Are Cindy (I thought we agreed to not call her that and not FWW) and OM still in contact? When was their last contact? What will a letter change?

I don't know if this is an issue or not. I could send a letter to my X telling her that I will only talk to her about the kids, but that doesn't change the fact that I've only talked to her about the kids for a long time and it's pretty much public knowledge that we only talk about the kids. IMHO if contact has ceased for a considerable amount of time and if I remember correctly you had said something about her doing it verbally, then I, personnally, don't see a lot of use in it.

As to the employment issue, that's a little trickier cause y'all do have to eat and cloth those babies. I'm gonna have to think on that one.....

Mschluter,

I don't think that quiting her jobs is a good idea. You must have your reasons but since (if I'm not mistaken) OM doesn't work there then the only good that can come out of it is that you have her in sight more time. But that is only a temporary solution. What happend when you go back to work? I had to deal with a similar issue. FWW went started to work last month, she is surrounded by men I don't know and she can call OM if she wants to. I felt very unconfortable, but what can I do about it? Just pray that she is strong and commits to NC. Wish you the very best to both of you.

NSSM.

Cindy,

The question is not "Are Ms boundaries reasonable"..his behavior is not in question.

The question is, are you willing to do whatever it takes, for as long as it takes, to recover this marriage.

If the answer is no..then admit it.

If the answer is yes..then you have a couple of letters to write, haven't you?

One NC to OM.

One of resignation.

You created the need for these letters, and your reluctance to face the music [not to be confused with punative action..no, this is purely natural consequence] suggests that you are not entirely sincere..not entirely remorsefull.

If that is the case..the new question, is why should M tolerate your behavior in this M any further?

Burning the A bridges is not up for debate or negotiation. It is a prerequisite for recovery.

So, what is this heel digging about?

Noodle

LostHusband :


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are Cindy (I thought we agreed to not call her that and not FWW) and OM still in contact? When was their last contact? What will a letter change? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are Once again correct and I am sorry. Cindy tells me she is not in contact with Om and that it really is over between them. I even heard the OM tell her to please not call him anymore because he thought it was done with and that he is tired of the Drama or just tired of me...LOL

I feel the letter is still all part of the process according to MB priciples, It will not stop Cindy from calling Om and it really is no Guarentee at all. But it is part of the process.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">IMHO if contact has ceased for a considerable amount of time and if I remember correctly you had said something about her doing it verbally, then I, personnally, don't see a lot of use in it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">CINDY <--- See I used her name.

Cindy has not had any contact with OM in about a week or so. The last time she saw Om was last Saturday when he drove her to her Dads and she then called him twice that night and then again on Sunday to let him know she was returning home. I still don't understand her calling him to tell him this, was she looking for his approval or was he supposed to say " Please Cindy I love you don't go back " <--- My Sarcastic side Also that very Monday she wrote him a 3 page letter and still has trouble telling me what she wrote...This is not 100% Honesty..This to me is " I will tell you what you already know " <----- Edited to add Letter info.

Again to me Cindy should write the letter as part of the process to show her true commitment to this Marriage and not just look at me and say " well I'm here aint I " So is the dog here and it has no choice. LOL



</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As to the employment issue, that's a little trickier cause y'all do have to eat and cloth those babies. I'm gonna have to think on that one.....
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree as well, But this is where Cindy makes all of her calls from. This is where she sits down and writes the OM 3 page letters even though she talked to him already five times that day. It just makes me sick that she can write this guy huge long letters but has trouble even writing me a post it note...




notsosadman28 :

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> she is surrounded by men I don't know and she can call OM if she wants to. I felt very unconfortable, but what can I do about it? Just pray that she is strong and commits to NC. Wish you the very best to both of you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know Cindy can go on to her next job and do the same thing and even if she were to be home all day she could do the same thing, The point is a ws can and will find new ways to make contact if they so wish, It's the fact that if they do whatever it takes to save the M then they will do whatever it takes.

I have read your story and believe it or not we have a huge amount in common, I would like to chat with you through email as well.

Good luck with your FWW my friend.





noodle :


All I can say to you NOODLE is " Thank You "

I know she is serious but her actions are becoming less and less, even today when I told her I was having a rough day, she hung up on me and before she did, she said well then go have a bad day by yourself... " Not very supportive if you ask me " and I was not beating her up with the A

<small>[ March 03, 2005, 05:49 PM: Message edited by: Mschluter ]</small>

MS,

I have read all this thread and don't really have anything to contribute. You are getting fine advice.

One thing (on another thread) you mentioned was you admired my spiritual walk. I appreciate that, but you can have it too. It is pretty easy.

MONTHS ago, I explained it to another MBer with a concert hall analogy.

Follow this link The Concert Hall

It is the third post down.

Ask any questions HERE and I will answer them.

NCW

I have an email account for MB sad_man_28 at hotmail.com. Feel free to e-mail me whenever you want.

Best wishes,


NSSM.

ncwalker :

Thank you for coming by... I will gladly ask a science and God question and then you can write your thesis on it here... ROFLMAO

I saw your last post..My god do you type in your sleep

Michael,

I can hear your frustration & let me say, my H & I went through this part of it too. Every time I would tell my H I was having a bad day, he would get this look on his face & tell me, I'm here, doesn't that mean anything? His point was that if he didn't want to be here, he wouldn't be. And my point was, Just reassure me! Both of us were frustrated.

My H also did not write a NC letter. He didn't understand the point to it. He was of the notion that if he wanted to contact her, he would, regardless of what any letter had to say. I explained my point to him that it was part of the process & would be a huge sign for me that he was serious about this NC. He didn't write the letter. And it's been over a year.

Cindy might be thinking that she doesn't know how to help you. I know my H was like that. He still doesn't know how to deal w/it sometimes. When I face triggers, there for a while, it was a lot, right around Christmas, he didn't know what to say, what to do, to take my pain away. WS's cause a lot of pain to their BS & then when they finally face what they have done, sometimes the guilt is so overriding that they don't know how to handle it. It's very possible that Cindy didn't know how to react to your rough day.

Cindy, my suggestion, if this is how you're feeling, is listen to him. Listen to him express his feelings & then reassure him that you aren't going anywhere. The next time he is having a rough day, maybe ask him how you can help. What does he need from you at that moment to reassure him that NC is still in place & that you do love him?

I don't know what else to tell you at this point, so I'll end here, but just wanted you both to know that we're all in your corner & will help you as much as we can so you guys can heal from this & grow in your M, loving each other more & more every day.

Love in Christ,
Y

OK. Against my better judgment, since I don't really feel led at this point, I am going to point out a few things.

And this will NOT be sugar-coated. You both are adults.

Having said that - IT IS TIME TO START ACTING THAT WAY.

===================
Mike,

Payback for an affair is NOT a prison sentence. You just can't ask for that. You have two choices...

1) Leave her for good.
2) Stay with her and be understanding.

That's it, buddy. You cannot EXPECT anything. Or what I really mean is you cannot force her to meet your expectations. If she does, fine. If she doesn't LEAVE.

Sound harsh? Sound a little extreme? It's not. If it is bothering you it PROBABLY means you need to re-examine what your expectations are.

It is not a perfect world. You need to face some facts. And the facts are...

She PROBABLY still has pretty strong feelings for this guy. There are soul-ties involved with the intimate act of intercourse. My W's 1st A took MONTHS for her to get over. She sometimes STILL has a soft spot for OM#1. Get over it. It is not fair and it sucks. Been there, done that.

What part of love your wife as you love yourself (from the Bible) do you NOT understand?

She is a VASE, not a crock-pot. She is to be placed on a pedestal. You cannot expect her to compartmetalize and shut down what she has been through. She is a WOMAN. She is NOT wired that way. If that is what you want, turn gay and find some GUY to marry.

She wronged you, that is true, but she is a woman and that requires nurturing. Know why God gave you the ability to compartmentalize your feelings? Because you are supposed to marry a woman and He knew you would NEED THE SKILL. Know why? Because she IS what she FEELS.

Be patient with her. Speak well to her. First step is YOURS, that is what being a man is all about.

When you die and face judgement, NOBODY is going to ask a single thing about Cindy. They are going to look at you and say "Were you the best husband you could be?" Think about that.

She is a vase to be nutured and protected. She doesn't OWE you anything. You are supposed to be a good husband. Period. Kind. Caring. Reserved. Quick to listen, slow to anger. Noble. Understanding. All the things that are easy for a guy to do because of how we are wired.

SERVE HER. Read my other thread.

If SHE doesn't hold up her end of the bargain, CUT HER LOOSE. But you better be SURE and I mean with absolutely NO DOUBT that YOU did your best before you do, for you will answer for that.

YOU are the spiritual head of the house. YOU have been in the military in command. YOU know what it means when I say the mistakes of your subordinates are YOUR mistakes. Same applies in you family. Be a man, treat her right. Work on your understanding of her feelings, work on your anger, put her needs first.

==============

Cindy,

What are you, NUTS? Do you have any idea how hard infidelity is for a MAN to swallow?

Look at nature among the mammals. It is usually one man with a PACK of women. We are mammals. Heck, even in the Bible it talks about men having harems.

Go read Proverbs 31. Is this YOU? It sounds like a big requirement. There is no list like this for men, but HIS list is actually HARDER. He is to put you first, no matter what. He is the spiritual head of you. You are under his authority. But Biblically, he is supposed to serve you.

And he is trying, but you have hamstrung him. You let someone else play in HIS garden. He may not have been the most attentive husband. I have know idea if he was meeting your needs. But that was HIS garden. You were married to him. Men are VERY territorial. Just walk a non-neutered male dog and watch how often he stops to pee. Biblically, he is to honor you. And that is a tall order, what with all the messages and images that the secular world likes to feed us men. And you go and do THAT?

He most likely would have preferred you burned him at a stake. It would have been less painful.

So what have you done? More than been with someone else, you have stolen his masculinity. He feels now like he is less of a man. Men are PROUD of their women. Men want to DEFEND their women. Men won't stand for their women to be dishonored. And you have thrown away his reason to do so. Why? You may have your reasons and he eventually needs to KNOW them. He didn't force your choice, and he MUST have contributed to your mental state that allowed you to do this in some way, or you would not have done it. He will have to own it, but right now, HE HURTS.

You need to "praise his name at the gates" (from Prov 31). He needs to FEEL LIKE he is powerful and you NEED him. You need to tend his PRIDE. Nurture it and repair the damage you have done. But be careful. PRIDE is a dangerous thing. It truthfully is a sin, but the MASTERY of it is defining to a man. More so than you would necessarily understand.

Make him feel like a man. It is the LEAST you can do after stripping it away. He should NOT be the "boss" of you. That is not healthy. He should lead your family with a servants heart. But guess what - whatever anchors he had about himself as a man and the status of a family, YOU have selfishly stripped away with your infidelity.

He SHOULD forgive, regardless of what you do. That is the true Christlike behavior of someone who has been transgressed against. HOWEVER. That does not mean YOU should not atone for what you have done. That is ALSO the Christlike behavior of one who transgresses.

There is a wounded child inside that is saying "I want things my way because YOU wronged me." And it IS a child. And it is NOT an appropriate response. It is CHILDISH. But you have to ask yourself, what do YOU want?

This is an emergency situation. His sense of reality has been shattered. My advice - if he is asking for something childish and you feel it won't really hurt you or the family - DO IT. You must understand he is fighting a battle on MANY fronts. There is trust you need to earn back. He is probably SCARED of what you will do. If it is not a big deal, and only hurting your pride, what is the harm of sucking it up and doing it?

Don't be some pansy of a woman who hangs on her man and suffers his indignation because you can't survive on your own without him. That is not healthy. But what IS healthy now? You are in the aftermath of an affair. If there were a time for desperate measures, this is it. Throw him a few bones and appeal to the hurtful kid when it doesn't cross YOUR boundaries. It will help HIM calm his emotions and be more reasonable.

If the two of you don't hang together, you will most assuredly hang separately.

NCWalker

Mike,

I think there is something here that NC is trying to tell you. You have every right to expect a NC letter and more importantly for her to have No contact. Since her work is not involved with OM, it seems a bit punitive to ask her to quit, although I know you must feel awful given that her co-workers supported her affair. HOWEVER, IF she is sincere about rebuilding this marriage, then she will PROTECT you, by talking to them and setting them straight about you and what she feels now about what she had done.

But, having said all of that, you can demand all you want, but it will make little difference if her heart is not focused on you. You can expect all you want, it will not make any difference if she does NOT see the pain of this betrayal. You can hope all you want and it will not make any difference, if she does not see hope.

You only can do what YOU can do. So step back and realize MOST if not all of the healing will have to take place within you. She could help some if she so choses. She could support you if she so chooses, but she cannot heal you.

She can in concert with your efforts rebuild this marriage, but again these are her choices to make. The affair has only been over for a short time. It continued for a lengthy period of time. Perhaps since it has been going on in starts and fits for a period of time she really is NOT in withdrawal. I would guess she would miss the excitement of it, the tension of it, and yes the drama of it. But perhaps not.

You are about to find out why Harley is so keen on plan B to preserve love in the hopes of recovery. Recovery is hard, and it requires alot of love, because much of it you have to do yourself, and it is lonely work. How lonely depends on Cindy. But, it will be anyhow.

Must go hope something I said will help.

God Bless,

JL

ncwalker :

Ok first of all, I have a huge amount of respect for you NC but your post to me is harsh and uncalled for, You attack me with a lot of manhood intentions and I find that appaling coming from a guy who seems so smart. But I will answer your thread with an Open heart.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Payback for an affair is NOT a prison sentence. You just can't ask for that. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Where in any of my threads do I make it seem like a prison. This really bothers me because this is a statement Cindy has used while SERVING OM and not me. I have some clear boundries that I expect her to follow, yes but considering the situation I feel they are fair and have been openly discussed with Cindy.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">1) Leave her for good.
2) Stay with her and be understanding. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will choose Number 2 for $800.00 Alex...

Of course I am trying to be understanding but it is hard when you have been so badly hurt as I have been. I am not saying that Cindy does not feel some pain for her choices but at this stage in the M i do not throw her A up in her Face, I have not asked her a lot of the deatils in weeks. All I ever wanted was the truth and she gave it to me, and of course THE CHILD in me is still having some issues with trust and her being honest. <---- your Childish analogy bothers me..


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's it, buddy. You cannot EXPECT anything. Or what I really mean is you cannot force her to meet your expectations. If she does, fine. If she doesn't LEAVE.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do not and have not forced cindy to meet any of my expectations. I have told her this is what I expect in return and if you feel you can't do these things then maybe it's best you not come back and maybe find residence somewhere else. This may sound Harsh but so is the damage she did to me and the children. MB principles state that there are certain processes you shopuld follow and I feel I have been doing exactly that.

I do not feel I have been over zealous in my needs being met. I do not make her come home and write 100 times I am sorry for being a WW..

I want honesty, even if that means she does not really want to be here. Plain and simple.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sound harsh? Sound a little extreme? It's not. If it is bothering you it PROBABLY means you need to re-examine what your expectations are.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have very few expectations of Cindy.

1) Be Radically Honest

2) Zero Contact with OM One, and Zero contact with OM Two.

3) Write a NC letter

So as you can see I don't have that many expecations of Cindy. You make me feel like I have this list of 1000 things she needs to do to earn my forgivness or to save the Marriage. Not true at all



</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She PROBABLY still has pretty strong feelings for this guy. There are soul-ties involved with the intimate act of intercourse. My W's 1st A took MONTHS for her to get over. She sometimes STILL has a soft spot for OM#1. Get over it. It is not fair and it sucks. Been there, done that.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What you may not reqalize is Cindy and I have had more then 6 d-day if not more. She has told me that she has strong ties to Om one but that she does not love him and even at this moment she feels those feelings slipping further away each day. Now if she is being Radically honest then she is telling the truth, if not then she is breaking 1 of my expectations.

So tell me, what expectations should I have? NONE...You are making it sound like we BS should just say " hey come screw up our lives some more and please we promise we won't hold you accountable and we will forgive you everytime because thats what God say's to do.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What part of love your wife as you love yourself (from the Bible) do you NOT understand? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well as I have said to you on more then just this occassion, I do not read the Bible as much as I should and in time I will, but right now I have my own issues with God and I will not be Taunted into reading it either.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She is a VASE, not a crock-pot. She is to be placed on a pedestal. You cannot expect her to compartmetalize and shut down what she has been through. She is a WOMAN. She is NOT wired that way. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I may not be perfect and I will gladly admit that I have not treated Cindy like a vase in a very long time. And that is one demon that I work on everyday. You use the word compartmetalize like I am some type of Dictator in my own home. Lets get the facts out here clear so you can better write on here.

Cindy has her first Affair One month after we are Married and while she is carrying my son..

Cindy then tries to start an Affair with another EBF that works at the local supermarket.

Cindy then runs into OM One and starts a very long and harsh 9 month Affair

Cindy then in dec of last yr goes out with the girls and flirts with the waiter

Cindy then goes out again with the girls in Oct of 04 and slips the waiter her work number so he can call her. She tells me this was nothing to worry about, then why the secrecy.. She told me it was just to see if he would call and of course he did.

So please tell me what I am missing that you do not understand.


NCWALKER Wrote:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If that is what you want, turn gay and find some GUY to marry. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This statement really has me on fire and I feel it was very uncalled for and very Rude..But since you asked... Are you avialable <----- LOL

In truth your above statement in my book was very harsh and very uncalled for and I take very strong offense to it like any man would. You have shown a side of you that worries me and that maybe you are starting to think maybe you are higher on the BS pedastool then the rest of us..



I am so upset over your post that I have to walk away and will return to finish answering your Bull**** post ...

One other thing...

I was a great leader in the military and I lost men under my command because of the job we were asked to do. so unti you have sat down and written a letter to a loved one who's son, Daughter, Husband you have no right to put my military standing on this post.

I understand command better then most and would never wish it on any one person. I still have nigtmares and still work through those demons.

Your GOD put me in a situation and I will work through it in my way and my time. I still respect your thoughts and your concerns but some of your comments were a little to rough and I think if you step back and hold that Bible you hold so high you will see my point clearly..

I'm sorry if I offend anyone but this post has me very upset. I am ready to leave MB for good because of these comment especially the gay one..VERY UNCALLED FOR IN MY BOOK....

Will finish this post later

^ BUMP

NC,

I dont agree with your post and I dont agree with with MS for being angry at you either. This is an open forum and when we post here we expose ourselves to all kinds of comments, but then again I'm not MS so I respect his feelings.

I agree with you when you say that BH have their "macho" ego hurt by the WS A, but with your comments you are not helping him. What I read (correct if I'm wrong) is that you are telling him that if he is a real "macho" then he will be able to let go and heal. It is not that ez and maybe it is not the right way to go. Maybe I'm wrong and being in a similar situation as he is I see the things the way he sees them and not yours. I will only address this particular point of your reply:

You are supposed to be a good husband. Period. Kind. Caring. Reserved. Quick to listen, slow to anger. Noble. Understanding. All the things that are easy for a guy to do because of how we are wired.

I don't know you guys but I believe that men are not wired to be kind, caring, quick to listen, slow to anger and understanding. If anything, it is the complete opposite. Again, maybe I'm wrong since the only man I really know is myself and I find my self doing a great effort to be as you think men are naturally wired to be, and I'm pretty sure I'm doing that effort because I got a good taste of reality when I found out my W was having multiple A. Otherwise I would still be the same as*hole as b4. Best of luck to you all.

<small>[ March 03, 2005, 09:09 PM: Message edited by: notsosadman28 ]</small>

MS and Cindy,

Please don't leave MB. This is an open forum and people have the right to express themselves, just as we have the right not to take it personally. I know it is hard but in the end it is good to hear as many voices as we can, then we can be more certain that we analyzed all the options b4 making important decisions as we are doing right now. Please accept all replies and take them for what they ultimately are, opinions from complete strangers who just happen to have gone through what we are going now. Again, please stay. Don't quit, you need us just as much as we need you.

M,

I read your list of expectations. Sounds like you are asking for too little..and getting even less if that is POSSIBLE to imagine.

Let's see. Uh could you [Cindy] stop having sex with other men..and leading them to believe that you are available for sex..pretty please. With frosting. Cherries optional.

AND! Could you not have any more contact with the men you have already had sex with.

Since I'm in demanding mode..could you also write a letter to formalise this..and if you wouldn't mind humoring me..I'd sure like to be told the truth.

I mean, get real.

How about a public apology with the women she has slandered you and drug your name through the mud with as an audience?

Followed by her formally cutting ties with them for supporting such lewd and vicious behavior?

For a start.

This is hardly demanding that she crawl over broken glass. This sort of thing is the BARE minimum. Recoveries that are shouldered by the BS rather than the WS fail. Resentment takes hold. I can't imagine why <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> .

Time for Cindy to decide whether she wants to really do the work or not. If so, time to roll up her dainty little sleeves and grab a shovel. This vase has some amends to make.

Since when is it the responsibility of the offended party to coddle the perpetrator? If Cindy truly wants to change her status, she will have to first change her behavior. Ceasing to actively engage in adultery is NOT worthy of applause...caring for the wounds you have inflicted and facing your crimes and their consequences head on is.

Noodle

Mike,

Touched a nerve have I?

That’s OK. I have what, read maybe 20 of your posts and talked to you twice? And I pushed the buttons that easily? Didn’t even come out and directly say anything. Just hinted around. And voila – angry Mike.

Know why? Spirit knows spirit. I have anger problems. Or had them. Got them within reasonable levels years ago. Know what? It was a HUGE battle during my attempted recovery to keep that in check.

What you just did, what you just felt, you have to watch for THAT. I am glad Cindy is back home and you guys are working on your marriage. But it has been VERY soon after D-Day. It has been VERY soon after her promise of NC. A little too soon to be popping the cork off the champagne.

Military analogy again. Your movement to contact recon mission might be done, but you gotta make it to the extraction point now. You are not safe yet.

If a relative stranger can bring all that up with a few comments, what are you going to do when SHE is in a bad mood because her emotions are all askew over the OM?

You have to process the pain. She has to process the withdrawal of the OM. Anger doesn’t have any place in the situation.

Enough on the soapbox. Let’s smoke the peace pipe.

OK. On to your responses.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Where in any of my threads do I make it seem like a prison. This really bothers me because this is a statement Cindy has used while SERVING OM and not me. I have some clear boundries that I expect her to follow, yes but considering the situation I feel they are fair and have been openly discussed with Cindy.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You didn’t. And you probably aren’t. It was a guess based on MY WW and how she felt about boundaries that were reasonable. She could not follow them either. Things like don’t go out to bars into the wee hours without me. Not surprised she feels like it is a prison. Every couple has unwritten rules of conduct. Yours should be tighter now based on her behavior. That is reasonable. But the selfish kid in HER felt imprisoned BEFORE. Be FIRM, but be respectful to her and DON’T be angry. You will make it hard on her. She is back in the home, that's Plan A, not B. That means you play nice.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> All I ever wanted was the truth and she gave it to me, and of course THE CHILD in me is still having some issues with trust and her being honest. <---- your Childish analogy bothers me..</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And it should be having issues. Trust was breached. Sorry if the analogy bothers you. What I mean is there is a child (in all of us) that comes to the surface when the emotions get out of control. What I am saying is we act irrational over small things when we get like that. We don’t listen. We lash out. Like a child in a temper tantrum. I am not saying YOU are childish.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I do not and have not forced cindy to meet any of my expectations. I have told her this is what I expect in return and if you feel you can't do these things then maybe it's best you not come back and maybe find residence somewhere else. This may sound Harsh but so is the damage she did to me and the children. MB principles state that there are certain processes you shopuld follow and I feel I have been doing exactly that.

I do not feel I have been over zealous in my needs being met. I do not make her come home and write 100 times I am sorry for being a WW..

I want honesty, even if that means she does not really want to be here. Plain and simple.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It doesn’t sound harsh to me. It sounds reasonable. But WE have anger problems, remember. Things that are NORMAL sounding to us may be harsh sounding to people without them. What you are asking for is fair and just. HOW did you ask her for it? With respect and care, or with biting words and callous feelings? I just want you to carefully look at yourself. This is not playtime, and I know you know that. I want to get your attention because you need to double-check and triple-check how you are treating her for two reasons.

(1) If she truly is ready for recovery, she will be beating herself up quite a bit and a little compassion (not GIVING IN, but your TONE AND BODY LANGUAGE) will go a long way for her.
(2) So recently out of the relationship with the OM, the demons will be very strong in tempting her back. Don’t help them.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
1) Be Radically Honest

2) Zero Contact with OM One, and Zero contact with OM Two.

3) Write a NC letter

So as you can see I don't have that many expecations of Cindy. You make me feel like I have this list of 1000 things she needs to do to earn my forgivness or to save the Marriage. Not true at all</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But you checked! I don't know what you say to her. But you went back and re-evaluated to make sure I wasn't right. DON'T stop that. Know what else? Make SURE when you feel like she is meeting these, let her know. You don't have to get all gushy and fake sounding, just tell her you realize it is hard and you appreciate it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So tell me, what expectations should I have? NONE...You are making it sound like we BS should just say " hey come screw up our lives some more and please we promise we won't hold you accountable and we will forgive you everytime because thats what God say's to do.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not saying that at all. In fact, I am not living it. I am getting a DV. I am saying be UNDERSTANDING that this will be a struggle for her. I am saying you can't hold this transgression over her head for the rest of her life. It can't be a trump card you pull out in every future argument. That will take practice on your part because it hurts. I am saying watch how you treat her, and it sounds like you are.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NCW: What part of love your wife as you love yourself (from the Bible) do you NOT understand?

MS: Well as I have said to you on more then just this occassion, I do not read the Bible as much as I should and in time I will, but right now I have my own issues with God and I will not be Taunted into reading it either.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When you quoted that, I thought GEEZ, did I type that? Sorry. That IS a little harsh sounding. It didn't flow from the paragraph above and I can see where that one got you ticked. The point I (poorly) tried to make was her behavior, no matter how bad, cannot be an excuse for YOUR behavior. What I wrote did really come out harsh there. It is like this, you are supposed to love her as yourself. (Ephesians, I think.) You can't change that outlook because of her behavior. Because when you are held accountable, they won't even bring up her behavior. They will just bring up God's law and what you did. You own your behavior separate from hers. Treat her the best you can for YOU. Man. Sorry again. I DO really feel bad for that one.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I may not be perfect and I will gladly admit that I have not treated Cindy like a vase in a very long time. And that is one demon that I work on everyday. You use the word compartmetalize like I am some type of Dictator in my own home. Lets get the facts out here clear so you can better write on here.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No. I use the word compartmentalize because we (men) seem to much more gifted at this than women do. I mean that we have a MUCH easier time arranging and assigning the feelings to the events, whereas the fairer sex tends to let these things blur and bleed over into other parts of their lives. Like when you are fighting with the wife and the phone rings. I don't know about you, but I can shut down all the emotions in an INSTANT, answer the phone, conduct THAT conversation normally and pleasantly, then jump back in with the wife and take the emotions off pause. We tend to expect others to be like us. Just human nature. Her feelings for the OM, for what she has done to you and kids, about herself, etc. are going to be a smeary, messy blur and I am warning you about not letting this frustrate you. Because it will.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NCW: If that is what you want, turn gay and find some GUY to marry.

MS: This statement really has me on fire and I feel it was very uncalled for and very Rude..But since you asked... Are you avialable <----- LOL</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It goes with your expectations. If you expect her to NOT react to this like a woman. Or like a WS. With all the withdrawal and emotions and messiness that will come with it, you should have married a guy. Then you could have duked it out and just been friends later. Simple. Sorry if it got you mad. But at least you have a LOL there. And yes, I will be available soon. LOL.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was a great leader in the military and I lost men under my command because of the job we were asked to do. so unti you have sat down and written a letter to a loved one who's son, Daughter, Husband you have no right to put my military standing on this post.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">C'mon Mike. I am not making a dig at your military career. Here is what I said.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YOU are the spiritual head of the house. YOU have been in the military in command. YOU know what it means when I say the mistakes of your subordinates are YOUR mistakes. Same applies in you family. Be a man, treat her right. Work on your understanding of her feelings, work on your anger, put her needs first.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It goes with the concept of being the spiritual head of the house. In the Bible, the man, the father of the kids in a household, is accountable for the spiritual welfare of his family. When you get to heaven, you will be held to not only YOUR spiritual growth, but that of your wife and kids too. It is a heavy burden. I have heard women complain about good old Proverbs 31. Complain that it seems like the men get off scott free because there is no equivalent list for them. Not so. They are the spiritual head. My military analogy is because I know you served and it is the exactly the same thing as being a platoon leader. If one of your privates goes out and does something stupid, guess who hears about it - YOU. Guess whose chops the ole bird busts, yours.

The last thing I am saying is more a warning than anything. You have a tough road ahead. I have been down it. You are very blessed in that your wife seems to want to work at this. Mine did not. I tried a few different tactics between my various D-Days. The one that I could live with, the one that I could say I did my best, was exactly that. I sucked it up and acted like a man. I WORKED at understanding her feelings. I managed my anger in extreme situations (ask my boys). And I put her needs first. HOWEVER - I set my boundaries and was respectful, but firm. Did it work? No. We are divorcing. If I had to do it again I would do it EXACTLY the same way. Why? It was in line with Biblical principles and I can live with myself. No second guessing. It is clear in my mind the the failure of the marriage was her CHOICE. That is what I am getting at.

Whew.

Come see me and we'll drink a few beers, duke it out, and be friends later.

NCWalker

NSS28,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I said:: You are supposed to be a good husband. Period. Kind. Caring. Reserved. Quick to listen, slow to anger. Noble. Understanding. All the things that are easy for a guy to do because of how we are wired.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Then you said:: I don't know you guys but I believe that men are not wired to be kind, caring, quick to listen, slow to anger and understanding. If anything, it is the complete opposite.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK. The thing I said is what a good husband is supposed to be. You are saying men in general are the opposite. And you are wondering what I meant by wired.

Here is the point. And let's look at quick to listen, slow to anger. That is probably the line where you have most of your issues. Are men quick to anger? Some. Perhaps most. It is a reaction. OK, point taken. I was that way myself.

Wired - In the context of the post to MS (which wasn't really clear, apparently) I am saying that men are wired in such a way that we can compartmentalize and control our emotions. They don't bleed over onto others. We can fight with the wife in the moring, and go to work and be friendly with the boss and not drag all that home stuff into the office.

WHEN WE WANT TO. For us, it is a choice. Actually, it is a choice for the gals too. But for men, it seems to be easier in this area.

A long time ago I have been down this road with another poster. But I will broach the subject again. All you men out there better listen. You are the heads of your household. That is right, just, and how it should be according to God. Just like anyone in authority, you are held to a higher standard than those you are in charge of.

If you are in charge of people at work, is it acceptable to throw a temper tantrum in front of them? NO, IT IS NOT. MOST men who are in charge control their tempers with their subordinates. When they don't, they get fired. I, myself, had a boss get fired for exactly that. He threw a temper tantrum in front of a bunch of us, a couple of people complained and he was GONE.

How do they do it? We are WIRED that way. Our emotions TEND to be easier to control. So why don't we control them at home? Simple. WE DON'T WANT TO. Our righteous indignation gets in the way and we blow our tops at our wives and kids. UNACCEPTABLE. I will be the first one to admit I have done it and it is UNACCEPTABLE. I am the spiritual head of my house and that means I am in charge. I have to SET the standard.

If you are a guy and you are reading this and thinking it doesn't make sense. If you are saying to yourself "I am VERY quick to anger," CHOOSE NOT TO BE. Try it. You will find I am right. That quick temper comes right from the enemy in an attempt to weaken the household that YOU ARE IN CHARGE OF. Why would you let him do that?

If the wife is flying off the handle at you, be

...quick to LISTEN slow to ANGER
...noble
...understanding

All the things I said above. That is what you are supposed to do when you are IN CHARGE. Deal with the situation and your subordinates before you take care of yourself. TRY IT. Your wife will wonder what happened to her husband and you will have great make-up sex.

You say you can't? I would say you won't.

NCWalker

NCWALKER:

GRRRRRR I hate it when you make such valid points..GO play chess...LOL


.................................................

I need some time to respond to your second and third post. I have to get my thoughts together and I do not want to cross the Red and Black....Being how we are wired...and all..

Fair enough.

A little heated debate sometimes helps you "trim the fat" from your own feelings.

And I do care and will pray for you and Cindy.

NCW

^ bump