Finallylearning - listen I am the BS and I will tell you that my WH does not talk about the A. He lied to me for 2+yrs. and I found out when it was ending anyway. He says they were just friends. I am trying so hard to get over this and I think I am doing good. No LB here anymore. But plenty of misunderstandings - because he does not talk just says soemthing short. I do love him and treat him very well. He is spoiled in mnay ways. We are learning how to talk again -just about the daily things in our lives. I told him just yesterday it made me happy that he was talking about his job again with me. He had shut down completely for so long I did not know anything about what he was doing daily. Now we are talking and having a few good laughs. I guess this will take some more time to heal. I am the type who wants to just go over everything all at once -spell things out and get over them. Fix what I can and learn from experience. He on the other hand just wants to forget about it. I have told him that will not work for me. Has your H read any of the books here - such as surviving an affair. One thing I have learned here is we all have different ways of getting over and past things in our lives.
We are all different. Now one question I feel I should ask you - do you feel his withholding sex - do you feel he is using this as punishment for you? Think about this. and let us know.

thanks rose, yours seems to be the best advice but it is so hard!! i am happy with my kids, we do have lots of fun together, i lost some that for a while because i was too busy having a double life. i am glad it is back full force. i have no complaints about that. work is stressful but i am doing well. i'ld still rather be a teacher but i am at peace with staying here in order to provide for my family, we get to keep the vacation house which we all dearly love, college is just around the corner and my H has a better chance of starting a furniture business like he would like to do. i enjoy the tutoring i do very much. instead of teaching a class full 5 days a week, i teach one child for one hour 3 days a week. i have many blessings in my life.

but i will never stop wanting a close relationship with my H. i'm just not wired that way.

orchid, i think you are right. i don't think he thinks i am stepping up to the plate. and i must admit that hurts me because i feel like i have done a lot of hard work to deal with my demons and to change some fundemental negative things in me. but i cannot make him think those things are significant or worthwhile to him.

Julie, thank you for your kind words. situation is still like before, does not enjoy kissing, only really wants oral sex and although that is only one way, he does try to satisfy me too and he is usually successful. but i still long for real sex and i long to be kissed.

am i just being the type of person that cannot be happy with what she does have? or am i just having a bad couple of days?

i agree, i should feel good about the U-turn i have made. and i do, until i'm around H then all i feel like is a failure.

the bottomline is he is not ready to forgive me and he is not ready to state he is back in this marriage. we are together because we have children together. and with that being his current state of mind, i must then choose and i choose to stay married. i am typing all this because i have to remind myself, i am choosing this. i am choosing this because i do love him and i do want to share my life with him. i have a hard time sometimes holding onto the hope that we will recover.

of course it does not help to have him say directly, we may never be close again, this may very well be as good as it gets. these are his exact words today on the phone.

do i think he is punishing me? i admit it feels like punishment, but i dont think he is doing it to punish me. i think it is more comfortable for him and i think he does not have any motivation to have it be any other way than how it is right now. he knows it is hard on me but he feels he has the right to have it be the way he needs it to be.

regarding books or C, he is not interested in either. nor is he interested in MB.

Hey FL,

(((((FL))))))

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> why am i so unforgivable? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just wanted to add as a footnote to what I said before about my sitch, my H hasn't forgiven me yet either. He also hasn't said ILY since dday. Its not unusual for a FBS to take a very long time to come to terms with their drastic new picture of the M. I think thats why the 2 years time line is always cited around here.

I think I was making a lot of progress by myself, in forgiving and understanding myself, before my H decided to join me in recovery by coming to MC. Rose has some good ideas about looking after yourself. I do think, by what you write, that you are making that progress. I know it gets frustrating to continually hear "patience!".... but sometimes it is necessary.

Hope today is a better day for you.

obviously i was in great need to hear the message of patience. thanks for checking in with me again smur. i think i have suffienctly tired myself out for the day. bye for now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FinallyLearning-T2M:
does this mean you all agree my actions are unforgivable? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Personally, I did not want to involve myself in this thread because I think this question is manipulative.

To me, you are asking a message board for validation of your personal worth.... which is, as you know, an inside job.

I refuse to play.

Pep

FL, I am about you annoy you , my GOOD friend, just like you and others who care have annoyed me.

Patience.

Patience. Time.

Time , love and tenderness.

Even in my own 'microwave' recovery I can feel our new R yawning lazily into life with all the alacrity of THIS Dad on a winter sunday morning . Eight months past a relatively straightforward D-day we are relating much better, teh whol e'practical' strand of rcovery is going well.

Squids and my own personal healing is not going nearly so fast. We have wounds to dress and mutuallyheal,but our recovery has set it sown agenda : we evidently needed to have a good practical recovery to help us practice at being man and Wife again before we trek into the realms of dealing with real hurt.

But all that in no way means our recovery is not progressing. Not that Squid is unforgiveble, or that I had no part to play in our previously dull M.

Your H has a lot of sh*t to shovel, F2 and he doesn;t have an template or a toolkit.

So far in your recovery he loves you and wants you.

My studies here have shown that a FBS withthose two attributes and a FWS who is working hard on recover too pretty much only need time, and patience to make even more progress.

Let your H know you're here for the long run. That you want him.

I predict that he will unlock himself as you prove your resilient love to him.

Don't panic, dear FL. Its not been long for both of you. Time, love and patience.

It took a long tme for your M to break, it will take some to fix too.


{{{FL}}}

FL's post: "Julie, thank you for your kind words. situation is still like before, does not enjoy kissing, only really wants oral sex and although that is only one way, he does try to satisfy me too and he is usually successful. but i still long for real sex and i long to be kissed.

i agree, i should feel good about the U-turn i have made. and i do, until i'm around H then all i feel like is a failure.

the bottomline is he is not ready to forgive me
do i think he is punishing me? i admit it feels like punishment, but i dont think he is doing it to punish me."


Occassional BJ's (esp. MUTUAL oral sex <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> )are good for marriages (if both enjoy doing it) but all the time, EVERY time, he wants you to give him oral sex, is just not right, especially since you have made it clear that you want REAL lovemaking and passionate kisses.

FL, I feel like you are being ABUSED by your H. IMO, this is not right. He is treating you in a humiliating and disrespectful way.

Bob, meremortal, Just Learning and other men(or women) what do you think? Do you think he is treating FL in a respectful way?
And if not, what can she do to change things?
Your opinions are valued by FL AND me.

Sincerely, Julie <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ March 15, 2005, 07:11 PM: Message edited by: Blessed TIME ]</small>

'Just Learning', would you mind taking the time to comment on the above post.
I know you have followed FL and her H's story for a long long time.
I am wondering what your wisdomy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> thoughts are on this.

Thanks, Julie <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

BT,

Sure I will take a crack at it. First, FL you are NOT UNFORGIVABLE. But, I think it will take awhile for your H to become comfortable with the idea that you are his, truely his. I know you feel that you are. I know you KNOW you are committed to this marriage, but I don't know how he could know it yet.

Truely, I think this will take time and patience on your part. I also think you enjoying your children, your job, the lake house, etc will continue to put deposits into his bank. I really do.

Given what I said in the first paragraph, the oral sex 'only' approach makes sense, right. Not sense in that it is right, that is not what I mean, but if he is really uncertain, he is trying to maintain his distance and yet he needs to feel sexually connected as well. So from his perspective it works and IF you are satisfied with it right now then fine. Oral sex is fun, and good both giving and receiving. However, somehow it does not emotionally connect with you,is that what you are saying. You need more connection and that is very reasonable. I think he fears this connection more than anything. So this is NOT a case of forgiveness although he has withheld that as well. I think it is his fear that prevents the forgiveness, NOT you.

I suspect that eventually you will have to decide what YOU really need from him and express it to him. You are part of the family and his spouse so you do have the right and obligation to speak up about these things. I understand your reluctance to do so right now, but the time must come.

I also think there is a bit of "testing" going on here. He is testing you to see if you are committed. He won't make your life miserable, but he is not giving you what a good marriage needs, intimacy. This is about him, alot more than it is about you. That is my opinion.

FL, you need to take that concept and truely grasp it. It is about him. He has been hurt badly. He has been pretty immature himself. He has hurt you as well. But in the final analysis, he is making the decisions because of what drives him right now, not based on what you are doing right now.

Does this make sense? I hope so.

Hang in there girl, it often takes a year or more to get through some of this and his last d-day was in the fall. I would set some dates for evaluation of progress if I were you. Say in a month or so, middle of summer, fall, etc. Just decide to live your life with joy and grace and evaluate periodically.

Those are my thoughts.

God Bless,

JL

i wanted to acknowledge that i have read the latest responses and i wanted to thank you each for posting.

i need to let it all sink in now before responding any further. it is not that anything said here was recieved negatively, not at all. i'm just feeling quiet and pensive this morning (i'm not sure if pensive is the right word, it's actually between pensive and wanting to isolate/hide out/feel safe).

but as we all know, old habits must die.

question: what am i not doing that i could be doing to help myself...

answers:

pray more often, i.e. focus more often/consistently on my blessings, on God's love and on how to be a loving person.

journal and journal everyday - i don't even have a current journal at all. one of my thoughts is that 95% of the time i am happy and i am making my happiness and self worth dependent on myself and not others, however, i really don't have any data to back up that thought and more importantly i am not giving myself a resourse to look back at for days that i am struggling.

EXERCISE!! i have gotten my eating under control again but i have not gotten back to the gym.

FL, I know this sounds glib, but take to from me - your H is messed up now.

Reality has skewed for him. If hes like me he's ITCHING to trust you and love you agin, but cannoy let himself commit like before so he won't get heurt that badly again.

in Squids case she told me " I'll never hurt you agan" but that right after she said " I never intended to hurt you - it just happened".

Which do I believe ?

Only time and consistent trustworthiness from you can make your Hs HEART start to rely on youe motives once again.

I am still learning how to have a functional relationship wth squid, and I guess your H is teh same regarding you.

Dont beat yourself up. Be consistent and patient though you are screaming inside.

You have the rest of your lives remember, another coupla months in patient rebuilding won;t kill you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

you're doing great, just remember to keep your arms inside the car at all times on this rollercoaster <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />


{{{{{fl}}}}

Finally,

How are you today?

This marriage stuff is pretty hard, especially when you are the one that erred. I'm not surprised that there is a lack of connection between you and your husband. You didn't just have one affair, you had many. I think that your husband is trying to understand exactly what his wife is and how she could have done these things for so long. He also probably feels like the worlds biggest sucker, I’m sure he wonders how he could have been so blind.

I think consistency and patience are the key to recovery. The words that you say don't mean a lot right now. Your behavior is what matters. I would stop trying to fix things. You really can't. Your husband will either come to grips with what has happened and move on with you or he may decide that too much damage has been done, and he will end it. I would keep busy, try to be reasonably happy, and not push the relationship talk. I don’t know why your husband only wants OS from you. He could be trying to maintain an emotional detachment or he could be reliving what you gave these internet men. Ask him why. Sex is emotional, at least to me it is. When I feel distant from my wife, when I am upset with her, I don’t want sex. Now a BJ, well that is a different kettle of fish.

My wife and I initially stayed married because of the kids. I think that that is a splendid reason to avoid divorce. Somehow, along the way, we fond that we actually still want to be together because we liked it that way. That took time. My DD was in 2002. My marriage is different than it used to be. I think it is better. I wouldn’t still be married if things went back to the way they were pre-affair. We both learned a lot about ourselves. I think that my wife has forgiven me for the affair, she surely hasn’t forgotten and still brings it up from time to time, generally when she is mad. She will never trust me to the same extent as before, but that is just one of the outcomes of having an affair.

You are not unforgivable. I just don’t know if your affairs will be forgiven by your husband. I’m sure your God has already forgiven you.

FL,

Perhaps this will be of use to you.

When I think of an affair, I see three main platforms..all affected, all intertwined..yet independent at the same time. You as an individual, your H as an individual, and the marriage as an entity.

Weird I know. Bear with me.

Your H and his reticence to have sex with you. Understandable. Probably not even a bad idea. You know what you have done, you surely understand the distrust in that area.

There was a period of time that I myself considered allowing H to orally satisfy me, I discarded it as settling, and also as setting up an unhealthy paradigm of disrespect and gratification..didn't want to get tangled up in that loop on top of everything else.

Which may be an element and may not in his case.

So this issue..is a sign that your H is in turmoil still, and that the marriage is unrecovered.

Do you notice what I didn't mention?

You, your forgivability, or your personal recovery.

This behavior affects you..so surely you must act..but it isn't about you, nor does it reflect on you.

It is about him, and probably about some dysfunction in the marriage that in all likelyhood existed prior to your As.

So..all things considered... If it were me..I probably would opt to not participate in the OS even though it probably WILL allow greater detachment.

As crazy as that sounds..there will come a time when H will have to decide whether he is on board or not. If he is waffling..truly leaning towards wanting to leave the M..but still too attached..then detachment might still be the best option. You don't want any marriage that you had to break fingers to maintain..right? It's too degrading.

I would probably disallow any behavior that was not going to be acceptable in the recovered marriage..to occur now. No point setting up bad habbits that will later need to be broken.

If he isn't ready for the intimacy, then he isn't ready. Using you as a masturbatory device in the meantime though is not helping to achieve intimacy..and in fact may hinder as a lot of the drive for intimacy is being ..shall we say..released.

Noodle