I went through a couple of false recoveries where they resorted to secret cell phones provided by the OW. He kept this hidden in his truck. Some times they get sneakier. Not that yours is doing this or that this is going to be another false recovery...but I agree with the others that the OWH has a right to know the reality of his marriage so he can have a choice. What he does is his own choice.

If the A is over your H should have no problem with her H knowing. Don't be complicit in this lie of omission. Do unto others... It is a flawed morality that is telling you to mind your own business.

Not telling OWH has more of a chance of hurting your recovery than helping it. If telling would cause the A to rekindle then you didn't have a true recovery. He should be willing to do anything to prove his fidelity and commitment to you and your marriage. He should understand and agree with the rule of radical honesty.

Has he read SAA or been pro-active in this recovery? I hope so...do not sell yourself short.
Sometimes 'love must be tough'.

<small>[ March 04, 2005, 09:38 AM: Message edited by: Trix ]</small>

nabohio,

My goodness there are so many reasons, & you've been given many of them.

OK, lets take the OWH and his rights out of the picture even. (I don't think they should be....but you seem to Not want to consider him....so for now we will).

Telling the OWH is good for your M and Your Situation. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> IMO it is.

For one, it gives YOU another set of eyes and ears to make sure this A NEVER does spring back again. (And if it "should"....then you have increased your odds of catching and stopping it much sooner than if you don't).

Another plus, if OWH see's something supsicious he tells you.
What a great asset that is, as well as piece of mind that it Brings. (That being, You don't have to worry and carry this Burden all alone).

Just having the "secret" out and known to all the invloved parties....goes a long way in destroying the "fantasy" and illusion of the A.
As others have said, A's and their appeal Grow in secrecy. Don't give it any further power by helping to keep the secret.

(Truly, Even only keeping the dirty secret between the 3 of you gives it some power and life). Take your oppurtunity to destroy the fantasy now.

Next, just having this OWH know makes it all the harder for there to even be a chance of any renewed contact. Because Once OWH knows, this OW is no longer Safe (as she now Brings "complications" to the A).

Yes, the OWH may have suspected something was wrong (but since he was being lied to (like you) , he had NO IDEA if it was "really" anything....Let alone with whom, where, how , ect...)

However, once he knows Who she was with, where they met, HOW they communicated....he will then be empowered to be able to monitor that it NEVER happens again (and if it does, that it ends quickly, and that his WW suffers some type of consequence for her continued actions).

Cause Most people don't stop doing something they find Pleasurable UNTIL they find it more painful to continue. That is the purpose of consequences.

Truly, you may even find out some additional information, that you never knew about.
Since you don't know "what" it is, you have No idea how it may help you. (I found out about an Other OW). Talk about a STD scare!

At the very least it can give you a gage to help determine "IF" your H is in fact being truthful and honest to you now.
How?
(By being able to determine How honest he's been about the facts of the A itself).
Sadly, if he's still lying to you about it.....it would be better to find out NOW?.... then find out later and waste all your time and energy in a False Recovery?

Lastly, if this OWH knows (For Sure) that this is really happening (his W & A's).....then like all of us here, he can begin to do something about Improving His Marriage......
This OW being Happy and content in her M is one of the best ways to make sure an A won't occur again (at least with this woman).

Truly, this would ensure that not only would his WW stay away from your man, but any future men as well.

Heck, you could even direct him to THIS website during your talk.
Your taking this chance here.....why not give him the same opportunity?

In addition, your H having a bit of embarrassment and learning some humility would go along way in having him think with the Head on his shoulders and not the one in his pants.

This is one of the consequences you shouldn't be Protecting him from.
In fact, your doing Both him and your M a disservice if you do.

Not saying take out a billboard.....just admitting the Truth, to the OTHER unsuspecting / injured party.
This would send a strong message to your H that you WILL expose him to ANY OWH he should ever get involved with in the future....(and also send the silent message that if necessary you WOULD expose him to Family, friends, coworkers, ect,....).

As of now he believes he can either get pity.... OR even threaten......and you'll follow his direction. He needs to realize that it may be HIS choice to have an A, but that once it is found out.....he looses that control he once had.

Also, just Putting a bit of fear (of ever meeting up with OWH) and a bit of shame (at having to potentially face and look into this OWH eyes).....will do much more to make him "Get It" and Not WANT to do this anymore, then all the hours of explaining to him why he shouldn't.
Because sadly, unless your H understands & "gets it"......no amount of snooping or policing will keep him faithful.

Unfortunately, If he wants to....He'll Find a Way.
Help him have a "light bulb moment" & realize he must stick to these boundaries.

To some other things you stated:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">From nabohio:
And, how do we really know the OP's spouse doesn't already know? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We don't.
But if they do and don't care (UNLIKELY), but even so....what does it cost you if he did Know and you tell him??
That's right....nothing. What a BS Does with the info. (once they know) is their choice to make. Just like you.

However, if he's like most of us.......in the end he'll be thankful at least SomeOne was willing to be honest enough to tell him the truth.

In either case, your responsibility it over and your conscience is clear.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">From nabohio:
I believe the OP's spouse knows, deep down, just like we all knew, and will face it when they are ready.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have to disagree.
In my case, I knew that something was wrong in our marriage, but after talking to her I had NO IDEA it was an A.
O course she lied & lead me to believe that it was mostly me, and as a result I was beating myself over things I didn't know about and had even less control over.
And she wouldn't let me Fix anything (as this would have made her have to face what she was doing, feel the guilt, and end the A). She didn't want this....and as a result, made me suffer and pay the cost....even though I was attempting to do the right thing.
Only once I did find out (almost 2 years LATER)....was I able to really "finally" address the TRUE issues in our M, and begin to make things better for the Both of us.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">From nabohio:
The OP's spouse can find evidence very easily, if they choose.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, not necessarily true.
My W's A took place 100% at work.
All the sex and most of the calls / contact happened there.
They got 8-10 hours a day together, so the need for any outside contact was minimal.
In addition, as he was her boss....any phone calls, emails, pages that were done.....were easily explained away as work related.
Since it took place at work, there were NO unexplained absences, NO motel/hotel rooms, no missed pay......nothing.
Heck, as they had privacy and security protecting them.....even a PI wouldn't have been able to catch them.

I wish AnyOne would have told me about my W's A.
Of course it would have hurt.......but in the end it hurt far More for it too go on for sooooo long without my knowledge.
Indeed, it would have been easier on Her as well, since she would have been far Less Wrapped up in it then she was.
Even, if I wouldn't have believed it.....you can bet that I WOULD have had my "radar" up and would have discovered Something on my own.

Unfortunately, even once I caught them...for months I made the mistake of (listening to my W and also bending to my own fears) and as a result, keeping this dirty secret between the 3 of us. I was wrong

Please consider Helping this man....and in doing so helping yourself.
[Hopefully these ramblings made some sense].
Wishing you success in your journey.

<small>[ March 04, 2005, 10:58 AM: Message edited by: top rope ]</small>

I am not trying to protect my husband or is OW, I just think that the OWH knows either on a consious or subconsious level. To answer the question whether or not I would want him to tell me, there was a point that my H could explain everything and I believed it because I wanted to! When I was ready, all I had to do is open my eyes because, as most do, they get sloppy. It didn't take much at all to find out.

So, the reasons I won't contact him are that it won't do me any good, could cause the OW to contact my H and cause a fiasco. I have to follow my gut on this. BTW, it is not my responsibility to tell the OWH, it is hers.

I am not trying to protect my husband or is OW, I just think that the OWH knows either on a consious or subconsious level. To answer the question whether or not I would want him to tell me, there was a point that my H could explain everything and I believed it because I wanted to! When I was ready, all I had to do is open my eyes because, as most do, they get sloppy. It didn't take much at all to find out.

So, the reasons I won't contact him are that it won't do me any good, could cause the OW to contact my H and cause a fiasco. I have to follow my gut on this. BTW, it is not my responsibility to tell the OWH, it is hers.

Nabohio,

I'm going to make this very simple for you..so that you can not evade the real issue..just accept or deny it.

It is not your job to decide what he does or does not know on a subconscious level.

It is not your job to decide that it is his own fault or choice that he doesn't know because he hasn't looked hard enough.

It is not your job to fix everything.

It is not your job to make his choices for him.

It IS absolutely your responsibility to give him information that you have and he does not that is very relevant to his LIFE and well being and future.

It is your job because you HAVE the information.

Looking for someone else to do the job instead is just evading the issue. Finger pointing and conflict avoidance.

Noodle

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by nabohio:
I am not trying to protect my husband or is OW, I just think that the OWH knows either on a consious or subconsious level.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Then he shouldn't be surprised when you tell him. Even if he feels something on a subconsious level, he needs to know the facts that you have.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, the reasons I won't contact him are that it won't do me any good, could cause the OW to contact my H and cause a fiasco. I have to follow my gut on this. BTW, it is not my responsibility to tell the OWH, it is hers. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, it is the "responsibility" of anyone who knows this man is being destroyed behind his back to tell him. And since you know, you have a moral imperative to warn him so he can protect himself from his W and your H. It is a cop out to expect the OW to bust herself, and even if she did, he would likely never get the complete truth.

And I would disagree emphatically that it won't you do any good to contact him. It WILL do you alot of good, and more importantly, it will do HIM alot of good.

<small>[ March 04, 2005, 11:39 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

Noodle, yes, I am the queen of avoidance, I realize that. I spoke to my IC this morning and explained this website and the discussion forum to her. I also explained about the advice to contact the OWH. She didn't really understand how this would help in my recovery. One of my other issues is that I always put myself last behind H, children, job, dogs, cats, you name it! So for me to even look at a situation and question how it will help me is new. I just wanted to explain that as it may appear that I am not a giving person and care about other people, I do. I am still confused about this, are there any specific expamples/stories of how it helped and how you the BS felt afterwards?

Nabohio,

A lot of what is going on in this recovery..is about you.

This though..this is not about you, not really. This is about doing what is right, and kind, and ethical.. because it is right, and kind and ethical..not because you are guaranteed a return.

Quite a few other posters have pointed out some potential benefits..I am not going to rehash them, or debate them.

I am going to tell you that isn't the point. By withholding this information..you are being selfish..you are saying..if it does not directly benefit me..then I'm not interested. That IS uncaring. This mans entire LIFE is a lie at this point..and he is hamstrung..and it is partially to do with YOUR husband. You know. You have the relevant information. It would require 5 minutes of your life or less to pass this along so that HE can choose the direction he wants to go.

You have no excuse for not disclosing this to him.

Noodle

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by nabohio:
[QB] I just wanted to explain that as it may appear that I am not a giving person and care about other people, I do. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I believe that you are a caring person, nabohio, and I have every confidence that you will warn this man despite your fears. You know that it is the right thing to do. However, your fear does not justify not telling him. He still has to know.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am still confused about this, are there any specific expamples/stories of how it helped and how you the BS felt afterwards? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are you confused? Or are you just scared?

P.S. I usually feel "confused" when I am trying to bullsh** myself about something.

Perhaps I missed it - what was the answer to the question about whether YOU would want to be told if the roles were reversed?

WAT

Top Rope, I am sorry that happened to you. My H and the OW worked 2gether in the same small office. He used to work for a large telecommunications co. in NJ. They consolidated their real estate and my H's group had to move to their headquarters. Due to multiple layoffs, there was plenty of space there, but they were private offices vs. cubes (my husband was not at a level to have an office). So, they put two to an office. This is when the A started. Even though they sat in the same office everyday, they were cell phone calls before and after work. They also ate lunch together as well.

"All the sex and most of the calls / contact happened there.
They got 8-10 hours a day together, so the need for any outside contact was minimal."

When they are obsessed w/each other, 8-10 hours apparently isn't enough. I wouldn't count on this was the only contact.
"In addition, as he was her boss....any phone calls, emails, pages that were done.....were easily explained away as work related." My H tried this, but I said that I had people reporting to me and I didn't generally call them on my way into the office, any conversations can almost always wait.

My H had been laid off from the co. on 07/03 and bought a business in OH with a loan from his 401-k, cash advances on our credit cards and drew down on our home equity line of credit. Right before he left in 09/03, is when I found out via e-mails, about the A. He continued his relationship with her via phone, e-mail and text messages even though he promised NC. So, I guess it became an EA at that point. Her story is that she still works for the tele co., lives with her husband's parents during the week in NJ and on the weekends travels to upstate NY to "visit" her daughters and husband. She is probably driving there now. She has done this for 3 1/2 years now. Maybe all of you are right as she not only deceived her husband, but took advantage of his family by living w/them. Here is a quote from one of her e-mails to my H; "you always put Nancy first, I always put you first. Remember when we were talking on the phone and Jxxx(OWH) was waiting downstairs at his parents house? I didn't rush the call, I made Jxxx wait, you wouldn't have done that it were Nancy".

Not much more than I can say...

worth a try, I don't think I would have believed it as I was in serious denial and avoidance. I suspected something at least 6 mo. before I found the evidence. Why I didn't face it, I don't know. I guess all the classic reasons, to acknowledge it made it more real, I typically avoid conflicts. So, in my case I think the best it would have done was made me more suspicious and get to the same place maybe a bit earlier, but I would have to find out on my own.

I didn't ask you if you would have believed it. I asked whether you would have liked to be told if someone had the knowledge to tell you. Would you have liked the opportunity to believe it or not? To make your own decisions and assessments?

Believing it is a different matter.

And I differ strongly with what your counselor advised you > this CAN assist your recovery by helping to prevent an affair with this particular OW from recurring, once it has stopped.

Please consider printing out these responses to you and show them to your counselor. We'd be interested in his/her reaction.

Now, exposure aside, what are YOU planning to do and what has your counselor advised you do about your husband's pattern of infidelity?

WAT

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by nabohio:
<strong> worth a try, I don't think I would have believed it as I was in serious denial and avoidance. I suspected something at least 6 mo. before I found the evidence. Why I didn't face it, I don't know. I guess all the classic reasons, to acknowledge it made it more real, I typically avoid conflicts. So, in my case I think the best it would have done was made me more suspicious and get to the same place maybe a bit earlier, but I would have to find out on my own. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Most BS' are very grateful when presented with evidence of the affair because they do suspect something, just as you did. And it doesn't matter if that evidence is discovered on their own or presented by a 3rd party because evidence is evidence. And sure, some BS' don't want to believe it, but most will be extremely grateful. If they don't want to believe it, that is their perogative, but that does not absolve you of your obligation to warn the man.

Either way, it is the decent, compassionate thing to warn someone when they are being destroyed behind their back. Like I said earlier, it is no different from embezzlement, and no decent person would refuse to warn an embezzlement victim with the excuse that it is "not my place to tell him." That would make no sense. And it makes no sense in the case of adultery. There just is no valid reason to not warn this man.

I am wondering about this too. My WS had Emotional Affair with a co-worker. They only met at work, never did they meet outside the office. After finding out I told OW if she ever contacted my H again I will tell her H everything. My H also told her NC.

Our recovery is going well NC for over 2 months, my H is remoreseful and is an open book and has promised me if she contacts he will not respond and let me know.


This may sound silly but I feel if I tell the OW's H, then he may divorce her and she will go to my H or I am ashamed to say I can live with this, that her H will harm her in someway.

Will be interesting to read what others have to say.

Posted originally on Recovery

<small>[ March 04, 2005, 03:42 PM: Message edited by: cafe17 ]</small>

Cafe:
My H had promised same and didn't follow through. You should not let this fear stop you from doing the right thing. If OW divorces that won't be the deciding factor in whether or not they rekindle the A and ride off into the sunset together. The A mainly thrived in secret. That is where much of the thrill seems to be.

On what terms do you want him to choose your marriage...by default? Give him and yourself a little credit.

Keep working on your marriage together.

cafe, there is a greater risk that the affair will resume than her H kicking her out. And you have only your H's word to rely upon.

I think its very sad that no one has warned her H. Now she is free to pursue your H or any other married man at work because there were no consequences for her affair. And you will be none the wiser unless your H chooses to tell you.

This is one of the reasons why affairs are so prevalent, because people like you help them hide their dirty little secrets.

Lets be clear here. I believe no one here exposed the A because they thought they were doing the so called "Right and Moral" thing. You all exposed the A because you wanted the A to end. Selfsih? Yes and so what? Don't justify your actions on some moral ground which most likely you don't have. There are millons of people dying of hunger in the world and WE don't do anything. So don't make a BS that doesn't expose the A responsible for something he/she is not. We don't know the OPS in general and we couldn't care less for their well being, we don't owe them anything. We care about our marriage and the effects of exposure on it is what we should be discussing.

notsosadman, I very much believe that an affair should be exposed on moral grounds. If we did NOTHING unless it personally benefitted us, then it would be a sad, sick world indeed. I couldn't morally sit by and do nothing while another human being was being destroyed. Compassion and human decency is what seperates us from the animals.