.

What you seem to be suggesting here..is that you didn't quite *accept* the truth..not that you didn't know intellectually. That you weren't *forced* to know, that there was still room for denial. What concerns me is that even now..now that you have personally witnessed your own capacity..you still say that you would not believe [not really] that you could truly commit murder..until you actually had. That right there is the difference between us. I believe and know that I am TRULY capable of that, and worse. I have been to the darkness. The place in myself where the choice is made..I looked into the absyss, I chose not to enter it. You enterred it...but seem to be yet resisting its existence. I don't quite know what to say to you about that

I have learned much from watching other people make mistakes. It wasn't enough....my own father had an affair. I knew there would be consequences, pain, hurt....so why did I do it anyway? Why in God's name did I take that risk? And even now, though I am painfully aware of that "dark side" of me, do I not still trust myself to always make the right choice? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think this is very important..this self distrust. I don't *trust* myself to make the right choice from within the belly of the beast either. My choice is to not be swallowed by the beast in the first place. This is why I struggle much less with my Hs choice in that moment before beginning to have sex with OW [although the sex itself disturbs me very much..this comes from the primal part of me, the id..not much to be done about it] by that moment, he was all but lost in terms of having fed the self serving/self deluding part of his character and having nearly starved and squelched his superego [I know these terms are much oversimplified..they just make for convenient shorthand]..in that frame of mind I wouldn't *expect* anyone to make sound judgements.

Let me ask you a question NOW..I think we would both agree that it was not one boundary crossed to get to your A..but many. You were not addicted prior to having crossed the first..so why did you not turn away when you had the chance? I would bet that scoffing played a significant role. This rejection of the notion that such vicious and ugly behavior could REALLY and TRULY be something you desired. Rejection of the fact..that crossing that first boundary was every bit as vicious and ugly as crossing the last. Rationalization. Scoffery. This rejection of the reality that the choices that we make..bend and shape us..mold us into the person we choose to be, the person who was always on option, given the sum of our parts.

People like to say "they were not themselves"..but what I suggest is that people are *always* themselves, they can hardly be someone else..instead that they have become a version of themselves that feels foreign to us..because we have denied the existence of these parts of them to such an extent..that we do not readily recognize them when they manifest. It felt like you at the time, right? All of your choices felt like you making them. There never was any alien.

These parts are dark, ugly, selfish, vicious, ruthless. These parts are what you draw on when you shoot an intruder in your home. The part of you that says ME first. We generally sugar it up with the notion that it was self defense, that the other person attacked first [and don't most WSs?..be honest] The trait is no respecter of persons though. It could just as easily drive the ME first train with regard to pleasure at anothers expense as fending off an attacker.

Rats, I'm out of time..but I'll come back later and finish this up.

Noodle

Hi all.

Looks like a lot of action on the thread.

You guys are asking questions way faster than I can answer them. Remember - I am trying to hammer all this out in my head as I go.

I do appreciate the questions. Just like in science, the best way to test a theory is to throw stones at it and see if it sinks. Or holds water, depending on your view. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I have picked and chosen portions of the replies and I will try and tackle this. Sorry if it is too long.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">from AN:: If your faith inspires your logic, then don't change. It's working for you.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'll take that as a big compliment. Thanks AN. Sometimes when I talk about my faith to people who don't share it, they roll the eyes at me. Thanks for respecting my beliefs too.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">from AN:: OK, I'm thinking of some of the WSs who are kinda back but not quite. Where the BS is still unsure about the level of committment and input from them. I wonder whether they feel this way because "actions speak louder than words", and there aren't enough unconditional actions happening yet? Having someone do for you, as you describe above, has to be reassuring - or if things are being done begrudgingly by the FWS, the message to the BS is....? They're not over it or back or loved, and feeling safe is a long way off. Yeah?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sounds like I may need to write a book. This is a very astute observation. I have been speaking about the relationship between Eros, Phileo, and Agape somewhat generally and you have reminded me that we live in a real world with real feelings. So here is my explanation to this:

Agape love is like a tightrope. It is COMPLETELY a mind/will thing. What emotion will help you walk a tightrope? Confidence maybe. Confidence only comes with repetition. As we flex our Agape muscles, our confidence in the ability to show Agape love increases. It is NOT feeling. It is like doing math, or singing, or anything else that improves with practice. Also fear. Fear may prevent us from taking the steps. I have never walked a tightrope, but would bet that it is easy (somewhat) until you stop. Riding a bike is like that. Pretty easy to balance as long as you are moving. OK. So some emotions can affect the Agape love. But they CANNOT remove it or bring it into being. So the real world hits. A WS is involved in an affair. Now this WHOLLY is in the realm of Eros and Phileo. The feelings loves. What does that do to Agape? Strums the tightrope. Heck, kind of feels like there is a gorilla on the other end bouncing the jeepers out of it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Makes it harder to walk the tightrope, but it is still a choice one makes to walk. End result of the affairs scrambling of the Eros and Phileo? The end result is that the Agape walk gets more cautious and tentative for both parties. We take smaller steps. Do more looking before we are leaping. Wait for the other party to make a few steps before we continue. And it takes strength. So yes, the feeling of safety (the other side of the tightrope) seems longer off. The truth is, the walk just got harder.

The lesson? Think of your job. When things are clicking, no big problems, you can make little decisions pretty easily. That's what it is like when Eros, Phileo, and Agape are appropriately directed at another person. But when the budget crunch hits, or things at work are about to blow up, your decisions get more tentative. You think a little more. You begin to question HOW you conduct your business and wonder if it is productive. The lesson? In a marriage, that crunch time is probably healthy. It is just unfortunate that we learn it from facing a crisis - affair, death of a child, etc. My lesson is that I am going to frequently examine the state of my Eros, Phileo, and Agape for my spouse.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">from AN:: Well, now, I'm not sure than any of us serve unconditionally. There are trade offs. There has to be.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes. You are right. But here is where my faith will get in the way of my argument. We can't do it because we are imperfect. But there does not HAVE to be trade offs. In my view, when the Holy Spirit is strong within us we CAN love unconditionally. We let God love THROUGH us and that IS perfect and unconditional. The proof? Have you met someone completely unloving? How about someone very loving? Let's just throw out Manuel Noriega and Mother Theresa out as examples. The fact is, the one is very far from unconditional love and the other is very near. It stands to reason that because the gap between the two is so large, that the one close MIGHT be able to achieve it. Unless it is asymptotic. And it may be. But it doesn't mean we can't get DARN CLOSE.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">from AN:: People like you confuse people like me! Having someone be unexpectedly nice to you can be very confusing and wonderful!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Darlin', that is what we are tying to do. Yes there are the Billy Grahams of the world who evangelize about Christ as Savior. But there are a whole lot of us gifted more in works than evangelism. Like me and your plumber. Sorry. Have to quote the Bible on this one.

Matthew 5:16 ... let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.

That is the summation of evangelism through action.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">from AN:: I know I will start to recipocate service in time, but I'm taking it easy and I'm doing that on purpose. My H needs to re earn my service to him.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Another excellent point. Go back to my tightrope analogy. The Agape love is MOST important. Your husband's affair strummed the tightrope. You set your own pace at this point because it is much more important that YOU DON'T FALL OFF IT. THAT would be the source of resentment and bitterness. Cancers of the soul - both of them. But DON'T stop walking. The healing and forgiveness comes from the struggle. Your mantra - Can't stop, but can't fall off either.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">from NOW:: are we to strive towards Agape love toward all people, and not just our spouses? If so, then what is to prevent the other two types of love from following, since as you said, the other two will follow if you choose Agape Love?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The answer - YES. Agape love is the unconditional love of service. It encompasses the little things, like holding the door for a woman with packages. It encompasses the big things, like SF for your husband when you don't feel like it. It encompasses the things we don't have time for, like spending an afternoon in a retirement home so they still feel loved. It encompasses the things we are scared of, like bundling a junkie in the back of your car and taking him to a hospital because he is bleeding out. It is the LOVE OF CHOICE. Satan has no place there. Follow this. Man was made from dirt. Woman was made from man. Both made of dirt. THEN God breathed in his Spirit giving them a soul. Satan has dominion (I mean power, not mastery) of the earthly things. But our bodies (including emotions Eros and Phileo) come from the earth where Satan has hold. But Agape? He can't touch that. Satan can only strum the tightrope with Eros and Phileo.

So what to do? If you show Agape love towards someone of the opposite sex, YES, Eros and Phileo may follow. Satan strumming your tightrope to hinder your tightrope walk. Maybe make you fall. What to do? Answer:

Luke 12:35 "Be dressed ready for service and keep you lamps burning, 36 like men waiting for their master to return from a wedding banquet, so that when he comes and knocks they can immediately open the door for him.

That passage is about vigilance for Christ's return. But it IMPLIES vigilance for Satan's attack. Revelation talks of Satan coming as the deceiver and it being difficult to tell him from Christ. Satan "sits on the first pew of the church" and the military tenet of knowing your enemy is embraced by Satan. It behooves you to know your stuff so you can fight him off. The armor of God states we should "shod our feet with the preparation of the Gospel of Peace." Why the feet? Knowing the Bible equips us for our walk through this world. And it is PREPARATION. The only piece of the armor of God (from Eph 6:13) that requires PREPARATION.

Please, I am not shouting at you NOW, I am just shouting in general because I am frustrated. I can't type it, so please consider the next statement to be me shouting...

WHY DO SO MANY PEOPLE THINK THAT THE BIBLE IS A REPAIR MANUAL TO BE USED WHEN SOMETHING BREAKS INSTEAD OF A TRAINING MANUAL TO BE STUDIED SO YOU ARE READY FOR A PROBLEM!?!?

Yes. You are right NOW. There IS a risk sowing Agape love to someone of the opposite sex. But there is a risk preaching the Good News in Communist China too. Yet people do it. Light your lamps and BE AWARE. If you sow Agape to me, and Eros gives you a wink, STOP. If it is on your heart that I still need the Agape service love, get your husband involved.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">from NOW:: THat is probably where I'm hung up right now. I fear showing Agape love towards other males, because that is how the whole darn thing started for me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">GOOD. Your tightrope just lost its gorilla and is still vibrating. Work on your boundaries. God understands. I would be VERY pleased with that statement if I was RH.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">from NOW:: Also, where does Love come from, really? Is it really our choice or is it a gift from God? And if it is a gift, and all we need do is ask, then why don't we? What if we do not have any desire to choose Agape? Then do we ask for the DESIRE? I personally think that is what we have to do....I have done that. I knew I didn't have the desire to love the way I should, knew that is what I needed, so the only thing I COULD do is ask for the desire.....and that prayer was answered. I'm just not sure it's as simple as CHOOSING....because that makes it in our own power to love, which I don't believe it is. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Eros and Phileo are FEELINGS. They come from the flesh. Sometimes feelings are a trial to strengthen us. Sometimes feelings are a temptation to trick us. Sometimes they are just enjoyable. But they DO come from God, as we are made in his image. Not that he causes them all the time, but he has equipped us to feel them. That is why they are in and of themselves not good or evil. They just are. The good and evil comes from our reactions to them.

Agape love comes from God. We "channel" it. Or refuse to. We don't even have to be willing.
Eph 6:8 because you know that the Lord will reward everyone for whatever good he does, whether he is slave or free.
The point of this (and there is a better verse, I couldn't find it. Too lazy today.) is that the Lord CAN punish or reward you utilizing others WHO MAY NOT BE BELIEVERS. Well rewarding may be through Agape love. So there you have an unbeliever who unknowingly walks in Agape love and it is coming from God. That is one of the reasons there are "good" people who don't believe.

You CAN and SHOULD ask for the desire to choose Agape. Ask God to change your heart. But he will help those who help themselves. And sometimes you have to just do. To often a Christian falls into this trap...

Show me (EXPLAIN) where you want me to go God, and I will willingly go there.

But in reality God works this way...

Do what I say and when you get there, I MAY explain it to you.

To Him, obedience is better than sacrifice. Here I go again, look at your children. Your parent/child relationship with them is a model of YOUR parent/child relationship with God. If you tell me that when your kids ask WHY all the time when you tell them to do something and it DOESN'T push your buttons, you need to repent for lying. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

But He LOVES Agape love. If you ask Him for the desire, he will gladly change your heart. But watch out, Satan will go after your Eros and Phileo sensing he is "losing" you. THAT is why it IS a choice and THAT is why it can be a HARD one.

And it is as SIMPLE as choosing. It just isn't always EASY.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Does God's love for us encompass all three "types" of love? If not, then are the other two really love at all?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here I go again. Look to your children. NOT your adult children (if you have any) but your children. What kind of love do you feel for them? I would HOPE not Eros. And Phileo would probably be unhealthy. You are their parent, NOT their buddy. Doesn't mean you can't be their friend, but they cannot have the sense that they are your equal while under your care. They have some equal rights to fair treatment, etc. But they are NOT your equal. What's left? Agape. My guess, God love FOR us is Agape. I personally feel a mix FOR HIM. But FROM Him? Agape. Kids. They are wisdom pills. All ya gotta do is look with an open mind.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">from NOW:: In my perception of things with RH and I, I thought I was the doting one. My entire life revolved around him. I always put his needs above my own.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK. Your point is YOU were walking in service and he wasn't meeting your needs (not walking in service) and YOU had the A. So how does that FIT with my if you want to love someone, serve them?

You were walking the tightrope. OM strummed it by charging against your Eros and Phileo accounts and you fell off. Case closed. Why did you fall when you were serving? You are not perfect. You didn't have your boundaries set. And you were probably resentful of RH's LACK of service. I would ask you to search your heart - towards the end before the affair WAS your service from Agape love, or was if from your sense of duty?

I don't think (and I haven't re-read the entire thread) I have said Agape service is PROOF against an affair. I think I have said that LACK of it can lead to it. I have also said that the CHOICE of providing it can fill the Eros and Phileo accounts. And I may be wrong, which is why I am floating the idea. You tell me, was your service REALLY Agape? With no resentment? Remember, it must be done JOYFULLY with no EXPECTATIONS. That is what I did for RAP. Sometimes expectations would creep in and it STOPPED working. But when I was joyous about it with no expectations, I could literally feel the Eros and Phileo growing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">from NOW:: At some point, I could not do it any more....could not and would not serve without receiving.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah. Harley's giver and taker. That is EXACTLY where I am now at. Look, I felt the Eros and Phileo growing because I was walking in Agape during the recovery of A#1. But it HURT. Sometimes it would be in the form of resentment and I would quench that as sin. But it HURT. I can't take it anymore, and that is one of the reasons I am now finished. It DOES take two to tango. You had an affair because your taker was neglected. Not an excuse, only a reason. If I were RH, it would hurt me, it was a bad CHOICE. But what if you did it maliciously? You probably did it with sorrow and pain. What if you had the mindset of "I am going to pay him out for the neglect." In some horrid indignant way? Bet that would have hurt him much more. Like I said before, this lesson is learned better late than never. What you did was unfortunate and plainly wrong. But Romans 8:28 this thing. Find the good, rejoice that you have a strong marriage. The BEST witnesses (in the religious sense of the word) are the ones who have overcome struggles. Think of the light your marriage will be - ESPECIALLY to your children. You can't erase what happened, but you can still count your blessings.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">from Suzet:: Like you, I also have a fear now to show agape love toward any male person if my H is not present ... I'm extremely cautious and careful now...even paranoid and sometimes I wonder if this is a good thing... I only allow male friends in my life now if the person is a friend of both me and my H and when both me and my H can share time with this person. The only men I feel save to 'serve' and support now (where my H is not present), is the men on these boards...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right on target. Back to the tightrope analogy. Here is Suzet walking out Agape and gaining confidence in her ability to do it. Then the gorilla hangs on the thing and shakes it (her A). Of COURSE her confidence is shaken. Before, she thought a gorilla would NEVER be on the tightrope with her. Now, she knows it can happen and is proceeding in her Agape walk accordingly. THAT is simply good boundaries.

I said it on another thread and it bears repeating.

Choices are the things you make so you can live with yourself.
Boundaries are the things you define so you can live with others.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">from Bob Pure:: Ah I dunno. Its easy to generalise based on our won experience, when in truth I think everybody has different reasons for having very similar affairs.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Or is it we explain it to ourselves so we can live with ourselves. Not that that is wrong, I mean we have to be able to live with ourselves. I think I disagree. I think the ALL stem from the state of the Phileo, Eros, and Agape accounts. I would ALMOST concede that everyone's threshold is different, but would bet that the setting of the threshold comes from the strength of the Agape walk by BOTH partners in the marriage. Other factors might contribute to the actual CHOICE to cheat - alcoholism, history of infidelity in the family, number of partners prior to the marriage, etc.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">from NOW:: And we will probably always find a way to take advantage of His forgiveness, yet He will never take it away. That's mind-boggling to me!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, look to the model, your kids. Or in this case, look to your parents. Now that you are an adult, have you ever looked back on what YOU were like as a kid? And wondered how did my parents put up with that load of cr@pola? Just as mind boggling. It is just Agape love.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">from NOW:: It takes a conscious effort and a whole lotta grace.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You got it. When all is said and done, it boils down to that. And the grace is the freebie.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">from Fishracer:: God's love for us is Agape. Eros and Phileo involve free will and behavior - which means that God allows us to decide who gets each.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are pretty much on my sheet of music, except for this. I think Eros and Phileo are feelings. The respond to sensory input (physical and spiritual) to the flesh and possibly the soul (mind). Only Agape is free will. The free will with Eros and Phileo is what to do WITH the feelings, not to have them or not.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">from NOW:: How would anyone KNOW they had this propensity until it happened? I think we ALL have it.
Disallow Agape love? That sounds like a refusal to submit to God's commandment.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not sure I agree. For this reason. If in giving it, you broke some other commandment, I think he would have preferred you to disallow it. He is fully aware of what you are capable of. And in your current situation, He will be compassionate if you are less fervent to follow some of his commands. Remember, he won't saddle you with a burden you cannot bear with Him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">from NOW:: It is obviously an expression of the Eros type of Love. Why is it in the Bible? I had heard that it mirrors God's love for us, as another facet of His love for us. I don't know if that's the case, just someone's opinion, or what....I never did understand the place of that in the Bible....just more questions! AARGH!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">One of my Bible's is a "Thompson Chain Reference Bible" This is right out of the analysis of the Book of Solomon.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">from TCR Bible
This book has been severely criticized because of its sensuous language. Its right to a place in the Bible has been defended by many godly people in all ages. Man have regarded it as a spiritual allegory, representing the holy affections existing between God and his chosen people or Christ and his church. It is an oriental poem, the ardent expressions of which can only be properly interpreted by a mature spiritual mind.

SYNOPSIS (The bridegroom represents Christ; the bride, the church).
1) Spiritual communion between the bride and the heavenly bridegroom 1:1-2:7
2) The bride misses her companion and seeks him 2:8-3:5
3) The ardent discourses of the bride and bridegroom on their mutual love and the graces of each other 3:6-8:14</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NCWalker's take? (Not saying you feel this, NOW) Why is it that so many feel that the Christian religion lacks passion? I said on another thread Jesus is the LION of the tribe of Judah. The Bible is a bloody book - FULL of passion, betrayal, heartache, etc. Why do so many churches worship stiff-necked and straight laced? God is a FERVENT God. Not out of control or chaotic, but fervent. Why SHOULDN'T a marriage between two Christians be passionate? THIS is a perfect example.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">from NOW:: How would anyone KNOW they had this propensity until it happened? I think we ALL have it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> then from Suzet:: Hmmmm...very good question! Before my inappropriate friendship, I never thought of myself as someone who have a propensity to allow EROS love to follow AGAPE love towards anyone else but my own H... I was the last person on earth I thought would get tempted.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Like I said before - the Bible is a training manual to be studied so you are ready. Why does anyone sin? Well it is a choice. But to choose wrong? Most likely, you didn't see it coming. Chance favors the prepared mind. It is all about boundaries, sanctity of the eyes, setting your mind and having your heart follow. And it is MUCH easier if you are Spirit filled. But it (any sin, not just adultery) can happen to anyone. Frequently does to me. But that is why. Didn't see it coming then didn't really care once embroiled. Praise God for his grace and mercy, for we would all surely perish.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">from AN:: I think there are a number of people who can say they will not cheat and mean it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is a hidden truth inside this statement. And that is the power of our tongues. Be careful what you say. It may come to pass. Be careful what you declare, it may be tempted. You would NEVER catch me saying "I am not going to cheat." At best I would say "With God's strength, He will protect me from the temptation to cheat."

As your Biblical knowledge and closeness with God increases, the requirements on you to practice what you preach go up. Ever read about Moses? He struck the rock in anger and was prevented from entering the promised land. Sound a little harsh? Maybe. But when you consider he had a personal relationship with God, more so than any of us today, it doesn't. Heck, Moses SAW God. And God said "don't do this." And Moses did it anyway. Talk about thumbing your nose.

I'll say it AGAIN. Look to your children. Are not you behavioral expectations of you children INCREASING as they get older and more cognizant? Responsibilities too. Comes with the territory of growing up. Same applies to us as Christians. Why do you think the "greats" fall so hard when they do? Jim Bakker comes to mind.

OK. Off my pulpit.

Hope this helps you all.

NCWalker

noodle,

You go girl! It is a process. Small insignicicant steps.

Like getting lost in a forest. At what point do you come to the realization that you are lost? If it was ONE step, then you could just take ONE step backwards and NOT be lost.

Those that avoid an affair are not entering the forest in the first place. If they did, THEY would get lost too.

NCWalker

way coolness NCWalker!

I read (somewhere) that not only do actions follow beliefs/feelings, but the inverse is also true.

Everyone knows being sad can cause a frown, being happy can cause a smile BUT it's also true that frowning can cause sadness and smiling can cause happiness!

I also read recently that if you're trying to get somebody to be more cooperative, more optimistic, you should suggest they move (get up and walk or sit in a different position). Because a person with a defeatist attitude not only has slouchy body language but changes in their posture/position can improve their outlook.

Something else I read (yup - I'm a nerd LOL) said if you can get somebody to participate or contribute to something in even a small way, because of the 'consistency principle' they will be more likely to continue to act in a way that ensures success of that person/project/whatever.

IMHO this is one of the reasons for the no contact in Plan B. The WS is going to take every opportunity to say and do mean things to the BS while they're still in the fog. Every time they do they are making it easier for themselves to be mean the next time, to continue for consistency's sake. Plan B isn't just to protect the BS's love for the BS, but to also protect the WS's love for the BS. If the WS isn't able to say or do mean things to the BS, because the BS refuses contact, the WS can't use this tactic to build their hatred for the BS.

I also read that an effective way for an adulterer to get over the addiction to the OP is to replace every positive or longing thought of the OP with a kind word or action towards, or kind thought about, the BS!

My WH must have been aware of this principle too since he once told me: "I remind myself to keep hating you"! He was purposely thinking, saying, and doing mean things to try to cancel out positive feelings for me. So he was (mis)applying the principle to ensure we wouldn't reconcile. He told me that he wouldn't know how to explain to others if we didn't go through with the divorce - that they would think he was 'weak'. I guess that's why the WS is so mean to the BS?

(Oh, and your science post was way interesting too. I was an atheist for 15 years, believed in evolution, but the more I learned about science the less I could believe in evolution.
I homeschool my daughters and they find it amazing that ANYONE believes in evolution. Of course they also find it incredible that anyone finds math or quantum physics interesting...)

<small>[ March 03, 2005, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: meremortal ]</small>

I very much agree MM,

Particularly with the bit about symbiotic relationship of action and reaction.

Noodle

NC:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are pretty much on my sheet of music, except for this. I think Eros and Phileo are feelings. The respond to sensory input (physical and spiritual) to the flesh and possibly the soul (mind). Only Agape is free will. The free will with Eros and Phileo is what to do WITH the feelings, not to have them or not. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK – let’s use my sitch and plug in the system!

When we were all friends; OM and WXW choose (or not) to have Agape love for each other just as God loves all of us.

When A was started (free will by both) they made a decision to “love” each other. What type of “love” was this? In my mind; it was mostly Eros, with some Phileo thrown in. (Remember that Agape was already in the mix.) However if Eros and Phileo are not based on decisions, but feelings, what prevents all of us from "falling in love" with various and numerous people, married or not? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

FR

OK Fish,

You trumped me. But let me define.

The Rros and Phileo ARE all about the feelings. Your OM and WXW HAD the feelings and chose to "go with the feelings."

You are right, there is free will involved with the Eros and Phileo. The CHOICE to act on the feelings or not.

I am not so sure that the FEELING of Phileo is a choice.

I am SURE the feeling of Eros is NOT a choice. It is essentially lust.

So I would say that *probably* your WXW was having a mediocore Agape to YOU. Then the OM filled up her Eros/Phileo with ENs and love language stuff and it overcame her.

Again, her CHOICE. So free will is there, but in the what do you do with the feelings, not whether or not you have them.

Clear as mud?

I am REALLY enjoying this thread.

All my best,

NCWalker

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> what prevents all of us from "falling in love" with various and numerous people, married or not? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Didn't answer your question, did I? I don't think anything. In my sitch, with OM#1, I think my W STILL loved me. She just loved him and herself MORE. It is kind of like conservation of energy. There is this fixed amount divided amongst these draws. Those you love most, get most. But that doesn't mean you don't love another.

I guess our boundaries (if they are good) keep us from some sexual love fest orgy kind of thing. I am a firm believer that As are all about bad boundaries. I know MY WWs were - in both cases.

NCW

OK NCWALKER:

I need your wisdom on MSCHLUTER & CINDY1970 Thread...it's getting heated...


Mike

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right, there is free will involved with the Eros and Phileo. The CHOICE to act on the feelings or not. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LOL! I had written this very thing on my previous post; but deleted it to see where you were going to go with this. Mud is clear about Eros & Phileo.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Didn't answer your question, did I? I don't think anything. In my sitch, with OM#1, I think my W STILL loved me. She just loved him and herself MORE. It is kind of like conservation of energy. There is this fixed amount divided amongst these draws. Those you love most, get most. But that doesn't mean you don't love another.

I guess our boundaries (if they are good) keep us from some sexual love fest orgy kind of thing. I am a firm believer that As are all about bad boundaries. I know MY WWs were - in both cases. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh you're going to get it now! Loving more than one person may insight 2x4's. You don't live in Utah do you??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I consider boundaries to be the same as values - would you agree?

Fish,

OH NO. I am not saying polygamy is OK. But the WS CAN love both the FS and the OP. I don't think my WW was indifferent (the opposite of love) to me when she was with the OM. Just that she loved him MORE. Or the sum of the love for him and her selfishness.

But Phileo. Yeah. We can have that for a bunch of people. I do. And when I am forced with the (unfortunate) choice to PICK between the people I feel Phileo love for, it goes to the ones I feel it the MOST for.

My sons first...
My immediate family...
My close friends...

And so on.

(Sorry. Wife doesn't fit in there right now. Don't really know where she is. There is a woman living in my house, but it ain't my wife.)

On to boundaries vs. values...

I think our values help define our boundaries. To me, a boundary defines what I am willing to accept in others. And that bar is usually lower than what I am willing to do.

Take cursing for example. I worked in a factory and there was a lot of general cursing. Strewn in to basic sentence structure like some audible punctuation mark. Against my VALUES, but not against my BOUNDARIES as I didn't "fight" it. Meaning I just accepted it as part of my work environement.

But it isn't acceptable at home. The bar is a little higher there.

Boundaries and values are DEFINATELY related. But I don't think they are the same.

Would not an acceptable definition of a hypocrite be one whose boundaries were at a higher standard than his values?

NCW

(REALLY enjoying this thread.) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

OK..

On my Joint thread you were not led one bit. I found your post not only offensive but downright nasty...

JMHO

this brought tears to my eyes.

NOW,

:::::My belief that humans are weak is not condescending. It is what I believe, spiritually. That is the reason for our need of a Lord and Savior.

You are engaging in a form of self justification over your own failings by making everyone guilty of what you did. It's a way of closing the gap between those who you fear are morally superior to yourself. But that's just in your head - those who have not committed adultery do not have to answer for it.


:::::Are you without sin?

Like having extramarital sex and lying and betraying my best friend you mean? Actually I have little to be ashamed of in my life, apart from converting a number of people to being Jehovah's Witnesses! It's in a totally different category to your sin. I expect I damaged more people by my sin than you damaged with your adultery - my sin was motivated by the misconception that I was helping people. Your sin was motivated by the knowledge that you were helping yourself. What matters most? The motive or the damage? Actually I don't believe in God - but I hear he/she is fairly understanding of adultery if King David is anything to go by.

::::If so, then go ahead and cast those stones.

You cast the stones. I am deflecting them.

:::The "cringing" stems from the knowledge that I once sat where you are....I knew without a doubt (LMAO!) that I was not that weak. And I was wrong.

I know that you think you are a model for humanity, but you are not. We are not all the same. Quite apart from religion, people will shun infidelity for other reasons besides breaking God's laws. I am honest enough to examine why I wouldn't cheat and never have - I am a very uptight, anxious person who worries about everything. To me the rewards of unfaithfulness would never justify the stress. Plus my self worth wouldn't stand it. I value my belief system too much. No, not a belief in God but in the rightfulness of things. I have a my own moral code - and I don't mean sex, I mean in all my dealings with others.

So I "cringe" when FWSs accuse BSs of the potential for infidelity. Pointing the finger at what others might do, won't lessen your accountability. Remove the rafter from your own eye and stop looking for slinters in the eyes of the innocent.

cn walker: I have to confess to not knowing the various forms of love you talked about in your reply to me. JWs talked a lot about agape love but that hasn't helped me understand your post as their agape love is conditional love. Conditional on doing what they tell you to do. I am still really excited about your "serving" concept - I think it's HUGE! I have thought about it continually since the penny dropped - and I think I see more potential in it than you do. But I'm too busy to talk more about it now. I just think it's unbelievably brilliant. I can't speak highly enough of what you've unearthed. In time I hope to point out to you the nuances of your brilliance! My mind has been doing back flips with it. Yes, I'm excited about it. Well done!

AN

Anyname,

You are entitled to your opinion. I am sorry if I offended you.


NOW

Just wanted to say how incredibly fascinating I have found this entire thread. I tripped into it yesterday afternoon at work, so I printed it out to take home and read (ended up being 43 pages!!). I spent several hours reading and re-reading, even my MIL was intrigued and will be reading it today (her husband has passed away, although he was FWS many years ago).

I personaly believe all this makes 100% sense, but then again I am not the one who needs it most right now. WH is stuck in his "I love you but I'm not in love with you" mode and isn't open to any thoughts or literature I may present.

KUDOS!!

-Christine