Hi Michael. I agree, it's good to see you back for a little while anyway. I'm sorry to hear things are so rough for you right now. But great to hear the work's going well.

Just a few things -



Just confirming that I think that's probably why too. When those suspicions start to creep in, it gets very hard to fulfill that LB$. You start to w/draw & every little thing they do sometimes just irritates the he** out of you.



Are the kids in counseling? Can they go see the guidance counselor or someone that could possibly help them? Have you talked about it w/Cindy?



Do you ask her how she's feeling? Have you asked her what's on her mind when you see her distant? If you come at her w/that resentment, she might still be afraid to talk to you. Have you made it a safe environment for her still? The only reason I ask is b/c you have been saying how your resentment has built up & it might be showing in the way you speak to her. She's definitely going to take notice.

Just some thoughts. Still thinking about you even though we don't speak that often anymore.

Michael,

We haven't been in touch for quite a while, but I think of you often. I'm sorry it feels like things are going nowhere. I wish Cindy would post here. For someone on the outside, that effort from her seemed like a big deal.

I think a WS has to be sorry, and has to remain sorry.

Some people who need to make amends put in a little effort, then start looking for their reward right away. They say, I was the bad guy, but I paid some dues, and BS isn't perfect either, you know. Give me my "good guy" patch and let's just put this behind us.

See, they don't realize the journey to redemption is its own reward. I guess they just want a clean conscience and a spouse who never even thinks of the affair, and all they want to have to do to get it is say "sorry" and come home.

Well, sorry WS, but you're underestimating how much you've hurt your BS. It will take a lot more than that.

This sense of entitlement, the impatience, it's all part of the equation.

I'm sorry, WS, if this sounds like a harsh judgement. It's easy for me to say - I'm the BS. But I do think the traits that give someone the ability to cheat are often part of the same palette that makes it difficult for them to recover.

It's why I admire the WS here who held their marriages together more than anyone. They had the generosity and patience to help their BS through the anger and the unbelievable challenge of putting the affair in the past. For these people, it's almost as if the affair was a real aberration. For many WS, sadly, the affair is just normal behavior for them. For many of them, it was latent, just festering beneath the surface for many years. Rewards, rewards. They were always sniffing the air for their rewards.

I hope Cindy opens up to you again, Michael. But I think you're right to cut her loose if she lacks the will to recover. She will be diminished, and will have to just live that way. Why she would want to, I don't know. She has everything she needs to find happiness sitting in front of her nose, or resting behind her eyeballs.

GC

It's been an on again off again thing around the house lately. I know Cindy is sorry for what she did and has done but I don't see her doing anything to improve on us. All she does is go into her survival mode around the house just to be with the kids.

My bad day's get in the way most of the time and I can readily admit it. Cindy on the other hand goes into her speach of where she is sorry and that she wishes she couyld take it back and that all she does around her is never going to be enough, it's not that it's not enough it's just that when I have a bad day she takes it all back and goes on her trailer trash language pitch.

She never is going to understand the amount of damage she did to this marriage and when I try to explain it all she say's is, " I never wanted this marriage in the first place" She even told me one time she has a special song just for me..

3 day's grace : Everything I hate about you


and the om has a nice song


3 doors down: Here without you


This is my life and it's tiring. I wish I could just close my eye's for ten minutes and be happy with the kids again.

I told her she can leave anytime she wants and of course she tells me I will stop her like I have the last few times. But it really is one of those things that she eaither has to want or she has to move on and let me and the kids get on with our lives.

GC:

I agree with you 100%. Cindy has what it takes to save this marriage she just lacks the conviction to stand up and fighjt for it. She feels being sorry is enough.

I let my anger get in the way more then it should but I feel Cindy needs to listen to my words at heart and not just in essence.


GRRRRRRRRR

She talked about moving out and being on her own again today.

I'm tired of trying to keep her in the mode of saving the family. I need to just let her go if thats what she really wants to do.

Anyone? Help

Hi,

i read your post this morning (even though i am really kinda backing away from the boards!!!) and you have been on my mind. now with this additional request for help, i thought i really should post.


i'm not sure if you know much of my story. i have read about you and cindy on occasion, not sure if i have ever posted to either of you. i don't recall the exact specifics of your story, i.e. was it a confession or a discovery on your part, was it something that had occured long ago or more recent, was it ongoing after d-day. these details certainly matter, however, on some level, it all ends up to the bottomline of how well the couple ends up taking hands and working thru this together. (ok, i just read your signature, so i do see some of the specifics).

i absolutely loved coach's post to you from 3/21. You never really posted your thoughts on it. would you care to share about how that post made your feel??

i am a FWW, my H is trying, as you are, to heal. i think point number one is, i do know my husband is trying to heal, and i do believe you are too, why else would you be here, why else would you be struggling so hard. so lets just make it very clear, i do know you want to heal.

if i were talking to Cindy, i would be asking her if she believes you want to heal. And if she would like to post here and discuss some of this with me, i would be happy to do so. i would think that might be better on a seperate thread.

in this post, i am talking to you.

I do very much want to help my H and marriage heal. Do you believe Cindy wants you and the marriage to heal?? I'm not asking you if you think she is doing the right things, but do you believe she truely wants it.

if your answer is no, then i believe that perspective may hamper your ability to see her actions.


that is the core of my thought. are you seeing that because of a fear or belief that you have that she does not really want it?

it is much harder for me when i see my H's actions and i start to fear that he may not be able to heal. but worse is when i start to think that maybe he is not really wanting to do the hard work required for him to heal. but when that thought comes into my head i work hard on fighting it. me deciding if he wants something or not is a disrespectful judgement. when i ask him, he says yes. my job is to believe that and trust him. i think this is the core of the trust that coach was talking about.

the second point i want to make is are you helping Cindy show her love for you by giving her specific things that if she did, would be what you need. please don't think that she should be able to figure this out on her own. it is very hard to do. i try to ask my H what can i do. I cannot undo the past. what can i do now??? what is his main love language? what are his top needs?

He does not know. he tells me he does not know. i need to be more pro-active and in his face to figure it out. i cannot do that for him. that is part of his work. i think i am doing a fairly good job on day to day level. i have NO idea what i can do for him when he is having a bad day. and he tells me he has no idea either.

help her help you.

Hi Ms,

I really wish that I had some great advice for you. I want you to know, tho, that you have support here.

I can tell you that it may be fog. I really thought that Cindy was up for the recovery process, and it was what she wanted. I am trying to have empathy for her, I am sure this is not easy for her either.

Don't be rash, it may very well just be a "rough spot" for both of you.

May the force be with you, always.
jls

bump up

Update:

I will respond later today to everyone who has written in the last week or so.

Ok, As promised I am going to do my best to blurt out where I am and how I am feeling.

First of all, On most day's I feel great about me and cindy and where we are TODAY. But then most other days I feel like i'm going to be sick all over again. The kids are doing better and are hopefull that Cindy will not go back to being a ws. We are still struggling with the everyday things and I find myself throwing her A in her face most of the time, even though I know this is a huge LB I still do it.

When I try to talk to cindy about her A or just about the Om in general she gets very defensive and upset. Cindy is home alone from 9:00 am until almost Noon. Even with are youngest home with her durring the noon till 3:30 pm hour I still fear she may be tempted to sneak off and call the OM while our youngest is watching tv.

Cindy swears up and down that this A is over and that she has no intentions of hurting the marriage anymore then she already has.

Cindy is also on the fence most of the time on if she even wants to save the marriage or just except what she has done and move on.

Cindy has told me that the only reason she is here is because of the children, she also has told me in the past that she will never be in love with me.

She still takes off the wedding ring and throws it at me if were having a bad day.

I mention things to her that would make me feel like I matter to her and she comes back with " I never seem to be doing enough for you or it's never good enough "

I don't see how making me a cup of coffee is something to make me feel like #1 in her life again. She does not give me many hugs or kisses like she used to when we first started working on the marriage. I feel like were falling right back into those old habbits which may have lead to her A in the first place.

Cindy left her job two 6 weeks ago and has been home full time ever since.

I'm back to working full time and have been made an offer to be a Dm for this company in there Florida Market but Cindy is not to keen on an out of state move.

I feel OM is still to close for comfort and I worry she may not be strong enough to avoid calling him if she should have that notion.

She does not call me at work and seems annoyed if I call home to see how she is doing. I try to only call her maybe twice in any given day.

Please help me....

I feel like a very dark cloud of coldness is moving in on my soul these days.

i don't understand.

what kind of help are you looking for?

I need help understanding what I should do. At this point how do you open up to the thoughts of deleting the anger and the mistrust.

How do I go about trusting Cindy again?

How do I learn to not be so angry?

Grrrrr

Just ignore this post....

Mike,

I lost your phone numbers. Email them to me at rapandncw@nc.rr.com

NCW

Michael, from my understanding, the same thing happens all the time. You read NOT "Just Friends", you read it right there, plain as day, from the pen of a certified expert. And now you're experiencing it. The WS says, the A is over, now cut me some slack because you're not making me ga-ga for you. The BS says, can't can't can't, too hurt, too angry, can't get there fast enough.

You have to help each other, there's no other way. "I'm sorry" and "I'm here, aren't I?" don't cut it. You need to help her regain feelings that make her want to stay with you and her children. But she needs to help you forgive her and she needs to work to regain your trust.

Everybody has to become generous and patient. If they can't, then I don't know where you can go.

I think Cindy has some other problems too. The violent outbursts, the cursing and ring-throwing and all that, it's no good. She really ought to see somebody about it.

All the years while I was growing up, my mother regularly lost her temper and screamed and yelled, ranted and raved about her grievances. Sometimes it escalated into violence. Some kind of screaming fight happened almost every day. And my mother is an incredibly kind and generous person. Everybody who knows her is blown away by her. But she had medical issues that led to imbalances in her hormones, and it led to years and years of turmoil for my family. My family had problems, but some medical and psychological attention could have made things far less stormy under my roof.

GC

Michael,

do you pray?? when you feel anger coming on, could you step back and pray?

i have found that to be emensly helpful these days.

i wish we would pray together, my H is a very private person and would not be comfortable doing that.

i have not always been a steller believer/follower, i never really quite understood the whole personal relationship with God thing. I seem to be somewhat getting it now and it really has made a huge difference.

what do you think?

please understand, i really would love to help you somehow as maybe in doing so, i'll figure out how to help my husband. perhaps deep down Cindy is wanting the exact same thing i am wanting and just like my H may not see it in me, maybe you cannot see it in her.

The past week or so all she tells me is she hates me and that her leaving again will have nothing to do with OM. She told me in front of the kids that she never will love me and that she is nothing but a prisoner in this home.

We have are first MC today at 1:45 pm...

She is going in there to get the MC to help me understand her wanting to leave..but who knows..

Wish me luck.

Mike,

You need more than luck. You need to stop throwing her A in her face. No matter what she does, thinks, feels, or wants, YOU NEED TO STOP THAT BEHAVIOR RIGHT NOW. I cannot emphasize enough that this must happen if your marriage is to survive.

Cindy, has made a huge mess of things, BUT you are now making a big mess as well. You think you can control her with your outbursts, change her mind, make her feel bad, and then GAIN something from this. It won't happen, not now, not ever.

Step back and be a good father, a good husband, and a good person. Learn to do and be those things for yourself, for your children and it just might help your marriage.

You seem to operating on the misquided idea that she OWES you something. She doesn't. She can walk away, she can lie, she can hate you, she can love you. It is her choice, not her obligation. Marriage is about promising to actively LOVE one another, it is not about debts, or lists, or anything. She broke her promise to love and protect you. She made that choice, but she doesn't owe you anything.

What she owes herself is the best effort to save this family for if she doesn't make that effort she will regret it. However that is not your call. You owe yourself the same best effort and you are not making it. You know better.

Decisions will be made when they need to. Make yours KNOWING you did the best you could and that you have learned, grown, and matured as a result of all of this mess. The rest of your life and the happiness of your children actually depends on you learning this lesson. You gain NOTHING by throwing the A in her face. If you really cannot live with her, if you really don't feel there is a marriage to save, then divorce. It is legal, it is even bibilically legal, but don't keep berating her or throwing the A in her face. It is over. It is done. The scars are there. The pain is there...HEAL and then learn. After that make your decisions.

That is my advice to you. It may not save your marriage, but it will make your next marriage a heck of lot better than it would otherwise be. Plus your children are probably very very tired of hearing you argue with her, and throw the A into her face. You are harming them with your behavior. Tone it down and gain control of yourself. You cannot control your W.

I do hope you will think about what I said.

God Bless,

JL

Your Post hit home, Deeply......

Today at Mc he told me your exact words only with more feelings in it.

He made me lay on the floor and let all my feelings out and made me promise to stop fighting with Cindy and to be honest with her. I was also told that I need to stop being so angry.

By the end of the Session I had laid my soul out for all to see and walked away feeling much better.

Now for the worst of the news.

Me and Cindy are lsoing are home and because of this are looking into another home ( Rental ) this home is within my means and very beautiful...

You ask what the problem is:

it's like ten houses from where her OM works and less then 1 mile from where he lives.

what do I do....I have 30 days to find a new home. Buying is not an option since we are going bankrupt and losing this home.

My company wont pay relocation to florida if I want the DM position.

Cash on hand -- 0
paychecks bi weekly - $1,459.00

Cindy is not working right now.

were paycheck to paycheck at this point

Quarterly bonus +/- $100.00 / $4,100


The only home for Rent in are area is less then 10 houses from OM's work.

Rental property in a good area like West Irondquoite ( Suburb of Rochester ) is far and few between.

should I take this rental or keep looking?

bump

Keep looking dude.
New job if you have to.
STAY AWAY FROM OMslimeball.

IMHO living in fear and pain and wonder and near triggers is probably not anywhere near worth it.

Can family help temporarily?

I personally would fight tooth and nail to get my family as far away from there as possible.

Just my 2cents.

Just so ya know I am thinking about you and rooting for what is best for your family.