Well if must be nice for your H to know that as long as he has very good justification for cheating on you you are o-k with that. WOW that's a pretty good get out of jail free card he is holding. I mean you couldn't be mad at him for cheating on you, after all not all A's are bad. Right? Isn't that what you said?

And all A's aren't immoral? I'm not really familiar with the bible. Can you point me to that particular passage so I can educate myself?

Everyone:

I'm keeping posting here today to a minimum because I'm filling in for an absent boss.

To the poster who asked about Judas:

1. I am not Christian
2. This is one of the things about Christianity I have never understood
3. This episode was used by Christians to slaughter Jews (my people), so I don't warm up to it
4. As far as I can understand it, having Jesus die was part of G-d's plan. So, how can an action that is part of that plan be immoral?

2Long:

I know it hits close to home <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I am not necessarily saying you should compare this situation to yours. I don't know yours very well. However, I do think that BSs, in general, are not held responsible enough for their actions in the MB system.

I've said it many times before and this will hopefully be the last. His ex-wife he was asked repeatedly over many years to go into counseling with him or to just talk to him about the problems. Her reply was always, "I don't want to talk about it." If she was ignorant of the problems, then she was willfully ignorant. And maybe other BSs are equally willfully ignorant.

Also, I have never said his affair right. I said it wasn't the optimal situation. I also do not believe he was morally wrong. I just don't, and really, none of you will convince me otherwise.

Why was my affair wrong? Yes. It hurt people.

Do I accept all the blame for it? When my husband told me to go find someone (echoing his ex-wife words), he became partially culpable. What you say and do has consequences; it is true of the WS as well as the BS.

I won't take 100 percent of the blame (or 50, if you include the other man.) This is where I differ from MB and most of you, it seems.

So, disagree if you want. It's your right to. I really need to take care of business here today, so if I don't reply for a while, that's why.

A faithful marriage is not a "box" it is a covenant--you make vows that you are obliged to keep, not until it hurts, until it is not convenient, until your spouse does something(s) you find unacceptable. There is NO right to an A, a little or otherwise. People get hurt, badly.

Did your and your H's A breathe life into your H? Maybe, but that is one of the least healthiest of ways to tackle problems in your life--find somebody else to fix them for you or give you the illusion that you have fixed them.

So now you had an A on your H and that is justified because he told you to find someome else? So any words spoken in anger can be used as an excuse and an ability to blame someone else?

Oh, btw, his XW wasn't hurt by your A and she deserved it because she was as emotionally unhealthy as your H, right? So in your world, unless your spouse is perfect consistently, you have a right to cheat? Thing is, it doesn't solve anything--you are still you and when you cheat there are problems within you. They don't get solved.

Hello all - First, I want to thank Wiegee for engaging in what is clearly a very difficult and confrontational subject. She has done so showing great respect for those of us who disagree with her position. I continue to carry a broken heart from the destruction of my marriage which, by all accounts (including my H's), was the joy of his life until the OW came along. He will be marrying her in May (somewhere immediately after my D is final <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> Anyway, affairs cause pain. My H and the OW swore that because they didn't have sex before they broke up our respective families (she was married with 3 kids), that they had taken the high road. In fact, it was the lowest road they could have embarked on. Their time was spent admiring each other for their strength in holding off in sleeping together which, of course, just heightened the intensity of their passion. The I love you's and talking about how their spouses didn't meet all their needs kept the fire fanned until they moved in together less than two months after d day (with her 3 kids the day her husband moved out). I guess what I'm getting at is that even if affair partners don't intend or want to hurt people - they do. They break promises to their partners, their families, and themselves by seeking a different solution to a problem that only they can fix within themselves. So, instead of anger - I look at these things with great sadness. In the end, the betrayed spouses have an opportunity to grow and flourish while the A partners remain stuck having always to defend their actions and, in the rare cases where it is real (like Wiegee's perhaps), their love. Be kind to everyone - we all have our burdens to bear. GS

So any words spoken in anger can be used as an excuse and an ability to blame someone else?

The words weren't spoken in anger.

Oh, btw, his XW wasn't hurt by your A and she deserved it because she was as emotionally unhealthy as your H, right?

Putting words in my mouth. Didn't say she wasn't hurt. Her pride was hurt, at least. But for crying out loud, she admits she wanted him gone, too.

Didn't say she deserved it. Said she helped bring it about.

So in your world, unless your spouse is perfect consistently, you have a right to cheat?


And once again, putting words in my mouth. I never said anything about being perfect. I said something about not even trying.

Thing is, it doesn't solve anything--you are still you and when you cheat there are problems within you. They don't get solved.

Hm. The affair itself didn't solve anything. But it gave him the "oompf" he needed get his life moving.

wiegee:

"To the poster who asked about Judas:"

I think that was K.

"1. I am not Christian"

Neither am I, but I used 2 be.

"2. This is one of the things about Christianity I have never understood
3. This episode was used by Christians to slaughter Jews (my people), so I don't warm up to it"

Jesus was Jewish. Hitler was insane, and so his actions, and those of his cronies, can't be blamed on Christians.

"4. As far as I can understand it, having Jesus die was part of G-d's plan. So, how can an action that is part of that plan be immoral?"

This opens up a whole 'nother can of worms, about right and wrong, religious or areligious morality... ...I prefer 2 quote something I heard many years ago, but can't remember the source. It went something like: "anything is permissible, but not everything is expedient" - referring 2 statements like Shakespeare's "There is neither right or wrong, but thinking makes it so."

But we live "relative" lives, and it's 2 easy for people 2 justify "bad" behavior by quoting things like the above.

"2Long:

I know it hits close to home I am not necessarily saying you should compare this situation to yours. I don't know yours very well. However, I do think that BSs, in general, are not held responsible enough for their actions in the MB system."

I think they're held very much accountable. The problem is that many people don't see the clear-cut distinction between problems in the M that are the responsibility of the Ss, versus choices made by one spouse 2 go outside the M. How can the BS be held accountable for something that they're not even aware is going on in their WS' mind? If they ARE aware, then that gets in2 the realm of "open marriages" or some such. But such an arrangement would REQUIRE radical honesty 2 work, and so we don't hear them discussed her all that often - because the ac2al choice made is 2 go underground an have an A, not be honest.

"I've said it many times before and this will hopefully be the last. His ex-wife he was asked repeatedly over many years to go into counseling with him or to just talk to him about the problems. Her reply was always, "I don't want to talk about it." If she was ignorant of the problems, then she was willfully ignorant. And maybe other BSs are equally willfully ignorant."

This may have been the case, indeed. The solution for her (at the time) H? DV. Clean slate. Clear conscience.

Incidentally, my W still says "I don't want 2 talk." I can quit (may have 2), but at this time I don't feel like I've quite done all I can, and my conscience wouldn't be clear.

"Also, I have never said his affair right. I said it wasn't the optimal situation. I also do not believe he was morally wrong. I just don't, and really, none of you will convince me otherwise."

Then that's the case.

"Why was my affair wrong? Yes. It hurt people."

And you don't think his hurt people? At the time, I mean. I understand that you all may get along now.

"Do I accept all the blame for it? When my husband told me to go find someone (echoing his ex-wife words), he became partially culpable. What you say and do has consequences; it is true of the WS as well as the BS."

This paragraph is very telling. First, it tells me that his xW's words had an influence on his thinking that goes a lot deeper than "go find someone else". He needed 2 learn something about what that meant and why she really said it, and he didn't in all this time because he parroted her. Lesson not learned.

Second, why is he culpable by giving you "permission" 2 go find someone. You still had a choice, not him. He didn't MAKE you find someone, did he? When my W said "go find someone else" (several times before and after d-day), I didn't because I didn't want someone else. I ac2ally thought it was a pretty s2pid thing for her 2 suggest, and I don't think she's s2pid.

"I won't take 100 percent of the blame (or 50, if you include the other man.) This is where I differ from MB and most of you, it seems."

Again, condition of the M, on the one hand, and choice 2 cheat on the other. All of us are 50% responsible for the condition of our M (100% divided by 2 spouses = 50%). All of "us" are 100% responsible for our choices (100% divided by 1 individual = 100%). Basic stuff.

"So, disagree if you want. It's your right to. I really need to take care of business here today, so if I don't reply for a while, that's why."

Okay, I disagree... ...100% <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-ol' 2long

I see where you are coming from here weigee.

So, of course the Judeo/Christian code of ethics is meaningless to you.

The marriage was dysfunctional. Gotcha.

Even XW admits this. Still with you.

My question is this. How does the admittedly bad situation translate into less than 100% responsibility for our own choices and our own decisions? For him or for you?

Now absolutely his wife has to take 100% responsibility for what she says/does as well..but the two do not connect in any way.

When it became public knowledge that my H had an A..there were several people who told me what I ought to do is go have one myself. I have never been so offended. I think my reply was something to the tune of "Do I look like a whore to you ?"

Hs bad choices and betrayal in no way justifies my own.

In fact, every failure was his fault [100%] for doing and my fault [100%] for allowing. This is how weakness and dysfunction feeds itself..making you only weaker and more dysfunctional.

So, by the time you injected yourself into the equation..I can really sympathize with how chaotic and withdrawn and damaged the marriage must surely have been...but the first step is as important as the last..no one had reached the point of starvation and frenzy..he could have chosen to act with dignity and integrity.

He did not and neither did you. 100%

Ditto your own affair. You bone someone because he told you too? Is he your H or your pimp?

How about telling him instead that you will not be talked to that way, neither will you be dismissed.

Not an option? Sure it was. it was your choice, no one made it for you, no one shares culpability. You can always choose to walk away with your virtue intact. The choice not to resides with the only person who had the authority to make it..and only with them.

Affairs are not medicinal. Not theraputic.

They are a cheap illusion of escape from real problems. Nothing more.

Noodle

Wiegee-

I fail to understand the purpose of your post. You freely admit that you know that you'll never convince the people here of your view of things. You also freely admit that you'll never agree with the viewpoint of the people here.

What did you hope to gain with this post?

From my viewpoint-

Your current husband chose to have an affair. That really is the end of the discussion. He began a relationship with you while he was still legally, morally, and even to a lesser degree emotionally attached to someone else. He broke all three of those (real or implied) relationships/agreements by having his affair with you. There is no other way to look at it. He broke his promise. Regardless of how he felt about his marriage, regardless of how difficult that marraige was, he did NOT take the appopriate action to end that agreement/relationship before moving on to you.

You DO have a role to play in ending that relationship as well. Because from the moment you became part of the picture, he began to finalize his emotional withdrawl from his wife. He quit trying. He stopped communicating. Don't EVER think that this did not play a factor, there is no way that it could NOT have. Even if things seemed impossible at the time, there is no avoiding the fact that your relationship with him was the "death blow" to his marriage, regardless of how sick that marriage may have seemed to him or you, or anyone else for that matter.

So again, what was the real purpose behind your post here? I'm curious why you started this thread now.

noodle:

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

My question is this. How does the admittedly bad situation translate into less than 100% responsibility for our own choices and our own decisions? For him or for you?

Or for her.

She made the choice not to care, not to seek help, not to listen to him when he said it was too much. She must be held accountable for those choices, too. And choices do have consequences.

When you treat someone like crap, the consequence might be that they have an affair. You beat up an animal often enough, it bites back.

no one had reached the point of starvation and frenzy

Uh... wrong. Waking up each morning wondering, "How am I going to kill myself," that's starvation of a kind. And that's where he was at.

he could have chosen to act with dignity and integrity.

Wouldda shouldda. And she could have decided to act with compassion at some point during their 11-year marriage. Had she, it never would have come to that.

Ditto your own affair. You bone someone because he told you too? Is he your H or your pimp?

Thanks for being so crude. Nice touch.

You know what, it hurt me deeply when he said that. It hurt *him* deeply when she said it. Nothing like being told go bother somebody else when you come in need to the one person who supposedly loves you above all else.

When a "future" wayward spouse comes to their spouse in deep need like that only to be rebuffed time after time, well guess what. You're screaming to them, "I DON'T CARE." Message received, loud and clear.

So, really, how can y'all be so shocked when the WS finally does stray in that case? What a high horse to ride upon.

How about telling him instead that you will not be talked to that way, neither will you be dismissed.

Oh god, you don't know how often I went around that mulberry bush. Nothing got through.

it was your choice, no one made it for you

OK

no one shares culpability.

Wrong. We just disagree there.

Affairs are not medicinal. Not theraputic.

It might feel nice to say so, but I have serious doubts about what that is always the case.

What did you hope to gain with this post?

Short answer, nothing.

If you go back to the first thread, I spoke up after someone said that marriages born of affairs are forever adulterous and should never be recognized by god, the government, my momma or your dog. So, I spoke up.

From my viewpoint-

There is no other way to look at it. He broke his promise.

Gotcha. And she broke her promises, too. Made him feel unloved, unwanted and uncapable. Put him in an emotional desert for 11 years.

Did he want to have an affair? NO. What he wanted, and asked for repeatedly, was to work on the marriage. She never would.

You may detest the notion of it, but he thought that if he could just find the affection he so desperately needed somewhere, then he could hold it together at home with his wife long enough for the kids to grow up. But he couldn't go on as he had been.


Regardless of how he felt about his marriage, regardless of how difficult that marraige was, he did NOT take the appopriate action to end that agreement/relationship before moving on to you.

Say, that hindsight is pretty awesome, eh?

I guess you'd be lucky if you never looked back and said, "There was a better way to handle that."

Yeah, it would have been better. But he was so down he thought he couldn't make it on his own. So sue him.


You DO have a role to play in ending that relationship as well. Because from the moment you became part of the picture, he began to finalize his emotional withdrawl from his wife. He quit trying.

The greater irony here is that if she had *ever* tried, it never would have come to an affair. But she didn't. And yet he is all to blame. Ok...

there is no avoiding the fact that your relationship with him was the "death blow" to his marriage, regardless of how sick that marriage may have seemed to him or you, or anyone else for that matter.

I'll accept that it was a catalyst for it happening when it did, OK. But not a cause.

So again, what was the real purpose behind your post here? I'm curious why you started this thread now.

As stated above, to counter the notion that my marriage is illegitimate. And to address a real wrong I find with the MB program.

wiegee - it appears a fundamental disagreement between you and everybody else here is that we believe people are 100% responsible for their choices. Period. This includes a choice to conduct an affair. It matters not that they found reasons or excuses or rationales for their choices in others' actions or inactions. The choice to act or not to act is 100% the responsibility of the one person making the choice - whether it's an affair or what clothes you wear tomorrow.

It can be no other way.

Otherwise, I can choose for you to change your mind or you can blame me for what you chose to eat for dinner tonight.

If you honesty believe that others are responsible for your choices, you have issues far deeper than we can address here.

No sane person will buy into your "devil made me do it" rationale.

Please seek help in sorting this out, for your own good.

WAT

wiegee - it appears a fundamental disagreement between you and everybody else here is that we believe people are 100% responsible for their choices. Period.

As far as I can see, in this place, that sort of thinking applies to the WS and the WS only. I see a lot of WS doing real soul-searching. Precious little from the BS.

If the BS neglects their partner, refuses to talk to them when they say there's a problem and throws up walls... guess what? They are responsible, too.

Decisions have consequences. Treating your spouse like dirt has consequences. Where's the responsibility-taking there?

The choice to act or not to act is 100% the responsibility of the one person making the choice

Yes. And that the marriage deteriorated to the point that a spouse would even consider it is sometimes the responsibility of the BS. In that case, the BS has actively laid the groundwork. They share the blame.

Please seek help in sorting this out, for your own good.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

The stance that you can treat someone poorly and then wash your hands of the result of that is more neurotic, IMO.

weigee,

I posted to you on Ogirl's thread but now I realize that this is where I should have asked my question.

If she wanted him to have SF elsewhere, then why not just call it an open marriage? Why call it an affair? Was there secrecy? If there was then that would cancel out the "go find SF with someone else" aspect of it wouldn't it?

Now with that said, you have been married to this guy for 10 years, what is the point of bringing all this up now? What difference could it possibly make NOW?

Is this just for the sake of debate because you don't agree with the members here that affair marriages are not worthy or sacred or whatever?

You cannot change the core beliefs of an entire site dedicated to the preservation of marriage. You cannot change the minds of people (and for good reason) who believe that affairs are evil. Which they are. Why are you trying? Are you just trying to stir up trouble and rub salt in the wounds of the wounded?

What possible difference would it make to you at this point? I mean 10 years married, why even bring up how it started?

I wish you well in your marriage and do believe that you are worthy of a lifelong, happy union. Hell, 10 years you are already a third or forth there. But I don't understand what you are trying to accomplish here.

I just don't get it.

I posted to you on Ogirl's thread but now I realize that this is where I should have asked my question.

I saw that post first and replied there.

Yes, I read it.

Thank you.

wiegee:

What weaver said.


"Precious little from the BS.

If the BS neglects their partner, refuses to talk to them when they say there's a problem and throws up walls... guess what? They are responsible, too."

For the state of their marriage at that moment. 50%. NOT for the A. AND YES, I AM YELLING. AT THE TOP OF MY LUNGS!

Like another MBer has said many times, "This is not rocket surgery!" It IS very simple. It IS cut and dry.

YOU EACH are responsible, 50%, for the condition of the marriage at any given moment. But the WS is 100% responsible for making the selfish, self-indulgent CHOICE, without the BS' knowledge or consent, to HAVE AN AFFAIR.

LISTEN!

End of discussion. Don't make this difficult. It isn't.

-ol' 2long

"YES I AM YELLING AT THE TOP OF MY LUNGS!!"

Ouch. Heard you all the way over here <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

AND YES, I AM YELLING. AT THE TOP OF MY LUNGS!

I stop.

I see that people are getting hurt, and that was not my intention.

You believe what you will. I'll believe what I will. Neither of us will change the other's mind.

End of discussion.

Wish granted.

Just going to reply to a couple of things.

I'm talking about personal responsibility here.

That's about it.

Not climbing on my pedestal to pontificate that I am incapable of having an A because I am morally superior and all lesser mortals should bow before me [and take notes].

When I said no one had reached the point of starvation, I was refering to the *first* time that an expressed problem/need/whathaveyou is dismissed. Not the 300 millionth. By then, I agree that conditions are murky in the room upstairs for anyone..essentially they have been living in an abusive situation.

There are several scenarios that could result in me having an affair..I can think of quite a few right off the top of my head. Whose responsibility though, is it to remain apart from those situations..either by removal or avoidance? I say it is mine. I say that if I am being treated badly, it is *my* responsiblity to protect myself..heart/mind/soul..and leave the situation. If I choose not to do that, I take responsibility for the affect that choice has on me.

Do you see what I am saying?

Your Hs XBS may have been nothing short of a screeching harpy..nothing she can ever do though will have the power to compel him to have an A against his will. He is responsible for his own choices.

Ditto you.

You say that you have fought for this marriage, but it looks like the issues of personal autonomy and choice..and therefore culpability are not things you have either quite faced. It feels nice to spread the blame around doesn't it?

I see much rationalization, justification for one persons actions being layed at the feet of another, and denial.

Would your Hs XBS be justified in treating her H so badly because he was such a sniveling weakling that she couldn't respect him? Or should she have treated him with care and respect simply because he is another person..a person she has vowed to bind herself with.

These boundaries are very slippery Weigee..and they seem only to apply to you and your H..if I spin them around and allow that logic to apply to all..you don't like it.

Using one persons behavior to justify another persons behavior..makes it both logical and apparently acceptable [though not optimal <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ] for XBS to put a bullet in both of your heads..cause your asked for it..you layed the tracks..your behavior contributed to the mental anguish that led her to make such a choice.

Care to volunteer?

Noodle