Mimi,

Congratulations to you too. In many ways, this renewal of your S's relationship with his Dad is a bigger deal than FGG's house. I hope this is the beginning of many good times between them.

I wish I had found a way to connect with my W's nephew-22 just recently moved out with no more than 20 words passing between us. I feel the pain of my failure to connect with him, but with my marriage situation, I don't have any energy to put in to N22 and his presence was a very bad thing for our marriage.

-AD

AD:

Thanks for the kind words. The opportunity for their experience on Friday came about almost miraculously as if there was really divine intervention. It's almost scary how it happened!

BTW, guys, I failed to mention the other good news that is coming up for me. My OS is graduating from college this weekend. H told me this morning, "there's a major milestone coming up for us this weekend". In the back of my mind, I'm thinking, "What if you weren't here?"

I'm trying to allow myself to be happy. However, it is scary after so many months/years of sadness and distress....

UNBELIEVABLE!!

Wow, Mimi...lots of changes coming up for you.

Congratulations on OS's graduation. Is he continuing his education, entering the work force, or some other option?

Seems like you said YS is going to be leaving for college. Are you and and H going to be empty nesters? If so, that will be even more (and possibly positive)changes for you.

I am so glad H and YS had this major breakthrough now.

You deserve it. Your batteries are being recharged.

Georgia

Georgia:

YS just finished his first yr. of college and is coming home for the summer. We have been empty-nesters since August. Now we have to adjust to him being home again. OS is going into the workforce. Even better yet, he is working in my H's business. He wasn't at home during the A so their R is better....

Lots of changes! Going on to the next chapter in our lives. So far, we are off to a great start. As I have indicated, though, I'm biting my fingernails today. REALLY! Don't tell the GODDESSES!

Don't worry, your secret is secure with me. And...you can get this cheap stick-on nails in Wal-Mart if you get desperate. (Wear the pink sunglasses so no one will recognize you).

BTW - I decided to go home for lunch today and I walked over and talked to Reggies' mom. She said she would be glad for me to put up a basketball goal for him. So I'm going to stop on the way home and get one. If all goes well, I will install it for him this evening.

I dread telling Reggie that I'm moving. I will task you with making sure that I walk back over to his house from time to time to play basketball.

I've got him a net, ball, pump, and a some needles. Get the hoop up, we're ready to play basketball.

Georgia

Good Morning to all -

Reggie now has a basketball goal in his backyard. Before I finished putting it up, 2 more kids about Reggie's age (Tackqon (sp?) and Shaq (really)) showed up before I even finished it and all 3 of them stood there and watched. As soon as I finished, they played HORSE until dark.

Reggie declared me the best neighbor he has ever had - sigh... He was too excited for me to tell him that I'm moving.

Georgia

FGG:

That's cool!

Maybe what you need 2 do is pick a day or 2 a week where you go over there regularly 2 play. But it's good that he also has friends his age 2 play with.

Shaq! THat's great! (When I was in 7th grade, there was a kid named Perry Mason in our school).

=ol' 2long

Good Morning, 2Long -

I do think I will need to keep up a friendship with Reggie.

I have never seen another kid at Reggie's house, so I don't know how word got out that he was getting a basketball goal. But...they sure showed up quickly. One of them kept calling me "Mr. Worker".

I will miss seeing Reggie everyday when I get home. He always meets me with a polite "Excuse me, excuse me..." and then asked me some general question like "what is your dogs name?" or something like that which is just his way to start a conversation. Perhaps now he will have neighborhood kids to play with now that he is "a man of means" and has a basketball goal.

I have a feeling that my new neighbor, Mrs. Reece, is going to be my new "Reggie". It is obvious that she and the outgoing homeowners are very close.

Georgia

Georgia or "MR WORKER":

The difference that you are making in Reggie's life is touching my heart.

Mine too, Mimi....

I am learning a lot about myself through this experience. It seems like the older I get, the softer and more emotional I get.

You used the word "bittersweet" yesterday in referring to my new house (hereafter referred to as "home"). I thought about that a lot last night.

Right now, everything I do is bittersweet. Playing ball with a fatherless kid next door is rewarding, but bittersweet. Reggie has so many needs....what will he become as he ages, What kind of teenager will he be? Man? Husband? Father? Those things haunt me.

In taking part of the mission activities at our church, the need (both physical and spiritual) just seem so overwhelming. Even talking with Mrs. Reece....a kind lady who was married for 71 years (sweet) the pain of loss is just below the surface (bitter).

The poverty I see in some houses nestled among the restored ones in this neighborhood. Almost like 2 classes coexisting. Bittersweet.

Anyway...I'm pontificating again.

Mr. Worker

Hey Georgia!

I've been reading about you almost daily, but never could sign in on this new forum. So I signed up under a new name...

I think you are doing great!!!

The house looks super, your new companion seems to be a perfect fit (the dog), and your family stands next to you with pride in who you are. God IS smiling on you...

Take care!

Gib <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Good Morning to all –

Yesterday afternoon just as I was getting ready to leave work, my desk phone rang and I answered it. It was WW. She told me I sounded pleasant and asked if we could talk for a few minutes. So I thought, okay….one last time…and I said okay.

So…she started telling me about her counseling and how that is going and how her counselor is helping her see things about herself. She apologized for being so mean to me and said she realizes that she was trying subconsciously to hurt me.

Then she started telling me that she doesn’t talk to OM so much any more and that he is still with OMW. I asked her how much she talks to him and she said she doesn’t know. I asked if she would take a guess at how much and she wouldn’t guess. I asked her if 3,315 minutes during the month of April sounded about right. She said the phone bill reflects old calls and that was how much she was calling him when I left home because she was so lonesome. I told her that the current phone bill reflected actual calls between March 22 and April 22. She said she wouldn’t need to talk to him so much if her family would talk to her. I reminded her that she was doing the same thing before I left home and the boys quit coming around her.

She told me that she would like to work on our marriage. I told her AGAIN that I would not work on a marriage with another man involved. She said she could not give up he R with OM, but that she would promise me she wouldn’t put another man before me. I asked her what that meant, how much of an R with OM would I be expected to put up with? Then she made that dreaded, awful statement that just drives me insane: “You know, he can be your friend, too.”. I again asked her to never, never say that to me again.

I told her that as I have said, I am going to divorce her if she continues her R with OM. She told me that she was offended that I would offer her alimony of $800 a month for 2 years.

Anyway, we talked for over an hour and she started getting really angry towards the end. I finally told her that I was leaving and I didn’t want to hang up on her, but goodbye….then I hung up.

My work cell rang before I got home. It was BellSouth calling asking me if it was okay for them to transfer service out of my name into my wife’s name. Seems she called them as soon as we got off the phone to solve this problem of me knowing how much she is talking to OM. Same old WW, secret passwords on e-mail, secret e-mail accounts, now hidden phone bills.

When I got ready to head out to pottery, Reggie and Shaq were playing basketball. I walked over and Reggie ran up and hugged me and asked me to play. So I shot some baskets with them before leaving. Still haven’t told Reggie.

Last night was the last class of this pottery series. We did Raku glazing and I brought a lot of stuff home. Some looks great (like my chips / salsa dish) some looks terrible (like my cup). I’m going to give my Mom the chips / salsa dish for Mothers’ Day.

I am typing this at home early Wednesday morning. I have an appointment with the attorney this morning at 9:00 AM, I’m going into work after that. I plan to show him the e-mail that I sent to WW, along with my proposals. I need to get his input regarding some financial matters about buying the house.

Georgia

That is GREAT news that she is getting help...she is making progress in HER life. But after a phone conversation with you, she got RIGHT BACK INTO THE SAME PATTERNS...we'll see how fast a learner she is. There was a clearing in the fog, but when faced with the reality of giving up her addiction...she went right back into it...

It reminds me of this poem...

The Hole


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One
I walk down the street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I fall in.
I am lost ... I am helpless...
It isn’t my fault.
It takes forever to find a way out.


Two
I walk down the same street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I pretend I don’t see it.
I fall in again.
I can’t believe I am in this same place.
But it isn’t my fault.
It still takes a long time to get out.


Three
I walk down the same street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I still fall in... it’s a habit...
But my eyes are open.
I see it is there.
I know where I am.
It is my fault.
I get out immediately.


Four
I walk down the same street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I walk around it.


Five
I walk down a different street.

******
Author Unknown.



I think she has made it to two...she may be there forever...

Does WW know about the house?

How selfish of her to think you will support her in her A. And to think you will support 2 households because you are too selfish to share her with another man (heavy sarcasm).

It will be interesting to see how fast (or if) she moves along this street...

Hi SHMI -

Nice poem.

What concerns me is that she may have a counselor who may accept this whole thing. WW told me her counselor is "non-judgemental". I'm not quite sure what she means by that...I find it kinda disconcerting. However, I do indeed hope her counselor is helping her.

WW knows that I have contacted my realtor, but she doesn't know I have bought a house.

However, I was able to talk with her without getting angry or LB'ing (I think). The longer she talked, the angrier she got. It was interesting that one of the things she asked me was how could I ask her to give up a friend who had helped her so much and gotten her into counseling? I find that amazing, not matter what h*ll she goes through because of OM, he has helped her more than anyone in her whole life. I'm not quite sure what credit he gets for getting her into counseling as it was her attorney who suggested in court on March 28 that her client might need counseling. OM can do no wrong!!!!!

Okay, I digress....

Georgia

I'll put it out here...sort of a T/J Rant...but you brought it up.

Counselors/therapists/helping professionals can only work with what they have...they are often depended upon to work miracles...to "fix" people. They get a bad rap by folks on here because it is mysterious what goes on behind that door. The only way an outsider knows of what goes on 'in there' is by how a person acts afterwards, or what they say happens...often meanings are misconstrued and misunderstood. ("The counselor said he understood the pain I'm feeling in this M so he must mean it's a bad M and OK to D.") How would you like to work in a profession where your worth is measured by the people recieving (and often misinterpreting) your words. It's like an engineered getting promoted based on a project he described to be built by a manufacturer over the phone in Singapore.

A good helper worth their salt will NOT give advice about what they think a person needs in their life (unless asked). A counselors job is to help a person with whatever problem the client wants to work on... And although miracles often happen, it is often the case where a person is ready for change when the counselor appears, or the words are said.

That means, if a client wants a D...that's what a counselor will help with. If they want a M, that's what they will help with. (Or not help with if the counselor is not behind that...) Whatever changes a person is motivated to make in their life, are the changes a counselor can help with... In many cases a person will walk in wanting one thing, but leave wanting something else...a counselor can help a person explore the core issue of what they REALLY want. If a person can stick through at least a few sessions, they may understand that a counselor is not agreeing or disagreeing with a decision unless they have thought through it. Just because a person wants to see a counselor to get a D or a MC to stay together, doesn't mean that is what the outcome will be. Hopefully a counselor will help a person explore all the consequences to decide. Sometimes going down the D path is what a person needs to decide they don't want it.

When FWH and I, after months of MC, told our counselor we were thinking of D, he was saddened, but then began talking about how we would do that...scared us both into staying together. D is easy to say, hard to think about, and even harder to do...
OK, Rant over...

I'm willing to bet what is going on in counseling is your W is bringing up so many of her life's problems...not much has to do with you...and says she wants you and OM too. The counselor has probably talked with her about this dilemna, but has given her food to chew on only...it's up to her to decide. The good thing about counseling is she will have a reasonable person to bounce some ideas off of and the counselor can tell her how illogical her thinking is and expectations are... But there is a fine line with giving the person respenct, and respecting even bad decisions, and completely shunning them away. I'll be willing to bet she hasn't gotten much farther with the counselor than that she hates to cook for herself and how unfair life is...

The good thing about going to the counselor is that *possibly* she won't feel the compulsion to talk with OM as much, because she has someone else to talk with.

And I'll be willing to bet the counselor can see through her stories...

The counselor can't help her make an apple pie if all she brings are lemons...i.e. counselor can't help her get back to the M if she insists on keeping OM.

Have faith that God is working through this counselor, pray for the counselor, and pray that your WW opens her mind, heart, and ears to the words...

Oh man...post went to middle Earth. I'll try again.

Okay, I agree with your perspective on counselors, however...I think we agree that there is a wide variation in the competence / philosophy of counselors. Agree? With that being said, I know that this lady was hand picked by WW and her B (very liberal). WW doesn't like SH or the local C that I've / we've seen and condemned both of them. I also know that #1S, working with a local dr., came up with a list of area psychiatrists for her to see. However, she didnt' see any as "psychiatrists aren't what they used to be and I don't agree with their philosophy". So...hence the reason for my concern about this "non-judgemental" counselor.

I agree that the counselor calibrates their compass based o what the client wants to do. I know when I saw the local MC last year and told him my story, he asked me what I wanted to do. I set the direction at that time.

With that being said, what do you think (conjecture) that WW has directed her IC that she wants out of all of this?

Georgia

Hi Georgia:

You asked:



In my opinion, what does this matter? I don't think you will ever know what's going on in those sessions. I've had a bitter taste of this ever since my FWH spent weeks in counseling and would go to see OW after the sessions. He just used the counselor to help himself feel better about what he was doing. He complained to her about how awful I was and she supported this. As long as she remains in the fog and talking to him, she remains addicted. A counselor who does not understand this is only enabling the A. This is the same as how counseling is useless for alcoholics until they decide to stop drinking.

Bottom line is your WW is continuing contact with the OM. She may be cracking some. She may be feeling the weight of the divorce. However, what is most significant is your PLAN B and you moving on with your life.

I continue to respect how you are handling this situation. I hope you don't let this contact with her get you off your path to start trying to wonder what's going on with her and in her mind. It continues to be the same thing- foggy, alien-induced thinking!!

WW is right about psychiatrists. Many have become resources for medication prescribing and monitoring, dealing often with the medical issues around mental illness (schizophrenia, clinical depression). Not a bad choice for WW to start with from your past posts. Often psychiatrists are too expensive for insurance companies to pay for more than once every 6 month visit, so often are just used for medication monitoring.

Psychologists, counselors, social workers, therapists, pastoral counselors are the day to day, in the trenches, life issue helpers.

My conjecture? Simply a guess...she is probably complaining about her life and how miserable she is, how no one understands her.

A counselors best tool is NOT to educate a client, but to get them to realize for themself what their answers are...what we call the lightbulb moment. The way they do that is by asking very intense, open-ended questions.

Questions I would ask your WW?

"What do YOU think your family thinks about your life now?"

"What do you get from the OM that you can not live with out, or that you cannot get from your BH?"

"If you could change one thing about your life, what would it be?" (This is a tough question, most folks want to answer "to change someone else", but being very direct about a change THEY want to make can illicit some movement in their life.)

"What would you like your life to be like?"

(And if she answers..."have OM and BH too.") But, your BH has been very clear he will not accept OM in your life, how will you reconcile this?"


Sometimes it is a slow process, and some of the ideas they will come up may not work...you walk through the consequences. If it is something that may work, you work out a plan of how it will work...and they report back. Even if it is a plan that you know won't work, they can try to bring back info next time.

That is what may have been happening, she was trying again to get you to 'see the light' to report back to the counselor. Do you the think the counselor will be surprised about how the conversation went...saying ht esame thing over and over again and in the words of Dr. Phil "How's that workin' for ya?"

Any of those questions can be misconstrued as agreeing with her lifestyle...it is simply "meeting her where she lives." Respecting where she is right now in this process of figuring things out, and helping her get to where she is healthier and happier.

It is true a counselor can guide a person into thinking a particular way by the questions they ask ("How long have you been hiding this from H?" or "How far will you let this go before you allow the D to happen?") But a counselor cannot make a person change who they are...

Please pray that your WW will hear the words the counselor is saying, and trust that she is getting help. Let God have this. Just because it is not a counselor of your choosing, doesn't mean it wil work or not work... Allow yourself to not be in control of this.

I hear there are some wacky counselors out there, but I haven't met any. And if she is listening, the counselor can't be half bad...

I suspect that both of you are hitting a lot of truth here.

Mimi...I think we may have another similarity. I think that WW is trying to convince IC that she is married to an animal and she has been driven to OM. I think the fact that she is at least going to IC helps somewhat alleviate her guilt because "she is working on the M, BH isn't, right?". But then, she will go home and spend 2 - 3 hours on the phone with OM.


SHMI - What you are saying is exactly what my IC does with me. He told me a story last session about a movie where a guy had to choose to save his W from drowning and go on with misery, or let her go and be done with it. His intent (I suppose) was to make me question myself as to whether or not I'm ready resign her to her own self. And it has worked....I've really thought about that since then.

This did a bit befuddle me a bit, talking to her for an hour yesterday. I actually had the little "heart race" I used to get when I would hear her voice. I so WANTED to talk to her.....But then it became obvious that this is a conversation about not really "US", but "WW + OM", with a side order of Georgia. What a let down. And...the longer we talked the angrier she got, she is so villiafying me right now, like I've never done anything right and I am so far from what she needs in a H. Sigh....

My attorney this morning told me (and he's not a counselor) that I should anticipate her anger to build as the D draws closer as she will attempt to justify her actions by belittling me in her own mind, and to others whenever possible.

BTW - I should have a court date by the end of the week.

To back up a minute....I've caught myself having thoughts of how it would be to be moving into my new home along with W (not WW). It would be soooo very nice.

I asked her to tell her counselor 2 things. I asked her to tell her 1)how many years she has been keeping her communications with other men secretly password protected from her H, and 2) how many minutes per month she is talking to OM.

I doubt that she has told either of those tidbits to the counselor, and I think if she did it would really open her eyes. However, I doubt she will ever tell that as it doesn't fit with her perception of reality at this time.

I continue to think that WW has a long, long way to go with herself to ever be able to enter into a meaningful and fulfilling relationship with anyone.

Georgia

Hi Georgia,

I intended to say the same thing you are hearing from others.

My attorney this morning told me (and he's not a counselor) that I should anticipate her anger to build as the D draws closer as she will attempt to justify her actions by belittling me in her own mind, and to others whenever possible.

Your attorney said almost exactly what I was going to say. Be ready for anything including out right lies about you. Or course we don't know how far your WW will go, and we hope for the best, but some have been accused of breaking the law, and the cops have gotten involved. Please don't be shocked at anything, and I am really glad your attorney knows in advance how it sometimes goes.

I think you are right about "he is an animal" - you WILL be made to look bad if it can be done.


It sounds like you already know, and preparing. I was going to suggest saying something like "It doesn't matter what you think, or what you say, or what you tell others. Until OM is gone, and you can prove that he is gone, you will not have a relationship with me again."

I think she is saying to her self "if this is going to come apart, it is going to be his fault." My take is that she still doesn't have a clue as to how it will be. The devil is so good at what he does, and it is so sad, but she is in the drivers seat. I am so sorry.

God be with you.

SS