If you don't mind, I need a few questions answered. I won't thrown any LB's your way, and I would appreciate if others do NOT say any unkind words either.

I truly appreciate having WS's here. It helps me comprehend what the hell happened and how I can make our marriage right.

Most likely you had an Affair because you lost RESPECT for your BS (me) or you were NOT having your EN's met, in most cases.

Did you Honestly "Fall in Love" with your BS again?

How long did it take?

Why did you come back to BS?

Is your BS really your 1st choice?

Did you Honestly mean the words you said to BS during the S0-called FOG?

If you didn't really mean these words, then why were they in your thoughts and why did you say them? I know all the reasons the so-called experts say, rewritng history, feelings of Guilt so they throw it back to BS, etc... (this is NOT what I want to hear) I want the TRUTH.

If your spouse does not visit this site then "PLEASE" tell the TRUTH. Very Important to me.

For the Women in this group, what was the REAL reason you betrayed your husband?

Thanks in advance

Andrew

Andrew, your pain is so obvious, I'm sorry. ((((ANDREW))))

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Most likely you had an Affair because you lost RESPECT for your BS (me) or you were NOT having your EN's met, in most cases.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your helping the WS justify here. I had an A because I was not equipped with adult ways to handle, anger, pain, confrontation. I was lost in my lack of self worth. I allowed this OM to fill me, when all I had to do was ask my H, and teach him how I needed to be fulfilled. I chose my A because I had character flaws.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Did you Honestly "Fall in Love" with your BS again?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think this is all a personal view on love. It just depends on how irrational your state is, if you consider yourself out of love with the BS and in love with OP.

I knew the difference between what I was feeling for OM and what I felt for my H. I never fell out of love with my H. I never felt I was truly in love with OM, I could tell he was just filling avoid. I always knew where the "real love" was in my life.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why did you come back to BS? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because I was his, and he is mine. I cheated our vows, I never had the intent to leave, never would have, sadly I was indulging. Please note, I don't look back on any of it as a pleasant indulgence, it was all horrid!!!!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Is your BS really your 1st choice?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Absolutely. I've never felt love like I feel loved by this man. He has forgiven me, he loves me, unconditionally and I adore him. This is where I belong, no doubt about it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Did you Honestly mean the words you said to BS during the S0-called FOG?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lucky for me, I kept my mouth shut, and DDAY started NC, I did not verbalize my fog, because I was still rational enough to know better.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If you didn't really mean these words, then why were they in your thoughts and why did you say them? I know all the reasons the so-called experts say, rewritng history, feelings of Guilt so they throw it back to BS, etc... (this is NOT what I want to hear) I want the TRUTH.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The WS plays the victim, when in victim mode all this comes into play. I do believe that the very fog bound WS truly does believe the feelings they are having are "real" The real love feelings for the BS, get pushed aside for the twitter-patted in love, soul-mate feelings they are having for the OP. It isn't that they are no longer in love with the BS, it is that they no longer can feel it, because the twitter-patted feelings are more powerful.

Real love is a conscience choice, real love is the 50 year anniversary kind, the love the WS feels is the get divorced 3 times and cheat on your S kind of love. Love is a choice!!!!!!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> For the Women in this group, what was the REAL reason you betrayed your husband?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Andrew, it really seems to me, that you don't realize, this was not your fault. I'm here to tell you, it is not. No matter what your behavior had been, she chose to have an A. The A is all her choice, hold her fully accountable, it is only then that she can fix what led her to have an A in the first place. I'm going to try and bump up a thread for you, that was mine awhile back. It is titled something like WS stop playing the victim.

KY

Hi,

My H had an EA, we recovered poorly, and I ended up in an EA myself. Just so you know where I'm coming from.

Most likely you had an Affair because you lost RESPECT for your BS (me) or you were NOT having your EN's met, in most cases.

I got into the EA because I didn't feel safe with my H. Rather than unmet ENs, I'd say LBs made me feel unsafe. OM felt safe, and you know the rest of the story from there.

Did you Honestly "Fall in Love" with your BS again?

Very much so! It took a lot of work on his part, and a lot of work on my part. I also had to realize that even though he wasn't healing and working the way I would have, he was still doing his part.

How long did it take?

It took a long time - about six months after NC for things to be pretty good, and after a year they were great. It takes longer for the BS because they have to deal with the fear that the WS is still thinking of OP or still has some secrets, etc. The FWS *knows* what's in their heart and so healing and moving on to being happy in the M is faster. However, the WS carries the guilt around for years. The BS generally enjoys peace before the WS, from what I've seen. That takes about 3 years, but a lot depends on the couple and their situation.

Why did you come back to BS?

This is my second M. I didn't want to be a failure at marriage. Also, I have enough sense to know that when tons of people (MB) are saying "give it at least six months of earnest effort before making any decisions" that there must be something to it. I trusted the wisdom others gained through their experiences.

So I guess you could say I came back so I could hold my head up and say I'd tried everything I could before bailing out of the M. I wanted my integrity.

Is your BS really your 1st choice?

Absolutely.

Did you Honestly mean the words you said to BS during the S0-called FOG?

Yes. They were a true representation of how I felt and how I remembered things at the time.

If you didn't really mean these words, then why were they in your thoughts and why did you say them? I know all the reasons the so-called experts say, rewritng history, feelings of Guilt so they throw it back to BS, etc... (this is NOT what I want to hear) I want the TRUTH.

Well, as soon as I saw that things were out of hand with OM (I called him on weekends a few times, or told him some good news that I wouldn't have cared about sharing with any other colleague from work) then I went NC and told H. My fog came after NC. I was in withdrawal and full of resentment toward my H.

I didn't know if I wanted to stay M to him. I didn't think he would get control of his anger and give me a safe place to heal. I was resentful that I'd given up OM on the off chance that H would change. I didn't forget all the good times from early in our M; I was resentful that the good times hadn't continued.

Your comment that you don't want to hear what the experts say, that you want to hear the TRUTH, confuses me. In the typical A the WS does feel horrible guilt and shame, and they act hateful to the BS as a result. People and animals get nasty when they are hurting. Also, the WS desperately needs to feel better about themselves, so they tend to focus on every little failing of the BS, grasping for "reasons" the A happened.

I think the experts are telling the truth when they talk of rewriting history - the WS truly remembers the bad stuff and forgets the good stuff. They feel guilty so they lash out at their friends and family and anyone who criticizes or threatens their self-indulgent actions.

Why is it that you think this is not the truth?

Have you ever been caught in an embarrassing situation? Stealing? Cheating on a test in school? Not washing your hands after using the bathroom? Didn't you want to lie your way out of it or to make some nasty remark? I don't really know what the nasty remark does, psychologically. Somehow it acts as a buffer, or a barrier. It's a "tough guy" mechanism. A shield of sorts.

For the Women in this group, what was the REAL reason you betrayed your husband?

I didn't feel safe emotionally.

ooh, good input from KY!

I'd like to add that although there were LBs in our M, and I felt unsafe, the REAL reason I had the A was because *I* didn't handle that feeling well.

I should have gone to my H and explained how his actions were affecting me. I was afraid to. MY FAULT.

I'm a big conflict avoider. One thing I am having to learn is how to "go into battle" no matter how scared I am. Heh, for me, "going into battle" means saying "Hon, for some reason I take it really personally when you cuss; I find it really upsetting. Could you please try not to cuss at me when you're mad about something, even when it's something else?"

See what a big chicken I am? It's silly, but it's my reality.

I have to learn to SAY how I feel and not withdraw. THAT is why the A happened. I should have said "I don't feel safe" but instead I withdrew.

Ownership of the A is definitely on the head of the WS.

wow, KY and TH have it 100% pegged. i have nothing new to add except to give you another data point.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I had an A because I was not equipped with adult ways to handle, anger, pain, confrontation.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">100% agree!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> all I had to do was ask my H, and teach him how I needed to be fulfilled. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i would change this a bit to say, i was not equipped to know how to ask my H and teach him what i needed.

as for the real reason.. i too felt very emotionally unsafe with my husband and due to so much turmoil going on in my life, work layoffs and re-orgs and my dad's illness and death, i really needed a safe haven. that explains my actions that occured in 2001 and beyond.

what occured while i was engaged and then 5yrs into the marriage was more about me eating up the attention those two people gave me, due to low self worth. i don't feel like i was looking for anything like that to happen, but i didn't have the right boundaries and i was a very easy mark.

I very much want my marriage to my H to work!!! that is my first choice not a booby prize choice.

Wow KY,

Great post. I heard my husband say exactly what you've said....your clarity will give many peace today.

I remember when he told me his A wasn't about me either....it took my at least 6 months to internalize this part. Fortunately my H wasn't fog bound at the time he told me of his affair, so I didn't have to listen to much nonsense.

He ended his affair before he told me about it - he was already remorseful and committed to making a better marriage as a result of his mistake.

I'm one of the lucky ones - recovery is going very well...in fact I'm post recovery!

KY:

Your continued messages of maximum accountability and responsibility are inspirational.

You should be the poster-child for recovered formerly-wayward (see I remembered!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> spouses the world over! May you inspire many BS's to continue on their daunting journey.

Hope you & H are well!

FR <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Originally posted by kyellow4:

Andrew, your pain is so obvious, I'm sorry. ((((ANDREW))))

Thanks, I appreciate it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Your helping the WS justify here.

Yes I am, I blame myself for most of it.

Andrew, it really seems to me, that you don't realize, this was not your fault. I'm here to tell you, it is not.

I still blame myself everyday. I'm having a very hard time with this.

No matter what your behavior had been, she chose to have an A. The A is all her choice, hold her fully accountable, it is only then that she can fix what led her to have an A in the first place.

Actually, I'm a pretty nice guy. Very outgoing, like to have fun, my kids love me, and I thought my wife loved me. I met her the Summer after we graduated HS and we have been together over 27 years. I never thought about being with another woman, even though I've had 100's of opportunities. This hurts really bad.

Thanks for being honest with me.

A bit of background first. ..

I’m a WS but before that I was a BS twice and yes all this happened in the same marriage.

Most likely you had an Affair because you lost RESPECT for your BS (me) or you were NOT having your EN's met, in most cases.

I didn’t lose respect for my wife. I found out about her long EA because I asked. I felt distant from her. More so than we already were. She was in love with the OM or what she defined love at that time. It was tough. The indifference and the coldness wore on me. I never stopped loving her, in fact I think this is when I started loving her for what she was…a flawed human being. During her EA she told me of a brief PA she had a couple years earlier. There were a lot of ups and downs (mostly downs) in the first six months after d-day. It was during this time that I developed a friendship with a woman that was going through similar circumstances as my own. We shared feelings, stories and thoughts. Even though I didn’t want to have an A, I slowly started developing feeling for this girl.

I knew what I was doing but didn’t really try hard to stop it. My wife and I were so distant and she was so wrapped up in the OM she never noticed my focus shifted a bit. The OW met my needs. Admiration and affection were on tap.


Did you Honestly "Fall in Love" with your BS again?

Yes I did. This all took place two years ago but it is only in the last year or so that I finally figured out exactly what love was.

How long did it take?

Better than a year I’d say. I don’t think I knew what love really meant until I really took the time to examine myself and how I could change to be a better spouse.

Why did you come back to BS?

Because I wanted to. Her A never stopped and when she found out about mine it gave her all the reasons she needed to pursue a R with the OM. We separated for five months. During this time her EA became a PA. While we were separated I grew a bunch. My A lasted a month and had been over almost five when she found out. I took this time to really live with myself. I got really involved in church and learned that though I didn’t need her in my life I wanted her in my life.

I think that my W saw this. She had prayed throughout our marriage that I’d find God again and I had. This weighed on her heart and she saw that I had changed a great deal. Over a year after d-day we started our road to recovery and haven’t looked back since

Is your BS really your 1st choice?

For me, yes.

Did you Honestly mean the words you said to BS during the S0-called FOG?

My A was long over when it came to light. Was I in love with the OW? I felt love I think. I know I told her a bunch of fog-laden crap.


If your spouse does not visit this site then "PLEASE" tell the TRUTH. Very Important to me.

My wife does visit this site. I’ll ask her to post here too.

I don’t think this is what you were looking for in a post. Wish I could have been more help.

God Bless

Doug

Originally posted by turtlehead:
Hi,

How long did it take?

It takes longer for the BS because they have to deal with the fear that the WS is still thinking of OP or still has some secrets, etc.

This is how I feel.

However, the WS carries the guilt around for years.

Good, I hope she suffers the consequences of her actions. This is what Steve Harley told me.

Is your BS really your 1st choice?

Absolutely.

Did you Honestly mean the words you said to BS during the S0-called FOG?

Yes. They were a true representation of how I felt and how I remembered things at the time.

Well now I'm really hurting. I was hoping this wasn't true but I always believed it was. People keep saying it's the FOG, but when you know that some of it is true and the WS never told you then the Pain is 10x worse.


If you didn't really mean these words, then why were they in your thoughts and why did you say them? I know all the reasons the so-called experts say, rewritng history, feelings of Guilt so they throw it back to BS, etc... (this is NOT what I want to hear) I want the TRUTH.

My fog came after NC. I was in withdrawal and full of resentment toward my H.

Explain how the FOG was after, and what do "you' mean by FOG?"

I would have thought you had RESENTMENT before the Affair? Were you resentful because you felt your husband put you in this position?

Your comment that you don't want to hear what the experts say, that you want to hear the TRUTH, confuses me. In the typical A the WS does feel horrible guilt and shame, and they act hateful to the BS as a result.

I guess I wanted to hear it from the Horses mouth to beieve it (not that you're a horse) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Does the WS feel guilt and shame during the affair of after?

Also, the WS desperately needs to feel better about themselves, so they tend to focus on every little failing of the BS, grasping for "reasons" the A happened.

This is my wife, she blames me for all of her downfalls. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I think the experts are telling the truth when they talk of rewriting history - the WS truly remembers the bad stuff and forgets the good stuff. They feel guilty so they lash out at their friends and family and anyone who criticizes or threatens their self-indulgent actions.

I had this discussion with my wife last Saturday. She rewrote our entire 27 years. I said was anything good about our marriage?

Why is it that you think this is not the truth?

Not washing your hands after using the bathroom?

I wash my hands about 20x a day. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


Thanks

TA -

Straight answers for your straight questions -

Did you Honestly "Fall in Love" with your BS again?

A: N/A. Am still somewhat undecided, but am pretty close.

How long did it take?

A: N/A

Why did you come back to BS?

A: If I were to go back, it would be because: 1) He's given me some hope that he/our situation could possibly improve. 2) He's proven his unconditional love, despite the pain I've caused w/ my A. 3) Now that my H is willing to work things out, I want to know in my head and heart that I've done everything I can to save the M. And, if nothing changes, a D is then justified.

Is your BS really your 1st choice?

A: Yes. If I thought there was truly a better option, I would take it. Cold, hard fact.

Did you Honestly mean the words you said to BS during the S0-called FOG?

A: When distressed, I tend to say exactly what's on my mind without logic nor forethought. This is why they call it 'fog'. And, usually, I regret what I say under those circumstances. Also, even though I've never suffered through substance abuse, I'm certain that the addiction to an A is parallel to a junky on crack. How much weight to you put into what a crack-head tells you?

If you didn't really mean these words, then why were they in your thoughts and why did you say them? I know all the reasons the so-called experts say, rewritng history, feelings of Guilt so they throw it back to BS, etc... (this is NOT what I want to hear) I want the TRUTH.

A: See above answer

If your spouse does not visit this site then "PLEASE" tell the TRUTH. Very Important to me.

For the Women in this group, what was the REAL reason you betrayed your husband?

A: He always placed his needs (emotional, physical, psychological, financial) before our M. Specifically, he'd spend more money on his hobbies than our means, and he lied about it. He was addicted to his hobbies (spent 12-14 hrs/day). He was lazy - I cooked, cleaned, took care of house/pets, even though he wasn't working and I was. Aside from vacations, he would never (and I mean NEVER) participate in my hobbies/interests although he always expected me to participate in his. He preferred porn to physical intimacy with me.

Additionally, I wrote the following as a reply to a post from a "other man" who was looking for support. I think it'll give you some important insights into the thought process of a WS who has had some time to think about her situation ...

XXXXXXXXXXXX

I'm a WW (notice not yet a FWW). I didn't get to read your post, but I get the picture with what everyone else has said. Obviously, I don't hate you, as I'm neck-deep in this situation myself. However, I do want to mention something that hopefully will shed some light on your situation ... I, like your lady friend, ventured outside of my M b/c I felt that there was some significant deficiencies in my M ... emotional, physical, financial needs unmet, you name it! I fell head over heels for the OM b/c he seemed to have met my every need and can 'rescue' me from my awful situation. And, frankly, if I wasn't married, he and I would probably have made a great life together.

The reality is this: I AM MARRIED. And, the reason I've not been able to file the D is b/c I do still harbor some (albeit remote) feelings for my H, NOT b/c he puts up a fight. If you think about it, what you say is almost contradictory: If my H actually fought w/ me and made it even more unpleasant for me to be around him, it would make my decision so much easier. I don't even have to see him to file the D papers. Lawyers can do that. With this, I'll bet that your lady-friend is going through one or more of the following: 1) she's not revealed everything about her A to her H 2) she still bears some deep-seated feelings for her H or 3) she's trying to see who - you or her H - is really best for her in the long-run b/c that's what everyone is telling her to do. (Note: I've been through all 3, so I know what it's like to vascillate from 1 second to the other, literally.) Unfortunately, none of these scenarios are very kind to you nor to her H, and she knows it. If she's like me, she's feeling an immense amount of guilt and shame, but she's not willing to give up "the best of both worlds." That's why she's afraid to make a 'wrong' decision one way or the other.

Until your lady-friend decides to file for a D, she can never give wholly to anyone else. I can tell you 1 thing ... that what my OM has seen in the past year is a facade. It's what I WANTED him to see (a perfect woman who has had severe problems with her M) and NOT what is REALLY me. To keep his love, he'll never know that there were some very good times in my M, that I did fall in love with my H years ago. He'll never see the enormous guilt that I bear for lying and hiding what's in my head and heart nor know about the nights I stayed up crying wondering who IS right for me. If she is as wonderful as you say, the fact that she's married and seeing another man is TEARING HER TO PIECES.

So, my advice is this - if you TRULY love her and think that there's a remote chance for you two, leave her be so she can have a clear head to make that very important decision for herself. If she feels that strongly for you, she'll have the strength to file the D and be with you. It's like the saying ... "If you love something, set it free, if it comes back to you, it's yours. If it doesn't, it never was."

Note: I asked for NC from my OM nearly 3 weeks ago, and he just couldn't let go because of the very same thing you're saying ... that he loves me. That he thinks I'm the absolute perfect woman for him and that he wants us to live happily ever after. B/c I do care for him and missed him miserably, I caved. Now, I'm starting to resent him for not giving me the time to make my own decisions. Trust me, the last thing you'd want is a wife who realizes half-way through your marriage that she's made a big mistake and either 1) stays with you but resents you for it or 2) leaves you half-way and returns to her ex. Both of these scenarios have played again and again in my head for the last year or so, and it is truly scary.

I know you're probably thinking ... she (this Whisper person) don't know anything about my R. That's not what she's like. Her love is real. The only part that is true is that she probably does care a lot about you. However, if you took the time to think about it, you'll start to see the signs. What you've seen is not reality. It never will be until she makes that decision one way or the other. And, even then, she'll be tormented by self-doubt until she's able to justify it in her own head and mourn the loss of one of you. I know ... like I said, I'm neck-deep in it.

I'm sorry that you have to hear the ugly story, but I'm also certain that these are things she would love to tell you but can't.

One last add as to why I had the A: Because of my situation, I became disinterested, I lost all respect for my H, and I simply gave up. When I separated from my H and had the A, I honestly thought in my heart that it was over. It's still not an excuse to have an A, no matter what. I've certainly learned my lesson the hard way!!!

Keep in mind, every situation and relationship is different.

Hang in there,

Whisper

EXCELLENT Questions. I'm getting the same treatment TA.

Thank you for the candid answers.

The only problem I have is that it seems my WW was in a fog since we were married. She may have NEVER been in love with me.

Steve said he had counseled several arranged marriages and they were now in love.

SIS

Did you Honestly "Fall in Love" with your BS again?

No, because I was never "out of love" with her. What I perceived as "falling out of love" with her was really just our relationship maturing into something deeper.

How long did it take?
It took probably one year after D Day for me to realize that I still loved my W.

Why did you come back to BS?
I loved her.

Is your BS really your 1st choice?
Yes.

Did you Honestly mean the words you said to BS during the S0-called FOG?
At the time I said them, I did mean them. I believed what I was saying was true. It is kind of like an 8 year old saying, "I love Mickey Mouse." Does he mean it? Yes...to the extent that he understands love. But, no adult would ask two years later, "Did you really love Mickey Mouse?"

There is "newlywed love" and "mature love". The "newlywed love" phase of my relationship with my wife ended. I thought that "newlywed love" was all there was. I didn't realize until later that I had something a whole lot better than "newlywed love".

[b]If you didn't really mean these words, then why were they in your thoughts and why did you say them? I know all the reasons the so-called experts say, rewritng history, feelings of Guilt so they throw it back to BS, etc... (this is NOT what I want to hear) I want the TRUTH.[\b]

I think you are asking a more general question--I meant the stuff I said when I said it, but seconds after I said it, I realized it was b*llsh*t.

I had suppressed a lot of anger toward my W during the M, so I had "mind raped" her to death. As soon as you start saying the contorted stuff in your head, you realize that it is ridiculous. But, the only way to get rid of it is to say it.

Hi TA,

I'm so sorry for your pain. I do know what it feels like. I know you're sick of hearing this but it does get better.

Did you Honestly mean the words you said to BS during the S0-called FOG?

Yes. They were a true representation of how I felt and how I remembered things at the time.

Well now I'm really hurting. I was hoping this wasn't true but I always believed it was. People keep saying it's the FOG, but when you know that some of it is true and the WS never told you then the Pain is 10x worse.

There are two important points here.

1) Just because your WW perceives something to be true does not mean it is true. So when she remembers how awful the M was, how awful you are, how wonderful OM is, that does not make it true.

Consider your high school years, a job you've had, or a place you've lived. Depending on what you choose to focus on, any of those can be painted in a very flattering light, or they can be represented as hell on earth. Same kid in high school, same employment experience, same dwelling structure. If this isn't glaringly obvious to you, I can give concrete examples. I won't right now becuase my post is pretty long and I feel I'm at risk of losing your attention due to my wordiness. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

The point is, "reality" changes. Your WW is very, very confused right now. Her reality is not what it will be in 1, 3, or 5 years.

Of course there were many good times in your M. No one stays miserable for 27 years voluntarily. I wouldn't advise you to point this out to your WW, however. She'll just see it as you being bossy, controlling, and manipulative.

2) I remember from my BS days that the lies are SO MUCH worse than the infidelity. It takes WS a long time to "get" this, but they eventually do. It took my H a good year. They reason that the truth would be too painful, that it's in the past so why does it matter, and on and on. Eventually they "wake up" and realize that you know so much painful truth and you're still there with them. They begin to understand that you won't leave and they begin to feel safer in telling the truth. This (deceit) is the worst part of an A, IMO, and it takes the longest to get over. It can be "gotten over" though. The WS has to earn trust back. It is not up to you to learn to trust her again. You'd be an idiot to trust her blindly. She must earn every ounce of your trust.

My fog came after NC. I was in withdrawal and full of resentment toward my H.

Explain how the FOG was after, and what do "you' mean by FOG?"

I would have thought you had RESENTMENT before the Affair? Were you resentful because you felt your husband put you in this position?

By fog, I mean a skewed perspective. A selfish one-sided version of what is. Being so caught up in one's own emotions and wants that there is a failure to step back and consider the big picture in a relatively objective manner.

I don't recall feeling any resentment before the A. I remember lots of hurt, and feeling alone, and lost. I remember desperatley wanting to work through H's EA and him wanting to move on, forget about it all. I was terrified because I didn't know the causes of his EA. I didn't know how to avoid repeating the same scenario in the future. I didn't know what to fix. My attempts to broach the subject were quickly shut down. I felt hopeless, powerless, frightened, and without direction. In OM's company, my much-damaged ego got a boost. I felt interesting, intelligent, talented. There was no anxiety about whether I was good enough, whether the horrible past would repeat itself.

I knew, of course, that NC and telling my H were what should be done, so that is what I eventually did.

The resentment came from giving up a R in which I felt valued for one which past experience had taught me was a losing battle. However, I wanted to work through all the issues in my M. I didn't want to leave my M for another R. I wanted to either have a truly recovered and successful M or to earn my D.

As it turns out, my M is strong and I have learned better ways to deal with issues when they come up. I'm certainly not perfect. Conflict Avoidance will be something I always struggle with, I think, because I grew up with an abusive alcoholic father and I tend to cower and try to please rather than being assertive. I think that's pretty deeply seated and may never go away - but now I understand it and I'm learning how to deal with it to be a more effective and successful spouse.

Originally posted by turtlehead:
Hi TA,

Did you Honestly mean the words you said to BS during the S0-called FOG?

Yes. They were a true representation of how I felt and how I remembered things at the time.

So you Avoided Conflict for years?

There are two important points here.

1) Just because your WW perceives something to be true does not mean it is true.

A lot of it was True, that is why I feel PAIN. How can she get past the RESENTMENT if these are her TRUE feelings?

So when she remembers how awful the M was, how awful you are, how wonderful OM is, that does not make it true.

This is all I hear.

The point is, "reality" changes. Your WW is very, very confused right now. Her reality is not what it will be in 1, 3, or 5 years.

Yes, she is very confused but getting better. She looked so scared, alone and confused a few months ago I thought she needed to be confined to a Hospital. Her world was turned upside down.

She has definately gotten much better. I hope we are still married one year from now, nevermind 5 years.

Of course there were many good times in your M. No one stays miserable for 27 years voluntarily.

All I remember are the GOOD times, she remembers all the bad times. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

I remember from my BS days that the lies are SO MUCH worse than the infidelity. It takes WS a long time to "get" this, but they eventually do. It took my H a good year. They reason that the truth would be too painful, that it's in the past so why does it matter, and on and on. Eventually they "wake up" and realize that you know so much painful truth and you're still there with them. They begin to understand that you won't leave and they begin to feel safer in telling the truth.

I think this is how my wife is feeling, 8 months after D-Day.

This (deceit) is the worst part of an A, IMO, and it takes the longest to get over. It can be "gotten over" though. The WS has to earn trust back. It is not up to you to learn to trust her again. You'd be an idiot to trust her blindly. She must earn every ounce of your trust.

My wife has always been one of the most Honest people I have ever met. This is what shocked me the most. She won't say one word today. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

My fog came after NC. I was in withdrawal and full of resentment toward my H.

This is how my wife was up until recently.


I would have thought you had RESENTMENT before the Affair? Were you resentful because you felt your husband put you in this position?


I don't recall feeling any resentment before the A. I remember lots of hurt, and feeling alone, and lost.

My wife said she had been alone for years.

In OM's company, my much-damaged ego got a boost. I felt interesting, intelligent, talented. There was no anxiety about whether I was good enough, whether the horrible past would repeat itself.

It sounds like this happened to my wife also.

The resentment came from giving up a R in which I felt valued for one which past experience had taught me was a losing battle.

I think this is how my wife feels right now.

I wanted to either have a truly recovered and successful M or to earn my D.

This has been attitude all along. I told my wife I'm going out if need be with my head held high knowing I did everything possible to save our marriage. She has resisted so far.

Conflict Avoidance will be something I always struggle with, I think, because I grew up with an abusive alcoholic father and I tend to cower and try to please rather than being assertive. I think that's pretty deeply seated and may never go away - but now I understand it and I'm learning how to deal with it to be a more effective and successful spouse.

Both of my wifes parents are alcoholics, her father died at 59 from alcohol. Her mother entered a nursing home at age 63.

My wife told me she learned to walk away from people when she was a teenager. She did the same to me. Said she can't stop doing this, it is ingrained in her mind.

She never told me we had problems in 27 years. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Most likely you had an Affair because you lost RESPECT for your BS (me) or you were NOT having your EN's met, in most cases.

Did you Honestly "Fall in Love" with your BS again?

How long did it take?

Why did you come back to BS?

Is your BS really your 1st choice?

Did you Honestly mean the words you said to BS during the S0-called FOG?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I felt neglected. It was definitely a matter of him not meeting my needs, and not really caring about it until it was too late.

My A was an exit affair. I was a "walk-away wife". If you're not familiar with that, its in Michelle Weiner-Davis book and website.

I am divorced and relieved to be. I regret how I handled it. I think the A was the most enormous mistake I ever made. But I would never consider going back to my XH.

I hate to be the voice of doom, but maybe it will help you to prepare if she feels like I did.

Originally posted by Lexxxy:

I felt neglected. It was definitely a matter of him not meeting my needs, and not really caring about it until it was too late.

Did you ever tell this to your husband before you walked away?

My A was an exit affair. I was a "walk-away wife". If you're not familiar with that, its in Michelle Weiner-Davis book and website.

I have her book, I haven't read it all. Just browsed through it.

I am divorced and relieved to be.

WHY?

I regret how I handled it.

I think it was so cowardly of you to do this. My wife said the same thing. Dr H told me my wife was supposed to Nurture our Marriage, not destroy it.

Why did you not CONFRONT your husband with your problems?

I think the A was the most enormous mistake I ever made.

Agreed

But I would never consider going back to my XH.

WHY?

I hate to be the voice of doom, but maybe it will help you to prepare if she feels like I did.

I have.

Were there any kids involved?

TA, your representation of yourself as a BS on the GQ board concerns me. There is excellent insight into the WS mind (great job, all!) through the replies BUT the reality of your situation is that in 6 months worth of accounting for 99% of her time, you have not uncovered ANY evidence that she is or ever has been a WS.

Don't you think that would have been a rather major fact to mention in your intro post or in your replies? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Nikko is still waiting for answers from you on your Recovery Board thread.

Before I begin answering your questions, please remember the opening line of your topic. I realize what I have to say doesn't usually sit well with BS's -- but you don't need to call me a coward or any other things. I'll try to give you my HONEST viewpoint, but not if I'm going to get bashed for doing so. Agreed?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Did you ever tell this to your husband before you walked away?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Many Many Many Many Many Many Many times. I would specifically spell out an EN and how I needed for it to be met...and that information was IGNORED. How would that make you feel? Pretty unimportant and unvalued.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am divorced and relieved to be.

WHY? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because the traits that drove me the most insane about my XH still exist today. He is the one that found MB, and I must say that Plan A was the fraud I suspected it would be.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I regret how I handled it.

I think it was so cowardly of you to do this. My wife said the same thing. Dr H told me my wife was supposed to Nurture our Marriage, not destroy it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Having an affair was a mistake. A huge one. However I must point out that I WAS THE ONLY ONE NURTURING our marriage. When I stopped it fell apart. I am a big giver. When I had nothing left to give I walked away.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Why did you not CONFRONT your husband with your problems? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, what ever made you think I didn't?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think the A was the most enormous mistake I ever made.

Agreed </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">At least we found some common ground! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But I would never consider going back to my XH.

WHY? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My love was gone. It was over before my affair began. My affair was a stalling manuever to get my needs met while I waited out my timeframe for ending my marriage. I had a pretty specific year in mind for divorcing my H. It had to do with the ages of my kids. Of course my whole carefully thought out plan exploded. But, in the end -- I AM HAPPY, and very glad to be single.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Were there any kids involved </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep, 3.