On another thread you wrote: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lets be clear here. I believe no one here exposed the A because they thought they were doing the so called "Right and Moral" thing. You all exposed the A because you wanted the A to end. Selfsih? Yes and so what? Don't justify your actions on some moral ground which most likely you don't have. There are millons of people dying of hunger in the world and WE don't do anything. So don't make a BS that doesn't expose the A responsible for something he/she is not. We don't know the OPS in general and we couldn't care less for their well being, we don't owe them anything. We care about our marriage and the effects of exposure on it is what we should be discussing.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, not, I'll see you and raise you all you want to debate this.

"Don't justify your actions on some moral ground which most likely you don't have."

A little testy, huh?

A pretty general conclusion, don't you think? Exactly what do you know about my morals?

I do agree that exposing an affair to help end it is selfish. Count me as being so selfish that I wanted to save my family AND provide an opportunity for the other family to be saved. This included four children. I am proud to say I was "selfish" to want to do that.

On informing an unsuspecting spouse that an affair is in progress is not selfish, and I think you agree, right? It is honorable in that the unsuspecting spouse has a right to know and a right to make their own decisions with all cards on the table. Honorable or moral or just doing the right and noble thing. Intuitively obvious.

World hunger? I guarantee you that if I thought I knew the cure and had the influence and power to implement it, I'd have done it a long time ago. So don't give me minor premise, major conclusion. Your logic is faulty.

A BS who doesn't expose an affair IS NOT responsible for the affair. But a BS who consciously chooses NOT to expose an affair is an accomplice in it. They ARE responsible for helping to keep a secret. Period.

"We don't know the OPS in general and we couldn't care less for their well being, we don't owe them anything."

Now THIS sounds selfish. I happen to care about others, not just myself. You're right, we don't owe them anything. We help them because we can and it is the right, just, moral thing to do. Where's your world hunger logic here?

Go ahead, make my day.

My point is that I read people here telling other people what to do and they give reasons like "It is the right thing to do based on moral judgments" and most likely when they choose to expose the A they were looking for their own good and not the OPS.

Ok sorry, I don't know anything about your morals and don't mean to offend.

I do agree that exposing an affair to help end it is selfish. Count me as being so selfish that I wanted to save my family AND provide an opportunity for the other family to be saved. This included four children. I am proud to say I was "selfish" to want to do that.

Yes it is selfish, you are looking after what you care. You do it because it is good for you and there is nothing wrong with that. That is what I'm trying to say.


World hunger? I guarantee you that if I thought I knew the cure and had the influence and power to implement it, I'd have done it a long time ago. So don't give me minor premise, major conclusion. Your logic is faulty.

No one knows the cure for world hunger but most of us could do a LOT with very little to help people who are starving to death. And we don't do it. And we are not bad people for not doing it. As I mentioned in another thread with what I spend on cigarrettes each day I could feed a family in Africa, and I bet we all spend money in luxuries that are really not needed to survive that could help a lot to other people. I don't want to get into religion so don't make me go there.

But a BS who consciously chooses NOT to expose an affair is an accomplice in it. They ARE responsible for helping to keep a secret.

I'm not responsible for anything, OM and FWW are, not me. I'm not an accomplice. What if I give you OMW contact info, would you tell her?

Now THIS sounds selfish. I happen to care about others, not just myself. You're right, we don't owe them anything. We help them because we can and it is the right, just, moral thing to do. Where's your world hunger logic here?

I do care about others, but not about everybody. I don't do nothing (compared to what I could do) to help people I don't know, does that make a bad person. No, I'm all right with being selfish and I'm ok with other people being selfish too.


Hope this can make your day (see, I'm not being selfish right now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

notosad,

(with appolgies to WAT)

In your w's case, there was a college professor involved. It is quite likely that he has victimized other female students in the same way as your wife. If the university knew about it, they might could take some actions to protect those other students.

Maybe it wouldn't help you now - but it may help some other girl who's in this jerk's class - or works for him as a TA or GA.

-AD

<small>[ March 04, 2005, 05:29 PM: Message edited by: AD ]</small>

AD,

I understand what you say but again I have my reasons not to expose the A, they are selfish and prevent me from doing something that could help other people. But me and my marriage come first. And if some day I expose the A it will be for the same selfish reasons, to help me and my marriage and not because I doing the "right" thing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by notsosadman28:
<strong> My point is that I read people here telling other people what to do and they give reasons like "It is the right thing to do based on moral judgments" and most likely when they choose to expose the A they were looking for their own good and not the OPS.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think that often it is done for both reasons; because it helps end the affair and because one has a moral imperative to warn a person when they are being destroyed behind their back. You may not choose to do that, but it is the right thing to do and many choose to do it.

Can I politely jump in here? This thread has pushed a few buttons for me.

Selfish: Definition:a blatant disregard for another's feelings;exclusive regard to one's own interest or happiness;concerned chiefly with only yourself,et al.

It is not selfish to want something as abhorrent and painful as Adultery to end and to implement ways to hasten it's end when you consider that when we do this by exposure it is to benefit not just opurselves but for our marriages,families and children.How can this act be seen as anything other than the "right" or "moral" thing to do? Is it right to ignore it and pretend it will just go away or resolve itself? If we all agree that adultery is wrong and painful then why is there the suggestion that exposure to end the A selfish? WE DO consider and care about how this effects more than JUST US.

How does one know who is and isn't moral? Do many people know that I give $ to over a dozen charities.That I an an RN that works in her community to help other's and takes care of a disabled woman on a ventilator? That I donate food and clothing to local homeless shelters and other people in need? That I spend a great deal of time HERE helping other's and welcoming them(like so many of us) when I could just do nothing?C'mon.WE is not everyone.
Just what does the issue of world hunger have in a place like this?

If you saw a woman being raped would you just stand by a watch or would you try to help? You can be an "accomplice" if you have information and choose not to do anything with it to the DETRIMENT of other's.Inaction has no place in my book.I will stand up for what's right and I will help those in need.I will not stand by the sidelines and enable or protect those who hurt other's.This most definitely includes an OP and the WS.

Ok,that's it. JMVHO. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

O

nososad,

I can understand your POV.

You think exposure would hurt your marriage and family. Weighing that against what possible good it might do for "other people" (possibly unknown) is perhaps too much to expect from anybody.

-AD

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by notsosadman28:
<strong>What if I give you OMW contact info, would you tell her?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If I had enough first hand knowledge I would! Why? Because I experienced the pain of betrayal and I don't want anybody else to be in the dark about it any longer than necessary. AND I would consider it my civic duty to potentially prevent some scumbag or slut from victimizing some body else's spouse. Just like donating blood to a faceless patient. Why? Because we like getting stuck with needles? We like getting juice and a muffin? NO! It's the RIGHT thing to do. It's the MORAL thing to do. It's the responsible thing to do.

YOUR problem is that you're trying to justify your own failure to notify the other BS by questioning others' motives. You are helping to keep her in the dark. You are an accomplice in the affair.

Shame.

WAT

OG,

Selfish: Definition:a blatant disregard for another's feelings;exclusive regard to one's own interest or happiness;concerned chiefly with only yourself,et al.

That's what I mean by selfish, but keep in mind that sometimes our own interest and happiness depends on the happiness of others, i.e. the people we love and care about. I don't use the word selfish to denote something bad as the first (blatant disregard for another's feelings).

If I saw a woman being raped then I would call the police, but if the raper puts a gun in my had then I will keep my mouth shut. In a sense I'm being selfish because I looking for my own interest and it is fine, me and my family come first. Same with exposing the A, I believe that it can hurt me more than it can do good (too me), maybe I'm wrong but that is my choice. I'm not a bad person, responsible or accomplice for the A, OM and FWW are, not me.

Arguing that I should do it for someone I don't know makes a very week point specially when my M is at risk. Same with other people in my situation, if you want us to do the "right thing" you will have more chances of succiding if you show how it can benefit US and not THEM.

I brought the issue of world hunger to show how something that we all agry is the right thing is not done simply because we really don't care about people we don't know. Again, think how much resources we spend on "stupid" things like cigarrettes, internet, cable, alcohol, eating in a restaurant while there is people out there who are dying. And to use your analogy about rape, we know that somewhere there is a woman being raped at this very moment, and what are we doing about? Nothing. Why? Because we don't care about them enough to compensate us for the cost of helping. But if it was our daughter that was being raped at this moment then we (or at least I) would be kicking doors open to see if she is there.


PS: WAT must be really comming strong on me because he is taking a long time to reply.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by worthatry:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by notsosadman28:
<strong>What if I give you OMW contact info, would you tell her?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If I had enough first hand knowledge I would! Why? Because I experienced the pain of betrayal and I don't want anybody else to be in the dark about it any longer than necessary. AND I would consider it my civic duty to potentially prevent some scumbag or slut from victimizing some body else's spouse. Just like donating blood to a faceless patient. Why? Because we like getting stuck with needles? We like getting juice and a muffin? NO! It's the RIGHT thing to do. It's the MORAL thing to do. It's the responsible thing to do.

YOUR problem is that you're trying to justify your own failure to notify the other BS by questioning others' motives. You are helping to keep her in the dark. You are an accomplice in the affair.

Shame.

WAT </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WAT,

According to you the right thing has to be done at all cost and that is not true. EDIT: Let me rephrase the last sentence, you didn't actually say it. Do you believe that the "Right and moral thing" has to be done at "all" cost? So if I say this: "You pay me 1,000,000 dollars I will give you the info" and you refuse to pay or spend every day of your life trying to raise the money to pay me does it mean you are also an accomplice?

Don't you dare call me a failure. I'm doing the best I can to save MY marriage because thats the right thing for me.


BTW: What are you doing about the children in Africa right now? Don't you think that their lives are more important than a stupid discussion with me? Maybe you could be working and using that money to help them out.

<small>[ March 04, 2005, 06:18 PM: Message edited by: notsosadman28 ]</small>

oh dear.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Hi again,

I don't agree that some,like me, don't care about other's SM.Even though I don't see exactly where my money goes and to whom,I gladly and willingly give it away because I know that it does help someone in some way,whether that be food for a family who otherwise wouldn't eat dinner for a night,clothes or coats to children who might otherwise not have these things.I donate money because to may help to erect a new Safe House for women or a shelter,etc.I do care SM,very much, what happens to people all over.I don't usually think locally,I think globally.I also agree that with all the money and power out there in this country,and other's,that we could do SO much more to help people.When I hear about another mutlimillion dollar stadium going up in a nearby state,I get MAD.What the he** do we need another one for? I could go on and on with that issue.

What about risking your marriage for the sake of another? Is your marriage really at risk by telling the OM's W? would your WW really D you if you told at this point?

We cannot police the whole world SM.I am not unrealistically talking about that.A woman gets raped every 2 minutes in this world and for sure,there are many other atrocities happening right now.We each have a role in life to help other's I think.We don't have to solve all worlds problems but a good start is right at home.

If our DD's were being raped,yes we would risk our lives for them but isn't adultery similar in that,there very wellbeing is at risk,their family,our marriage? On a legal level,rape doesn't equate with adultery but it sure is very important still.Which is where exposure,that has been proven to work in many cases,comes into play.We would not be suggesting it to newcomers if we weren't sure that we had information that proved it's usefulness.

Exposure for you now,if the A's are really over for your WW *might not be a time to be considered since that is a primary reason to expose.But,I have to go and finish reading the rest of your posts to more accurately address this.

O

edited for typos

<small>[ March 04, 2005, 06:29 PM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]</small>

notsosad, what do starving children in Africa have to with this discussion? I am not getting the connection.

NSSM, I do not always do the right thing. my belover SIL buys counterfeit DVDs at car boot sales fo her own use. Its illegal and gives scumbags like OM in my sitch a pocket money cottage industry.

But, amd I phoning the police ? No.

Why ? Well I guess I make a judgment as to the possible consequences of said 'crime' and rank my action acordingly.

Not at all scriptural and probably sloppy from me, but I could grass on virtually everybody I know for something. I drove faster that the speed limit for a while today. I didn't turn myself in.

But that doesn;t mean I don't largely know right from wrong.

If OMs GF had known about Squids and OMs affair and not told me I would have been VICIOUS.

As it is OM has thanked me for giving her the opportunity to work on their relationship in the light of truth.

Would I have told her if it had not been my W that was involved in the affair? Probably not.

I am a weak mortal in that I do not always do the 'right' thing, but the fact that exposing did me a great service in stopping and evil affair does not mean that the exposure was not 'right'IMO.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by notsosadman28:
<strong>So if I say this: "You pay me 1,000,000 dollars I will give you the info" and you refuse to pay or spend every day of your life trying to raise the money to pay me does it mean you are also an accomplice?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Discussion over for me. I obviously am not intelligent enough to grasp this logic.

WAT

ML,

I'm just taking WAT's arguments to extreme situations to show their weakness.

OG,

I want to make several points, first human beings feel very differently about things they see. If you lived in some really poor place, surrounded by missery then you would probably be giving more than what you are actually giving just because you would feel really bad about seeing the poor children's faces. I don't know OMW so her feelings are not that important to me. Another point related to the previous one is that there is a cost and a benefit from each action and we have to weight them before we make a decision. There is no such thing as doing the Right thing independently of the cost. Exposing an A has two major benefits: It helps an A end by many reasons which are not relevant now, and it is the "Right" thing to do. In my case I believe that NC is in place by both parties, so the first benefit does not apply here. (You might argue that the A is not over, that's fine). Now the second benefit is not that big either because I don't know that person. Now lets talk about the potential costs, I can expose the A and OM might contact FWW and also I know she still cares about him so me hurting him = me hurting her. How much weight should I put on those costs? Well I don't think that any one but me can decide that. At this point in my life these costs are greeter than the happiness of some woman I don't know, just as me drinking a beer which costs 75c is more important to me than giving that money to charity. It's selfish? Yes. Is it bad? I think not.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by notsosadman28:
<strong> ML,

I'm just taking WAT's arguments to extreme situations to show their weakness.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess I am just not seeing it. In fact, I thought WATs argument was pretty tightly reasoned. I am not catching the starving children in Africa connection, though.

Bob,

There are things that we can all agree that are right (or at least a vast majoirty) still sometimes those things are not worth doing, why because the benefit it is lower than the cost. Why are you going to report a DVD pirate? Like that is going to change the world? But the important thing is that you not doing the right thing doesn't make you a bad person or a failure like WAT seems to suggest. I don't expose the A because it can hurt ME. Just like he doesn't want to pay me to give him the contact info to expose the A himself. Paying hurts him (and if he could come up with the money then I can most likely think of something else that he wont be willing to do to get the info). What hurts me more about WAT's comments is that he is blamming me for something I had nothing to do about, he says that it is my responsability to expose the A, and not doing so is a failure. That guy has some serious issues of superiority.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by notsosadman28:
<strong> ML,

I'm just taking WAT's arguments to extreme situations to show their weakness.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess I am just not seeing it. In fact, I thought WATs argument was pretty tightly reasoned. I am not catching the starving children in Africa connection, though. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WAT argues that I have to expose the A because it is the right thing to do for someone else. I say that is not enough. Exposing the A involves some risks to me, putting in other words it is costly for me to expose the A. To make him see my point I bring up the starving children in Africa. We all agree that is the right thing to do, still we are not doing all we can to help them, and why is that because it is costly for us. We rather buy a new pair of shoes which we can most likely live with out, than giving that money to charity. Helping the kids from Africa is costly to us so we don't do it (or don't do it enough to do the right thing).

Round and round we go.

Ok.Just a few more comments.

1) Yes,it is emtirely up to the individual to make the decision to expose.You can do whatever you want,as does everyone,irregardless of our suggestions here.

2) I don't like your assumptions about me and the money I donate and this issue.You claim,IYO,that I would give more money if I too lived in squalor which doesn't make much sense since if I did live in a poor town/city,I would most likely not have that kind of money to donate.You do not know how much money I donate so don't prortend to know.Just becasue I am not staring into the eyes of a child of poverty doesn't make me any less caring about their wellbeing.You don't know me.

3) </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is no such thing as doing the right thing independently of the cost </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I disagree.It matters not what amount I give to charity but that I do it because I feel it's the right thing to do.I am less concerned with the amount I give than the usefulness of the money.

4) I am surprised that the OMW's feelings are not a concern of yours.Afterall,she WAS directly hurt by the actions of YOUR WW too.You may not know her personally but she is,nonetheless,closer to you than you might want to acknowledge.

5) </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...just as me drinking a beer that costs 75 cents is more important to me than giving that money to charity </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am sorry you feel that way.It says a lot about you.I too am done with this thread.

Adieu.

O