EC,

You really are patient <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> To listen to your WS for three hours and basically talk about herself!
You did a great job, the key is did she notice that she was only concerned with herself?

I'll said again, just guard your heart, one small slip and it could send you back. I think I would limit my conversation with her, believe me she knows how to reel you in! And you know if you hang around the edge long enough, you will fall in! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

All

I will be cruising to Mexico, Cabo, Cancun, etc. It was a great deal, under 600 for last minute travel, 7 days. I'm going with several friends. Leaving on Friday from Los Angeles if you care to 'crash' my cruise, you're all welcome. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Wallace,

No, I have not heard from my H since he left 3 months ago. Maybe I never will until he or I decide to file. I continue to pray for him daily.
If he was truly my husband sent by God, then God is the only one that can change him, and return him, after all he made him <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> He knows him better than I do. I can only work on me at this point.

I admire the fact that you waited until your divorce was almost final before you dated. Being separated, is a very vulnerable time as I am finding out. You almost want to go home with anyone who says a kind word! And believe me there are a lot of men and women out there who prey on BSs' <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Hope all is well with everyone.

God Bless You,
relady

To all, don't have much time - company is here. But, wanted you all to know i have read all the posts and am current. Want to spend my limited time addressing EC.

EC,

Honestly, your post concerns me, because I am conflicted on what to say to you. I personally know several couples, and have seen the same on this board - divorced couples who can't seem to totally disconnect from each other. The bothersome part to me is this in a nutshell: your exW is still letting you meet too many EN's for her. You are willingly doing this because it still meets ENs for you, to have even this peripheral relationship with her. This could go on forever, EC. No real commitments to you from her. Also, I can just "hear" it in your post - you "read" some sort of hope into everything she says or emails to you. My concern is that you will never truly be able to move forward in your own life because you will always still be "waiting" for her. I see that she wants to continue to lean on you for many things, but I do NOT see that she wants to come back and be a stable, monogomous partner to you.

My advice is this. Look, perhaps there IS something here. Perhaps her reaching out to you DOES mean something. You need to get a couple counselling sessions lined up with the Harleys and get some professional advice here. Should you be interacting with her on this sort of level or not??? You don't want to be her emotional crutch for life, without regard for you. If there is a possibility of winning her back, let Steve show you the way. If he doesn't "see" it, then let him guide you on to emotional independence.

This is something you need to do for YOU. You deserve someone who loves and cares about you.

God bless you, EC.

RMA

Hi all!

Avondale: Thanks.

Relady: Enjoy the fun and sun. I loved Mexico minus the noisy countryman following me around like I was a spy. I loved the clear ocean. Oh! be careful not to walk onto one of those beaches where the Europeans are. They like to shed their clothing if you know what I mean.

Wallace: What do you mean that you are going to have to lay out alot of duds to your w? Wothout getting to personal, bottom line it for me. I'm not happy with this news. Do you have a pitbull for an attorney? What does your w owe you and
your kids? You need to ask some hard questions to your attorney. Ask whether the judge will actually go this way.

EC: I'm very concern with you. It is torture hearing your description of the phone conversation. You are not doing yourself any good opening yourself up to your ex like this. At some point, you have to move forward. I agree with RMA; you need to consult a counselor for feedback. I'm afraid that you are opening yourself up to get hurt again. Unless you put a stop to it, your ex will continue leaning on you. Be careful.

Later.

EC, I agree with RMA... seems this could go on forever.... I would try letting go, that does
not mean giving up or moving on.. but is the first step and I think you need to do that
for yourself. In "letting go" sometimes this forces the WS into more reality and they do come back but either way it is a first step in healing the wounds.

Wallace, sorry to here about the $.... I had to pay CS and alimony...yet she was the one that
left and had the A, go figure... I mailed the letter yesterday, not sure who is going to open it, I addressed it to both of them.. I would guess that she would get the mail as she is a stay home mom but either way the message is going to get there tomorrow. Here is the letter:

Dear Steve & Kelly,

We find it very difficult to write this letter to you as is causes all of us a great deal of pain, but we felt that we must be honest with you.
Because certain boundaries have been broken between Steve and Lynn, we both feel that it is the best interest of our marriage to
terminate our friendship. We do not wish to discuss the details of the events that have happened in the past as we can not change
what has already been done, but as we try to rebuild our marriage we must make some difficult decisions that are in the best
interest of us having a successful marriage and this in one of them.

We do wish both of you the best of luck in your marriage and hope that you too can also work out any problems that may exist or
existed in your relationship that lead to this event.

Dave & Lynn

Relady: Enjoy your vacation <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hi All,
relady...
I would love to come down and crash your cruise, but I have a divorce to deal with that week.
I'm looking at taking a vacation somewhere in the the not to distant future... just as soon as I see where I land after this "D".
I agree with your statement that there is a lot of people out there that prey on BSs.
I will probably go out on my first, "official" date next Friday... so I'm looking forward to that. Taking it very slow and mythodical.
Petvet...
My STBXW is in arrears for approx. $6,000.00 and counting in CS, not counting all of the money she stole, forged checks and forged credit card purchases.
This is not counting any future CS payments and tuition payments that she would be responsible for... and since she doesn't pay any of her bills... I will have to find her, and then drag her into court on a monthly basis to get her to pay her share which I'm not very happy about.
In addition my attorneys think I'm going to have to pay her a yet to be determined amount of money that could be quite significant. I don't know the amount yet... because they are still hammering away at it to get it as low as possible... but it doesn't look good.
So, that is a major concern of mine come this Tuesday.
Hope everyone has a good day.
Stay Strong!
Wallace

Hello All,

Thanks for all the feedback, I will consider it all, I will be very careful. I ask myself how do I feel a few days later? Well after pondering on the conversation and looking I find myself somewhat carrying her burdens for her again. Seeing that she is dating someone and yet still wants me there, it would be wise for me to set some boundries as well, just as she mention keep it on a friendship level, I now need to define my definition what friend means in relating to her. I have no problem with other females in keeping things where they need to be but exw knows how to seduce me, she may not know my emotional needs by definition but she knows how to win me to her side with stubtle actions. She studied me for years. I'm not saying im weak and can't resist her and move on, she's not a ugly woman.

If you been together for 21 years and had arguments over time and needed to get the spouse on your side again, shes a pro.

Talking to her has helped me forgive her a little more for my sake, its not all about meeting my love needs right now, its just feels nice that the one who betrayed you wants to talk, who also rejected you, they rejected you and now they're asking a question regarding a place to serve the Lord, agreeing with her in where to worship the Lord is a good validation, anything else I will step back from and set boundries for my emotional sake. I do need to limit my conversation time for now, she's getting cake and icecream.

I do understand about the endless cycle of hoping for a relationship and never letting go and that is a dangerous emotional position to be in.

She's a book reader and I remember earlier this year she told me she has a book about divorce the name I don't know. She could be applying these prinicples to me, It could be called "divorce as friends" I don't know? I could be reading the wrong message into what she is wanting from me, she wants friendship, my thoughts are possible restoration.

Another thing I guess I need to look at also she is seriously trying to get her brother to move from here to down there, I guess thats a clue she's in for the long haul there.

Take Care

EC, I think that ultimately you may be able to be friends with your EX, assuming that is what you want to do, but I know atleast for me, it would be impossible to try to keep it to a friendship level until you have let go, given up, and maybe even moved on, it would just
be too painful. I don't think you are at that point where you need to make that decsion, I know you are still holding out hope that things could be worked out in the future.. but I still think
you need to let go.. it is the first logical step in either direction and will give you some
space to heal.

Let Go
| |
Give

Let
Go
/ \
Give Allow WS
Up space, BS begin
/ to heal
Move \
On Potential recovery

I was trying to make a little diagram in the last post but hit add reply too fast....
My point was they wither you choose to give up and move on OR continue to
try to reconcile, at this point in time I think that Letting Go is still the
first step... it gives you the time and space to start healing and will allow your
X time and space to realize that she misses you and that she is not going to find
the perfect person (ie come out of the fog), and for you to stop meeting some of
her ENs.
Take care,
Dave

okay, so I can't get me little diagram to work <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Hmmmm Dave , did you mean this?

Let
Go
/ \
Give up, allow WS space
BS begin to heal
/ \
Move on to potential recovery

(Do it in word processing program first. But I may have mixed up your words, LOL) Your letter was good...How much of that was worded by your wife?

Wallace, that's a lot of money! It seems kind of paradoxical, she owes you so much in back CS yet you're going to have to pay HER something additional that is "significant"? I'm sure there is more involved than what I'm aware of, but that doesn't sound right to me. Maybe it's the laws of your state? Do you feel confident in your lawyer? I'm sorry this is such a mess for you.

<small>[ October 17, 2002, 04:55 PM: Message edited by: avondale25 ]</small>

Hello Everyone, well it's good ol' friday don't know what I'm going to get into tonight.

Haven't talk to exw since earlier this week. My OD has a email address now so I get to converse with her on a more personal level often.

Regarding moving on and healing that I need to continue doing, I didn't like what I felt later after talking to exw when she started talking about OM, she took me back to the past... . I've been told by exw's female friends who know her who she avoids since her A's said oneday if she ever found out I had a GF or dating partner she would take the first flight to where I live to find out what's going on. They said her thing is as long as I stay single and female free it shows she made the right decision and nobody wants me but if another woman wants me then she realizes someone else thinks I'm attractive and they're happy with me while she gave me up looking for something else. They said she shows she don't care on the outside but said it would eat her up, I'm her partial security.

So sometimes I find it hard to move in that area thinking she may return to invade my new relationship should I get into one, while I do hope she recovers, I can't put my life on hold for the next 2-3 years waiting on her either.

But I am defining what friend means in dealing with her.

Take Care

Hi All,
EC...
RMA gave you some very good advice... she has a way of putting things into perspective and seeing things that I for one over look.
Looking at what you just said, I think you need to move forward as well... for yourself not anyone else.
As hard as it may seem to let go... once you do... "life does start to get better".
I know I heard those words here many times, of course I wasn't experiencing any of it... becuase I wasn't letting go. So I was having a hard time seeing it. But once I did decide to let go completely... it did get better.
Put it in the hands of the Lord, and let him lead your path. Who knows, once your exW sees you moving on with your life, she may start to get her life in order... only time will tell.
Dave...
Just wanted to say that I thought your letter was very well done. I still wouldn't want to be your ex-friend trying to explain that scenario.
You are absolutely right about having to pay for the damage they have done.
I got a kick out of you trying to post that diagram... that was good... LOL
Hope everything is going well for you and your wife.
Avondale...
How do I best explain this mess I have going.
I think it boils down to the fact that I may have too many assets that still need to get divided up equally. In spite of all the damage that my STBXW has done to me financially.
The Judge may give her even more after deducting all that she has taken and owes. I have a telephone conference with my attorney today at 2:00 p.m. to go over everything, and at that point I will probably have bottom line numbers in which to work with.
Walking in with no agreement is just killing me, and even if she is not there, the Judge can rule anyway he so chooses. It is going to be a crap shoot make no mistake about it.
As hard as it is for me to believe, she will more than likely walk away with a good chunk of change after they split the assets vs. debt ratio.
Petvet...
My number is coming up in 4 days, and your not that far behind me. I'm sorry that you ended up in your situation, I was hoping that you would of had a better outcome.
No matter what happens my friend you will come out of it a better person after it is all said and done with... hang in there.
RMA...
Thank you for being there... I hope everything is going well for you.
By the way, do you have any veggies left from your garden?
relady...
Anything new on your end? Let us know how you are making out.
I hope everyone has a good Friday!
Stay Strong!
Wallace

Wallace thanks for the info as you said before you posted it was just your "IMHO" so thats why we post to get other views on the subjects and sometimes another person can have there highbeams on and focused at times when we're just crusin with our hair blowing in the wind.....

You know as I was thinking of all the contacts she's making while she has her BF and you know, I had to stop and think, she's not potentially cheating on me any further, its over I had to think about that, she most likely will cheat on him if not already with all the contacts she's making with all these guys, hmmmm? New guys coming in her life while she has BF? Thats something he will have to deal with, not me, I guess moving on does help, if I don't move on I'll have to deal with it which I rather not.

She told me she contacted old classmates on a classmate site, I went to see what she was talking about, I've seen advertisement but really didn't care about seeing old classmates, some turned my stomach 20 years, I don't need a another turning 20 years later, I see many around town that I like, Well I get to the site, of course who did I see? Her exw!, she posted her picture up and said please contact me I want hear from you....Nothing wrong with that but she's looking for somebody to sow some wild oats with in her state of mind..

Thanks guys and gals for all your replies, being on Petvet's "Tough Love Thread" is like being with the Generals!!

Take Care..

Hi EC,
I think you are starting to get the picture.
Why on earth would you want to become part of what your exW has going on... especially now.
You don't need that in your life. You need to start looking after yourself, take care of yourself... begin healing, and allow yourself to move forward.
She isn't cheating on you anymore... you guys are not M anymore. Let some one else deal with what she has to offer. Who in their right mind would want to live with what you described.
It will all catch up with her in time.
Her actions speak much louder than words.
Let her go... and if by chance someday she finds herself and starts walking with the Lord... then and only then (if you haven't moved on already yourself) would I even think about taking or wanting her back.
You deserve much better... be good to yourself. Lean on the Lord and have him direct your path.
It's a hard road to travel, but it gets easier as you continue your journey.
Stay Strong!
Wallace

<small>[ October 18, 2002, 04:40 PM: Message edited by: Wallace ]</small>

Hi all!

EC: I think you have gotten the message now. Move your attention elsewhere.

Wallace: Now I get it. I figured you must have a lot of assets divie up. Listen to this! I'm not an attorney, but listen to this argument to the judge. Judge, I understand that mt w and I have alot of assets; however, due to my w's lack of dependability and stability, any CS and tuition help is doubtful without incurring further attorney fees and lost wages on my part. I think that I should maintain large percentage ot my assets since my kids only have me to depend on financially. I will probably have to sell assets in order to maintain my kids standard of living and college tuition. Also, if you were ever to die, your kids would need those assets to live on and maintain their standard of living. YOU MUST FIGHT TOOTH AND NAILS FOR YOUR ASSETS. THIS WILL BE YOUR ONLY CHANCE. This may be what your w is waiting on. MAKE SURE YOUR ATTORNEYS UNDERSTAND THIS.

Dave: Someone is either on their hands and knees right about now begging for forgiveness or someone is lying their ---- off. I'm happy that you and your w are on the same page. Things continue to look good.

Avondale: How are things going with you?

Me: Less than three weeks and counting. W has been calling everynight now to speak to son. Whenever we talk, I keep the conversation very short and business.

Later.

To all, I am pressed for time, again. I wish I could answer all of you, and will do my best to do so soon.

EC,

Here is something to think about. Try to distinguish between being "friends" and being "friendly". I think it is healthy and good to get to the point where you can continue to be friendly with your ex-spouse. A whole lot of hurt goes on during an affair and a divorce. It is a mature thing for both parties to be able to get to a friendly level after all of that has occured. Yet, I for one, don't see a need for ex-spouses to be big "friends". Maybe it works for some, but IN GENERAL, I don't think it works best for both parties to try to be friends right off the divorce.

To me, being a friend means that you will expend time and emotional energy on each other. EC, that is exactly what is happening in your case. You are spending precious emotional energy on your exW, that is needed for your own healing. You need to be spending your efforts on building a happy and fulfilling new life for yourself. It is hard, because you were forced out of a life that was once happy and fulfilling for you, and then it was taken away from you.

Yes, EC, I think it is good to be friendly and converse on a few matters. But hours of conversation just get you sucked back into an emotional relationship with her that is one-sided. It prevents you from "seeing" that she only wants from you what SHE wants. It is not about 2 people putting effort into building a relationship. I continue to think your exW just wants to keep you in the game. She really doesn't want to be in a monogamous relationship with you, but she isn't ready to 100% let you go either.

In my own case, I used to think that it was quite significant that my then H couldn't file for the divorce. I used to think it "meant" something. In my heart, I convinced myself it meant he continued to love and care about me, even though he was gone and was "loving" someone else. It took me an awful long time to realize what it meant - he was just being selfish and wanted to keep me in the game. Truly, that was all it meant.

I believe this next statement with all of my heart: If your ex-spouse realizes at some point in the future that he/she made a huge mistake and they want to try to get back with you - then he/she will come back around and he/she will knock themselves out silly trying to PROVE to you what a terrible mistake they made and that you are the ONLY person they love. ANYTHING LESS THAN THIS IS JUST MORE OF THE SAME OLD, SAME OLD!!

My heart goes out to you, EC. It is HARD to give up your hopes and dreams for the family you had and loved. Look, it isn't that you have to run out and try to get a girlfriend. That is not what "moving on" is about. It is about opening your heart and your life to other possibilities that will allow a sense of peace and happiness to come to you. YOU desrve that!!

God bless each of you here. Luv to you all, RMA

RMA
Thanks for making such a distinction between "being friends" and "being friendly". I needed to hear it for myself, so I'm glad you said it for EC. It also applies to the way I'm relating to my H when we speak. He wants to be friends, but I don't agree with that (going from a wife of 25 yrs to friends is not where i'm at). However, I can now be friendly. Three months ago I couldn't say that, though. I think what you've wrote is a good reminder that a lot of people (maybe not on this thread) need to hear.

<small>[ October 19, 2002, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: avondale25 ]</small>

HI Everyone,It's Sunday night, not sure if anyone is on,just wanted to say hi.. Wallace, I will be
praying for you all week as your big day approaches... stay strong..
Dave

Hi all!

RMA: You are absolutely too GOOD. Your destinction between friendly and friends will help many people including myself. As Avondale said, it's hard for one to go from a committed marriage to friends. Along with her, I cannot go there. EC, I hope you understood what RMA was saying. Don't waste anymore emotional assets on your ex. As RMA said, if she wants you back, she will break down walls trying to get you. My w is trying to keep me in the game, but I am staying steadfast to being short and business with her.

Wallace: I'm thinking about you. I wish you well, tommorrow.

Later.

Hi Everyone,
I would like to thank everyone for their support for me tommorrow.

I have to be at the Court house @ 7:00 a.m. to go over everything with the attorney prior to going into the Court room.

Thank you Petvet for the advice... It does have to do with dividing up quite a bit in assets. I like what you said, and I believe my attorney is going to present that point to the Judge. Thanks again for the advice.

Well to put it all into perspective... I never in my wildest dreams would of thought I would be getting a divorce. I took my vows very seriously. But life has a way of taking twists and turns along the way. Unfortunately myself and my children were in the line of fire concerning this situation.

I am going to type in my signature line... probably for this one time... it's too long to run with as a sig line. Plus it's too confusing to make any sense of unless you lived the nightmare.

Ec... you have got some great advice, it's probably time you take a look at it,and try to build from there.
If your exW wants you back, she will in fact do everything in her power to win your favor back.

Stay Strong!

Wallace

BS-me 49
WW 42
M 2/24/79 23 yrs.
3 children OS23 OD19 YD16
WW leaves numerous times over the last 3 yrs. of our marriage. evidently was having numerous affairs with numerous people during this time.
Numerous reconcilitations over the last 3 yrs. wasn't sure if she was truly having an A, but suspected.
WW became pregnant by OM, not sure by which OM, there were too many to keep track of
WW has abortion 2/15/02 without my knowledge... didn't even know she was pregnant.
D-Day 4/19/02 suspected prior to that, but not enough hard evidence.
I Filed for "D" Oct 27, 2001 I had had enough.
Last attempt at R 12/18/01 to 4/19/02
No contact with WW since 4/19/02
D final on 10/22/02

<small>[ October 21, 2002, 08:35 PM: Message edited by: Wallace ]</small>