Hi, Forged.

Quote:
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I am confused why she chooses not to answer the question, when she knows it could eliminate my desire to save M.
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Probably because your plan A, even with her limited exposure, is having an effect. If she tells you the truth now with your line drawn, then it is really over, and she doesn't really want it over. Additionally, she fears what you will do with the information in your fault state when you divorce her. She also feels very guilty about what she has done.

Are you positive that you want to draw this line? I have to tell you, the great majority of wayward spouses don't use protection of any kind.

God bless,
Gimble

I am looking for help with an NC letter. I would appreciate copies of NC letters if possible, to use in the construction of my own. Thanks.

A no contact letter should say - I love my spouse and desire to work on the marriage. Please do not contact me for any reason, and I won't contact you. The End.

I like it, short and to the point.

So what's going on, Forged? Haven't seen a post from you in a long time.

I have been steadily shining my light to guide W home. I think it is working. I will post more soon.

I think we are on the verge of something good. After much stress and depression, I started to move on and rebuild my life. I took off my ring, just like W did. She promptly noticed, and questioned me. I let her know I was moving on, since she made it clear she was done with me.

Last week, our 10th anniversary passed. I was away at a music festival, working for friends. W & I always went to the fest. She surprised me by saying that she offered to drive to the fest with friend and her 2 week old baby. I found a ticket and asked her to stay. She had to go back and work on Fri, our anniversary. She called me that day, and asked if I was going to call her. I told her I needed to see her stepping toward me, and that I was glad to hear from her. She said that she was going to come back with friend late that night. She got there at 6 am. We spent more time together there than we had in months. It was good to get reaquainted. We ML for the first (and second and third) time in 7 months. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

When we got back, I asked if she had talked to OM. She said he called her. I let her know that I was not okay with her talking to him, and that while he was in the picture, there was no possibility to work on M. She said she realized that.

She moved back into our bedroom. We are taking things one day at a time. I have outlined the necessary steps that I need in order to rebuild my trust. She has made it clear that she wants me to trust her again.

She has expressed remorse for all of the pain she has caused me, and for the hurtful things she has said. She still exhibits a good deal of entitlement. She sees herself as equally wronged by this whole ordeal.

Where do we go from here? NC, SH, and then???

IMHO, U stay put. You know where you belong. The WS has moved herself out of your home and M. U R home. Home is wher e the heart is.

Call Jennifer @ MB, do some phone counseling and get with a plan. A for now and plan B for later. You still might need it even with some positive steps from the WS. Why? Because WS' know how to give out positive signals and tickle the BS' ears. U don't want to fall for those words. U need to see long lasting actions.

IMHO, I think that is still a ways off. Even if she is crying and begging to return to your heart.

L.

Hi, Orchid and Forged.

Forged, Orchid is right, you stay where you are.

Orchid, Forged's wife has an extraordinary sense of entitlement, topped only by her propensity toward conflict avoidance. What has transpired, even if it is a false recovery, is remarkable.

The real feat of intrepidity will be dealing with her conflict avoidance. I believe that Forged has just about beat his conflict avoidance to death :-)

Please continue to post to Forged. He needs your input and support.

God bless,
Gimble

IMHO, all the more reason for him to stay put. These confident WS' are the hardest to handle. They think they know it all. Reverse babble works well on them but it takes a well planned effort. That is why I recommended he get someone like Jennifer on his side helping him to create a plan.

Forged is in a uphill battle but he doesn't have t/d all the fighting. If planned correctly, he will have to do less and get more in return. The BS mentality is to beat ourselves to a pulp trying everything we can think of (except to relax) to 'fix the M'. Right now he can't fix the M. The Ws has to shed her WS skin before he can even think of having the M repaired. When he does most of the work s/b on the Xws not the BS.

My advice: Pray for a clear mind, calm heart, don't be afraid to execute plan B even when it looks like recovery c/b over the horizon, secure your finances, get with a good MC and get a plan, vent here as needed, do you reading, relax and breathe.

JMHO,
L.

I am definitely staying put, and will be steadfast in my treament of W. I made my request for NC as clear as possible. If no NC, no chance to work on M. I have spoken with SH twice. His plans helped me to focus on the most important steps to bust the A. I know the A isn't busted until after withdrawal, but I know that it has taken a hit, at the very least.

I told W that I cannot and will not attempt to work on the M until after she gives me something upon which to rebuild my trust. She has not commited to NC, but I think she is close. She has shown me her cell phone upon request, despite the fact that his calls were still in the log. She said she doesn't know how I will trust her, because she can't trust herself. I told her that she needs to take definite steps to allow trust to return.

I woudn't be here without much valuable help. I won't get far from here without a good deal more help. I pray everyday for a clear mind and a strong heart. Plan B with no kids is risky, but I am not afraid. I took steps away from W when she made it clear she wanted D. Bigger steps will be necessary if she refuses to NC.

I still love her with all of my heart, and am relatively sure I have the ability to forgive her if she lets me. My big question is: Can she forgive herself enough to attempt recovery?

BoB should get a kick out of this: I had posted a Joe Strummer song, "NitComb" a while back. I never played it for W, and in fact purchased the CD during the A, so she never saw me play it. I came home recently to find her listening to that very song, my anthem during the A. She was teary eyed and remorseful.

I know it is risky to try to trust too soon, and I am trying very hard to keep my wits about me. I never aticipated that things would turn around like they have. I am eternally grateful to those who have helped me get to this point.

Hi Forged

I've been praying for you.

I know it is risky to try to trust too soon

What do you mean by TRUST, forged ?

I have had to learn a new definition of trust.

For example. Squid went out nightclubbing on friday night. It was her best friend's birthday.

She got home a 4am.

We POJAed her outing, but I agreed in a moment.

Did I trust her? No.

Its a realisation that if Squid wants another affair, or to resume the same one she will.

The only mortal thing keeping Squid in our marriage is her love for me and her desire to remain married to me. Short of chaining her to our front door, theres nothing I could do to stop her having an affair.

So I do not TRUST her not to have an affair, she just knows that it is a boundary of mine that she should not.

Now i have come to trust Squids word once more, now that she has been transparent in action for many months. She is no longer uncomfortable with sharing details of phone calls, whereabouts etc with me. We do so with each other as a matter of rote when we plan activities.

But I did not trust her to do anything for many months. I loived as though I could rely on her for nothing until she proved herself gradually to be worthy once more of my trust in some stuff.

Forged, IME you will set yourself up for pain if you raiseyour expectations of the woman who hurt you so desperately, knowingly and persistently so recently.

Not as a PUNISHMENT to her but to protect yourself fom impacts that may cause you to waver in your captaincy of your marriage and its recovery.

People will tell you on here 'trust but verify'.

I will tell you 'verify, then trust eventually'.

Your W has a whole lot of trustworthiness to gain IMO.

Huge progress in your M however. HUGE. Well done !

Regarding entitlement, well...I hope you don;t think this sounds lame but...leave it to God.

Squid had a carbon steel streak of selfishness and entitelement in her for years. i could do nothing to bend it. I just avoided conflict because conflict never even dented it.

Over the last year God ATOMISED that sucker ! Squid is learning to negotiate, consider others and VALUE others no weven at times when it is not convenient to her personal desires.

God broke her down, and is building her up.

Continue in your loving, leading manner and I pray God will do the same with C for you.

All blessings

I will continue to pray.

The trust that I refer to is perhaps that naive blind trust that one feels the very first time love creeps into the picture. I know, I know, it is a myth, and something that is perhaps unhealthy to a marriage.

BoB, something you just posted made very clear (no pun) how I should approach the trust issue with W. You said "transparent in action for many months" I am trying without bullying to clarify to W my boundries. I am trying to show her that the chance of me trusting her is very real, if we take the proper steps to rebuild that trust. I know I can never trust her the way I did, but I trusted her blindly. I look forward to the opportunity to rebuild trust to a level where I don't need to wonder if she is seeing him. I have tried to tell her that in order to get to that point, she needs to share her whereabuts with me, constantly. Again, "transparent in action for many months" I like the phrase, and I intend to use it (provided you don't have copyright issues)

I asked her to change her cell #, but she refused. I asked her t send the NC letter, and she is about to do so. It seems like she wants it to be her idea. I will back off a bit, and will let it be her idea. I told her it wasn't my idea, but was something I read in SAA. She said, "maybe I should read it" I whole-heartedly agreed.

I believe it is time for us to seek help. I will propose a session with SH, and see how the idea floats in her stream. If it sinks like a rock, I will sit tight for a little while. I have been relatively patient thus far, so a little more patience will do no harm. At least I am building my balance in her bank again, something I had little opportunity to do for the last six months. She may be toe-dipping, cake eating, or whatever you want to call it. I can't blame her for testing the waters before she jumps back in.

I told her this morning that the purpose of my requests is to clarify my boundries with her, so she can clearly understand what is acceptable, and what is not.

I will pursue the notion of transparent living, and will not try to rush things now that I have seen some positive change.

FORGED

For this to work BTW I had to become transparent too. I had a lot more to hide than I was expecting when I became 'transparent'.

But as with so much in marriage the H must set the example.

Squid still has the same cell number. 'cept its now converted to 'online statements'.

I run a casual glance over it when it arrives now but I don't pore over it any more.

BoB, We had online statements, but W was the main account holder, and put password protection on it when the A was in full gear.

She jsut called, and I talked to her about "transparent living" She said "Why, who do you talk to that you shouldn't? Did you find another woman?" Her reaction meant only one thing to me, so I asked, "DId you talk to him today?" She hesitated, and said she did. She said that she answered one of his calls after he left a bunch of messages. I got angry, and she said, "I shouldn't have told you, now you are mad at me" I said, "W, the absolute worst thing you could do right now would be to lie to me again. This is your chance, the chance, to make things right again. Don't blow it, don't throw it away" She said she wanted to be trustworty, but she didn't know how. The trouble is, unless she changes her number and sends the NC letter, the beast will hound her until she is in his claws again.

The thing I have hidden from W that will be revealed when we commit to transparent living is the fact that I sought help here and on another site. She may be miffed that I published our probs for all to see, but as far as I am concerned, it was a good thing. She would have been history long ago if I hadn't found this place.

You did VERY well young jedi. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Squid hated me using MB too back in the day. She tells me NOW its because she thought everyone on here would think she was a silly slut.

She still won;t read what i wrote yet but she's happy for me to discuss post send mails to and from folks on here.

POJA will help restore trust too when the fog on her planet drops to breathable levels.

BTW this:

She said she wanted to be trustworty, but she didn't know how.

Is factual IME.

Squid lied for so long so instinctively its taken her a year to start telling the truth now, and she STILL forgets sometimes. It embarasses her.

I think W has a hard time being honest with herself right now. Another song she listened to on the same day as Nitcomb was a song by Ani DiFranco "As-Is" .

"...cuz you lie
in my face of all places
but I got no
problem with that really
what bugs me
is that you believe what you're saying
what bothers me
is that you don't know how you feel
what scares me
is that while you're telling me stories
you actually
believe that they are real."

Those lines hit home. She listened on a day she was sorting through her old photos. Since she is a trained photog, there are tons to go through. Shortly thereafter, she broke down and moved into our room again.

I know it is early to trust. The steps we must take are clear, but she must choose to take them. I am doing my best to help her realize it is the right choice <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

BoB said "She is no longer uncomfortable with sharing details of phone calls, whereabouts etc with me. We do so with each other as a matter of rote when we plan activities."

How did you intitially get her to agree to sharing those details with you? W showed me her phone once, even though it had a recent call to OM on it. She won't give up her phone, and won't change her number. OM leaves many messages on her voicemail every day, bordering on harrassment. I am very tempted to smash the phone with a bfh. I suppose that would be an LB.....

"Squid do you want me to trust you?"
yes
" have you behaved trustworthily towards me and others lately ?"
no but..thats all ove rnow
" How many times have you told me theres nothing going on recently? "
That was different I...
"if it was ME would you trust me without verification?"
maybe, I...
" if you have nothing to hide, why would you not want to show me how trustworthy you are?"
treating me like a kid etc etc

" you do not think texts from OM are a serious issue affecting our recovery i KNOW that they are, and for you to receive and reply to them is deliberately disrespectful to me and detrimental to recovery. THIS is why you need a new number and to prove to me how trustworthy you have become. Let ME be the judge of what is hurtful to me, not you".

"If we are to recover we need to have trust. The best way I know of for us to trsut each other is to be transparent. if you don't want to prove your trsutwortiness to me , then I will not force you. just know that I see no recovery for us without trust".

I won't lie they were HORRIBLE discussions, lots of LBs from Squid and none from me. Squid bought a seceret phone to call OM with, but I discovered it BUT DID NOT DESTROY IT. I wanted Squid to give it up voluntarily.

She did after four months of NC.

You have to keep using logic on her

" if you have nothing to hide why are you so upset that I see who you call and stuff? Wouldn't you be PROUD to show me how trustworthy you are becoming once more ?".

type stuff.

My hopes are being dashed again. W claims she told OM not to call her, but she did so while answering one of his many calls.

Her words and actions still don't match. She says she loves me and wants back into our marraiage, but she hasn't agreed to send an NC letter. She said she is thinking about staying at her parents for a few weeks to "sort out her head"

I have been able to fulfill her need for SF lately, but I am not sure it is a good idea to continue to do so. It seems like she is getting her "fix" and running. I want her 100% or not at all. Am I crazy to ask her to move back to the spare room and not meet her SF needs until she is ready to truly work on the M?

I have shown her nothing but kindness and understanding throughout the A and its aftermath. I have stood with my arms wide open for so long, the effort is beginning to wear me down. W's indecision may cost her the opportunity to re-enter our M. I want her more than I ever have before, but I need to know that she wants me. I am not prepared to watch her waffle back and forth forever. I need to be on the path to my goal of love and happiness. Anything less that 100% isn't sufficient.

I see a Plan B on the horizon. Perhaps her stay at ILs will be the impetus for my plan B. If she choses to move out, she is taking a huge step away from our M, even if she claims that she will only be gone for a week or two. In the past, she claimed to be staying at SILS and ILs, but was actually at OMs.

I am not ready to give up, but I think a different approach may be necessary.