Frozen

I don't think it is stenght your missing. I'm willing to bet your just a loving person that wears your hear on your sleeve. That doesn't make you weak either. It makes you out to be a honest and caring person. Those people with the hard outer shell are the one's who don't step up to help others when they need it. I'm willing to bet that your soft outer shell is one of the things your H loves about you the most.

RHM

Froz

You said "Wow, you've experienced a lot of painful things in your life and you're still standing." That isn't something to be admired

Why is that not something to be admired ?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why is that not something to be admired ?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">They were not things that I did, they were simply things that happened TO me. The fact that I am standing is not something I accomplished. I haven't had a choice but to go on. Sure, suicide is an option, but the minute I became a mother that option ceased to exist.

Patriot has argued "You were a teenaged mother. That was adversity. You could have thrown your kids in a dumpster - it happens all the time. You chose not to" (or something along those lines).

I'm sorry but not having thrown my children in a dumpster doesn't seem like a huge accomplishment and something to be proud of. It is something to be expected. If the fact that I didn't throw my children in a dumpster is all I have to be proud of, I'm in pretty sad shape.

Frozen wrote:
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It's the element of truth that hurts me. I don't even know how to move past it. I examine it, alright, over and over and over...I'm not very adept at dealing with pain. I know others have called me strong before, and it makes me SO ANGRY when people say that. To me, what they are really saying is, "Wow, you've experienced a lot of painful things in your life and you're still standing." That isn't something to be admired! If I could choose differently, I would. I think that rather giving me strength, it has only made painful things harder to bear, actually weakening me. I have also noticed that I seem to be lacking this "hard outer shell" that a lot of people seem to possess. I think that this is due to my being so ruled by emotion. I think that it causes me to maybe feel things sharper than most. I think the only place I seem to have a hard shell is in my upper region - somewhere around my head.
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The reason people equate endurance of pain as strength is because it tends to build character in a person that survives it, intact.

Unfortunately, people sometimes misunderstand that character built by pain, often leaves a scar behind. That scar can be damn sensitive. Over time, the sensitivity does mostly go away.

We are all "ruled by emotion" to some degree. You have learned some basic coping skills. You will become more proficient with them as you use them. A hard shell is nothing more than a veneer. You don't have to act tough, or be tough. Simply continue to face life head on - just like you are doing, and the work that needs to get done in your head and heart, will take place. It will take time.

Quote:
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Are you proud of Patriot? Do you suppose he's getting "it" now? I am proud of him. He is a good source of strength for me, which I desperately seem to be lacking.
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I am proud of him. I do think that he is beginning to 'get it'. I also think that he is youthful, and still has a lot to learn.

Patriot is intelligent. I have seen a lot of people mistake intelligence for wisdom or truth. There is a difference. That difference is what causes you so much trouble in determining the truth with and from Patriot. I think that you two should discuss that issue at length. Figure out how you both can deal with it in order to be more comfortable with each other.

Frozen, I think that both of you are pretty incredible people. You both have a tremendous amount of potential.

All the best,
Gimble

Frozen, Its clear your mind is made up in your own case, so I will not comment.

Typically however, a persons resolve in adversity is the most admirable thing in a person IME. It takes grit to "take arms against a sea of troubles".

And many many people DO stow their kids in dumpsters, bale out of slightly difficult marriages and never win an argument in all their lives.

Its a pity you do not feel pride in your accomplishments. I am sure Patriot is proud of you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Frozen,


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> How are you further down the R road? Did you mean just with reference to time because your D-Day was earlier? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pretty much that is exactly what I mean. My H and I pretty much stumbled into following many of the MB recommendations mainly because they are simply common sense. Oh course the BS can not recover if WS maintains contact. In my case, there was already no physical contact by d-day.

However, my naïve H thought that OW could continue to work for him as a freelance writer. I cleared that FOG on d-day and told him that if he wanted to stay with me, NC meant NC. He called her (with me listening in on the other line) and told her that he would not be able provide her with further work. She very sadly asked him how she was going to feed her children. Too bad SHE didn’t think about the potential loss of income if their A ended prior to coaxing him into the A to begin with. The last thing she did in the conversation was pledge her undying love and devotion to him, which he rejected. She followed up within days with a letter to H boss claiming sexual harassment.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am hoping that you mean in terms of recovery because if you have information that has helped you, would you please share it with me? I am desperate to recover. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think the main thing that has helped me is overcoming the unrealistic expectation that I had until recently that I would ever be able to forget what happened. I had to accept that I won’t. I have also had to understand that my unwillingness to meet some EM’s that were very high on my H’s list was what led him to the point where he could justify his A to himself. My H made what turned out to be the biggest mistake of his life. I never had to tell him that, he found out on his own.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Right now my biggest obstacle seems to be that the pain is so great. I wonder if I will ever be able to get past it. It hurts so much that I wish I would die on a daily basis. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Been there too. On d-day plus 20 days I took over 50 extra strength Tylenol PM and ended up on the verge of death in ICU for 5 days. Believe me, I knew for sure when the doctor in ER told me that I had less that a 50/50 chance of being alive for more than 72 hours, I knew that despite the pain, I wanted to live. I don’t recommend that course of action for anyone, but my H had his first real glimpse of what life without me would be like. Funny that he never considered during his A that his actions might lead to the end of our M.

The A is like the death of your M as you knew it. Our MC told us that, and he was right. What we had, both the good and the not so good parts of our M, is gone forever. We both know that we can’t ever get back what we had, can’t go back and undo anything. Part of me will always mourn the innocence we lost. In the past, there will always be he and I and her. I am working hard to look to the future….just he and I.

All that my H is willing to do is be sensitive to my pain, my insecurities, and my numerous set-backs that are still brought on by numerous triggers. We have begun to read aloud SAA together. It has helped us tremendously to understand each other perspectives and to begin to rebuild. No, our future life together will never be the same as before the A. I am beginning to think that it will be better. I never doubted that my H loves me. It was he who doubted that I loved him. He now knows better, sees the pain caused by his actions. I am just now beginning to believe that he will never, could never, do this again. He believes and trusts that I will never again be indifferent to him, so I need to believe and trust in him again.

Bob,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Its clear your mind is made up in your own case, so I will not comment.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You must have taken heed to my warning that my only hard shell is in my upper region. That's kind of funny.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Its a pity you do not feel pride in your accomplishments.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do feel pride for my accomplishments. I just don't view some of the hardships of my life as accomplishments. I feel as though I had no choice in the matter.

<small>[ March 07, 2005, 12:07 PM: Message edited by: frozen1229 ]</small>

Gimble,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I also think that he is youthful, and still has a lot to learn.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Such as...(I'm sure he will be interested in knowing)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That difference is what causes you so much trouble in determining the truth with and from Patriot. I think that you two should discuss that issue at length. Figure out how you both can deal with it in order to be more comfortable with each other.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You lost me. I am eager for an 'assignment', so I just want to be crystal clear on this.

I am curious to know, if you don't mind, what you find incredible about Patriot, and what you see as potential.

Gotta love triggers huh? Not really. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I can GLADLY say that I haven't had a trigger in the LONGEST time....well over a year now.

I remember a time when the pain....anger and triggers never went away....they even followed me into dreamland.

I am going to agree with what bob said.....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have come to believe that triggers are an EXCUSE to feel bad, not a reminder to feel bad. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I couldn't go anywhere at all without something being a trigger.....even just being around my H was a HUGE one.

I'm not at exactly at what point I realized this but....in my own situation....I realized that the triggers were all about ME....not about my H and the OW. Sure....they were the ones that created the situations and planted the seeds.....but they didn't cause ME to keep being triggered by them. I did that on my own.

The pain and anger that I still felt was caused by my H and the OW.....but I soley was the one that was putting myself through it at a certain point.

It's almost like we are punishing ourselves.

IMHO....triggers are all in your head.

It's how you view certain things. Like say the apartment building that the OW moved into after she D'd her H to be with mine. The one that he spent every night at. Used to be a HUGE trigger for me because we pass it on a daily basis.

I thought about it one day while driving by it.
Do I really want to spend the rest of my life driving by this building and just thinking of it as where my and H and the OW lived?

NO!

So....when I would drive by I would look at it and noticed the bricks and the mortor and the windows....the shutters. It's just a building.

Today...it's just a building I drive by every day. The OW no longer lives there.....and I don't think of her anymore when I drive by it.

I see the OW...and her H very often. They are just people passing by. I notice them....but they don't mean anything to me.

It's my choice as to whether or not I'm going to let something bother me....or I'm just going to ignore it.

For me....if something triggered a memory of the OW or the A.....I simply said....OK....well....it has nothing to do with today......and I'm never going to be here today again.....so....I'm not going to waste my time with it. It was gone...and I go about my business.

I realized something a LONG time ago that had a very big impact on my thought process and my life overall.

I'm never going to be in this exact moment ever again. Oh....I might do something similar the next day or a week from now.......but I'll never get the last 5 minutes back to be able to change anything about what I might have thought....or what someone has done to me.

My H can't get rid of my pain and anger....he can helt the process....but he can't get rid of it for me. My H can't make me happy....again...he can help....but he can't MAKE me happy. I am the only one that can make me happy.

Life is what YOU make of it.....and YOU get out of it what YOU put into it.

Miss Priss,

Thank you for that. It was full of useful information. I'm going to read it several times so I can be sure it sinks in.

Thanks,

Frozen

Frozen:

You keep hanging in there too! Time will heal ALL wounds. I believe with all of my heart, that w/ or w/o our H's we WILL get pass this (Hopefully with them). If you get a chance, check out Joyce Meyer's website and look up the broadcast for today (it last for 1/2 hour - so it's not to long)
joyce meyer ministries Interview with John Maxwell Part I

It was about changing the way we think. It really help me today and I'm going to check it out again today and order Maxwell's book.

After my post telling you what worked for me as far as the "triggers" go....throwing out certain things...I wasn't sure if I should have said it...I didn't want to hurt Patriots feelings either...but I did want to share what worked for me. B/C Lord knows I'm trying to figure all of this out too! And I don't want to give bad advise to anyone.

<small>[ March 07, 2005, 12:58 PM: Message edited by: white_dove777 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by frozen1229:
<strong> Gimble,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I also think that he is youthful, and still has a lot to learn.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Such as...(I'm sure he will be interested in knowing)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That difference is what causes you so much trouble in determining the truth with and from Patriot. I think that you two should discuss that issue at length. Figure out how you both can deal with it in order to be more comfortable with each other.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You lost me. I am eager for an 'assignment', so I just want to be crystal clear on this.

I am curious to know, if you don't mind, what you find incredible about Patriot, and what you see as potential. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay, provided that you and Patriot are at a good place with each other, and ready to face a bit more pain, here is your assignment.

Talk to Patriot at length about the 'whys' of the affair. Find out exactly 'how' he lied. What was the methodology. No groveling from either of you, just fact finding. You need to understand how and why he lies, so that you have a better understanding of when he is being honest with you.

Patriot is already demonstrating his honesty to you. His actions imply a sincere effort, but you have said that he never manifested the classic signs of a wayward spouse. This means that you will have to adopt a slightly different methodology to determine truth from Patriot. That is why you will have to talk at length with him in order to gain an understanding of 'where his head was' during the affair.

What do I find incredible? Well, that is a mixed bag. He is intelligent. He did a good job at concealing an affair. He has some good talents. He has the ability to adapt quickly. He is basically a diamond in the rough. That is his potential - to be a real diamond at whatever he choses to do. That is quite a potential. The question is, of course, what will he do with the potential. I am hoping that he will continue to do the right thing with it.

Even considering all the pain, you two are making excellent progress. Neither of you may have had a great time this past weekend, but you made outstanding progress.

Gimble

Gimble,

Okay. This task shouldn't be too much more painful. We have already discussed the why's at great length. As far as how he lied, I don't know. I think he just opened his mouth and spoke. Who knows? We will sit down this evening and go over it all and give you a full report. Any other guidelines or specific questions you can offer would be helpful.

Thanks,
Froz

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by frozen1229:
<strong> Any other guidelines or specific questions you can offer would be helpful.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My only guideline would be complete honesty with each other.

One of the hardest things to tell another individual is the way you formulate a lie - how and why. You may really have to think about the process.

One of the goals of the discussion would be to figure out why the truth is actually easier than a lie. The answer is not intuitive. Everyone says that the truth is better - why?

Have a good evening.
Gimble

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">One of the goals of the discussion would be to figure out why the truth is actually easier than a lie. The answer is not intuitive. Everyone says that the truth is better - why?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not intuitive? I disagree. It is rather plain to see, actually.

If you tell the truth, then the truth is all you have to deal with. If you lie, then you have the truth to deal with, and the lie. And the fact that you lied to someone is damaging in and of itself, regardless of whatever the truth is.