ok...coming up

Whew.....where to start?

GOOD EVENING, MIMI...(there, retroactive)

I went down to the nursing home yesterday afternoon after lunch with #1S/DIL. When you walk in, you're facing the dining hall. Mrs. Reese was in there and starting waving her arms wildly. I went in and she was nearly hysterical. Seems that in her mind there had been some kind of a big disturbance by a lot of men and they told her they were going to rape her. She told me that her son was in on it too. She was so very upset.

I sat down with her calmly and held her hand, then I asked her if she knew who I was. She did, but she got my name wrong (but only slightly). I didn't address what she was saying, but I talked to her about how much both of her sons and her daughter are trying to help her, and how much the people there care about her and trying to help her. She seems to really calm down and we were able to start talking.

But, she looked right at me and said "Why is God making me keep living when I'm so miserable?". I asked her if she had had a good life, and she said she had. I asked her if she had been happily married for 71 years, and she said yes. I asked her if her kids loved her, and she said yes. I told her that I saw the Bible, I read what she wrote in it and that I knew she had lived such a good life. I told her that we don't always know why we go through hard times, but that we can still be thankful for what we have and the good times that God has given us. She seemed to really agree.

She wanted some Ensure, so I got that for her. She really seemed to calm down, and I prayed with her when I got ready to leave. She almost panicked when I told her I was leaving, so I told her that I would come back and visit again.

Georgia

What a BLESSING you are to Mrs. Reese!

She probably would do so much better if she could go home. She's depressed there and must be awfully scary for her to be out of her familiar surroundings.

I would make sure to let her daughter know how you found her.

All you can do is just be there for her. You are serving some special purpose in each others' lives. Did you see the movie FRIED GREEN TOMATOES? It really has similar themes to your present life.

Hang in there, GEORGIA. According to my viewpoint, you will be BLESSED yourself for the difference you are making in so many lives.....

Later, my friend....

Thanks, Mimi

Yes, I saw FGT, but it's been a long time. I would like to see Mrs. Reese back home, but I don't know if that will happen. I will talk to her daughter per your suggestion.

I'm not doing well myself right now (maybe tomorrow will be better). #2S/DIL wrote me an e-mail telling me they didn't think I was doing the right thing divorcing Mom. You know how I am, wanting to please everyone (especially my kids). This is so hard.....

But...there is still absolutely no indication that WW will be giving up OM.

I feel like everything is all closing in on me at once. So much stress everywhere, and even at work now. I'm glad the guy I came out here to see was gone, I may not have presented myself in a Christian way if he had still been here.

I feel like I'm in a real spiritual battle for my life. So much going on that is good, but the death of my marriage looming so large in my mind.

Georgia

And...I get sworn in as a CASA volunteer tomorrow morning at 9:00 AM.

Have a good evening.

Georgia

Nite folks.....

Wow, I am a people pleaser too, and I must say the situation with #2S/DIL has brought up some strong emotions in me (and before now).

Time to talk seriously with #2S/DIL and talk about the situation...how many years it had been going on...and what your Plan A and Plan B has been like. Perhaps you can brainstorm some other alternatives to the situation...if they can see another way other than D? You can let them know D has not been entered into lightly...it has not been a whim or a mid-life crisis like the WW has professed it to be...

Would they want to talk with you? And how would you be able to talk with them without making them feel they are put in the middle as mediator, go-between, liason, etc...

You are a good man.

Thanks, SHMI...

I plan to invite them out tomorrow night after church to talk with them.

I want to be very careful not to make them think that I am trying to change their mind (even though I suppose that is what I am doing). Also, I don't want them to feel that I will go through with this only if they approve, therefore placing part of the burden of this decision on them.

Also, I've wanted to be careful not to "vilify" their Mom to justify my actions. It seems I've got to walk a fine line in order to express why I feel like the time has now come for a divorce, and why other alternatives aren't realistic.

I know that I've got to follow the advice that I've been dishing out to the GODDESS....

GOOD MORNING, MIMI....

SHMI - I am excited about the CASA swearing in this morning. I'm anxious to get my first case.

Georgia

Morning Georgia:

I guess you know that I have struggled with the need for your divorce, too.

I thought it was your only LEGAL RECOURSE.

A couple of things....

I was in the same shoes as your son and had a hard time with my parents divorce-even at the age of 30. I grieved when my F remarried. I was very angry with him. When he and his wife split up, I began to fantasize again about my parents getting back together. They almost did; in fact, were dating and then my F died. You see my bias here.....Who says that children can easily accept their parents divorcing? NOT ME.....

You see my bias.

Your son probably has some of the above feelings. He also likely shares my religious beliefs which play into this. God brought you and your WW together. Satan is tearing you apart. You know the beliefs.

So you might want to approach them from both of these vantage points, the grief/emotional issues and the religious point of view. This probably is blowing his mind considering how he has been raised in such a strong Christian household.

It's really a wake-up call for him and I really feel for him, for all of you, for all of us, who are living this TRAGEDY. Lord knows, you are doing the best you can with this awful situation. As you have told me, I would empathize with him regarding the above issues and ask him to try to empathize with you. They, in being newly married, don't want to think that something like this can happen to them. They want to think that marriage is happily ever after. It's so sad that DADDY can't tell them that is the case. It's like telling him that there is no SANTA CLAUS.

Just LOVE THEM.....and....TALK TO THEM. They might not be able to understand because this stuff is not RATIONAL is it?

Hang in there. I continue to pray for you and your family.

I'll remind you later when you wrote this

I'm anxious to get my first case.


There will be times in the case when it will hurt your heart. It was hardest for me when I had to write the report and give my recommendation, because I was going to make SOMEONE unhappy... It will be tough for you living alone because you won't be able to share this pain with us or with your WW. It does sound like your DS' are good counsel though.

My suspicion is that WW has been rationalizing and ranting to #2S/DIL. Maybe she realizes she needs some allies in her corner and is trying to play nice. I'll bet you anything she has minimized the amount of contact she has with the OM. I think it is time you are VERY clear with #2S/DIL about the amount of time she spends with OM. Do you have the copies of the phone bills still? They probably won't beleive you unless you offer them concrete proof (too easy for WW to pooh-pooh it away). No reason to villify WW, but also don't keep the truth and the proof from them, let them make up their own mind. Lead them here to MB and invite them to read Dr. Harley's principles?

Oh yeah!

Congratulations!!!

Still:

I agree with what you are saying.

I would also stress, though, that Georgia needs to speak to his S's heart. When the heart is hurting and speaking loudly, information and proof of the OM may not matter as much-especially when this is in regards to his MOTHER. This is not all about being rational. Georgia, will need to look him in the eyes to see how much is rational and how much is about his HEART HURTING and wanting MOMMY AND DADDY back together and NOT WANTING TO SEE UGLINESS IN THE WORLD..... WANTING EVERYTHING TIED BACK UP IN NEAT LITTLE PACKAGES AGAIN...

I guess you can see I've been there. Maybe identifying too much here with the son......

BTW, both of my parents were guilty of infidelity in their marriage.....

I have always thought your WW has been in EA(s). First one and then this other. I don't remember if either ever went as far an actual PA.

Did you have evidence of sexual tension involved in these relationships? Have their communications been sexual in nature or has it stayed somewhat platonic with lots of admiration thrown in.

I understand that either way the 'friendships' have been disrespectful of your marriage and that she has placed their friendship above your marriage in being adament that she will not end it out of respect for your feelings. She is addicted to whatever she gets from her friend and can not see it in any other way besides pure entitlement.

If it hasn't been a PA, then do you think that is the sole basis as to why your son and DIL don't think you should D?
I wonder what they would expect you to do instead...grin and bear it? Allow her to just continue to talk to him for hours a day and late into the nights, running up excessive phone charges? Not only that, but you both traveled all the way across the country to meet with OM in person...and she spent time alone with him. She had been justifying this friendship because she was wanting to possibly convert him to Christianity...save him - a Muslim. Do you think your son could possibly buy this explanation and see it as a noble pursuit? He has to be smarter than that.

I am guessing Foreverhers wanted you to continue to persevere for the same reasons as your son....(no PA?)
What actually defines adultery then? Is it really narrowly defined as PA? For better and worse..this being worse.

I know you haven't wanted it to come to a D. I also think that the outcome could still change even after the D.

Did you ever ask your WW how she would have felt if you had a female friend that you spent as much time talking to on the phone and putting before your relationship with her?

It should be interesting to hear what their reasons are. Maybe it is as simple as their mother doesn't want a D and they don't want you to D...they want you together. You do too but not under the present circumstances. You still love your WW. Will your son's marriage be boundary free?

It certainly hasn't been easy for you to come to this decision. We all know how you have struggled.

In some ways your wife and 2longs wife are similar in their stubborn entitlement.

I'm back.

I decided to work at home this morning after the CASA ceremony, so I've been actually performing real work at home.

I'll try to hit the high points of some items raised here.

As far as "legal options", I could continue in the current state forever. We are legally separated, I am paying all of her living expenses. However, you may all recall that her desire was for OM+OMW to move into our house. Now that I have moved out (and she's filed for separation), there is absolutely no legal recourse to prevent that. He was in school full time, that ended in May and I don't know what he's been doing since then.

There is absolutely no way that #2S/DIL approves of Mom's actions. There is no question about that, and I don't think that demonstrating the seriousness of the situation is of any benefit.

As #1S/DIL and I have discussed this more lately, I have pointed out to them that I have one very firm condition for the contiuation of our marriage - one man, one woman. That has consistently been turned down by WW, and a number of other options offered instead (remember? laundry, spaghetti, red velvet cake, SF, dating, etc....)but, ALWAYS with R with OM still very firmly intact.

At this point, I have convinced myself (maybe as a way of justification? self-preservation?) that continued life with WW is not an option. This may not be much of a theological argument, but you know the old saying "Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me"? I would be very, very weary of ever being able to trust her again after seeing how strongly she is attached to OM#2, and how strongly attached to OM#1 she was. What does that tell me about a future with her? All at the same time her continually pounding my ears with what a mistake it was to marry me, how she should have waiting on other BF to ask her, how her and OM#2 are "soulmates" and meant to be together for the rest of their lives....blah, blah, blah.

On the theological front, I know what the Bible says about divorce and adultery. MUST PA occur for God to view it as adultery? Or, can adultery be committed in the heart and be just as serious? Everybody has a different opinion on this (we know Jimmy Carter's, don't we?).

And....some of her conversation was very flirtatous, some benign. I remember when she told me that if she made love with him, it would be because she loves him, not because she lusts for him. Like that was meant to make me feel better.

Anyway...enough of that for now. Mimi...I appreciate your sensitivity to the feelings of #2S/DIL. I've got to avoid the tendency to try to get them to see my point of view, which I think is impossible unless you've lived where I've lived.

Georgia

FGG,

Well whether your #2SandDIL want to or not they have put themselves in the middle of this. However, that is not a bad thing. From what you have said of your sons and their wives they are very good people, hence you should listen to them carefully.

Perhaps, they can accomplish what you could not...the end of OM#2 in the marriage. I am sure they realize you don't want to break up the family. Your W is probably expressing the same thing. So why not query them as to how they would broker a situation where you felt loved in the marriage and she felt loved and happy in the marriage.

Let them offer you ideas and discuss them. And listen to them. Offer them the classic what if scenario which is OK, I will put my life in your hands, how would you live it for me? How would you make our marriage happy, me happy, your mother happy? How do you propose I accept other men in the marriage, or how do you propose to have mom give up her man?

Let them take you through how they would run your life. Don't be mean, listen with all of your heart for they may have the seed of a good idea even if the ideas don't sound good. LEARN from your children as best you can and make it clear you are willing to learn from them.

I personally think your W has some mental issues, and if the kids could get her to someone she could have this addressed. She sort of has the Obsessive Compulsive sort of traits from what I have heard but only a professional could possible address that.

FGG, use this time as an OPPORTUNITY to LEARN from your chilren and you will not regret it.

God Bless,

JL

Okay, that sounds like a reasonable approach.

Remember that it was SH that coached me that when others (even family) asked what they could do, I was to just tell them to do whatever they felt they should do.

To that response, both boys kind of entered their own version of Plan B with them totally separating themselves from Mom. Remember Christmas without her? (Man, and here we are in mid-July). Anyway, I know their thought was to make her choose, the same as my Plan B goal, whether she wanted her ENTIRE family, or OM. I suppose that plan hasn't worked, as she has (obviously) chosen OM.

Perhaps #2S is now rethinking this position. If he has a new position, I don't know what it is.

Ironically, WW has perhaps permanently severed her R with #1S/DIL by her actions. She has more than once attacked #1DIL to the point that #1S has told me that he doesn't think DIL can ever be in the same room with her again. When they go to visit their GP's, they make sure she is not going to be there at the same time or they reschedule.

I know it hurts #1S a lot to know that Mom has chosen OM over him, I'm not so sure how #2S feels about that.

I've called and left a message asking them to join me tomorrow night. No response as of yet.

BTW - The pastor of #2S's church resigned last Sunday. Huge problems, #2S is caught right in the middle of it, he's now the only paid staff member of the church.

Georgia

GG,

I may stand alone in this belief - but I think you need to sever your marriage as it stands, but.........

Be open and willing should your wife finally meet your requirements that you gave her way back when you started Plan B.

It's her sense of entitlement that has always bothered me; that and I don't think she has had the kind of respect for you that I think is important for anyone in a successful relationship.

To not follow through with your Plan B requirements this late in the game would destroy any chance of future reconcillation.

Nothing keeps both of you from coming together in the future if she acts before it's too late for you emotionally. I can only imagine how difficult this is for your boys and their wives. But the way I see it is you must stay the course.

What does you IC say?

GG,

I'm supposed to be sleeping, but I just had to check your thread.

I don't know if your #2S starting saying that you should not D before or after his pastor resigned. But if it was after, I imagine that he just right now lost a part of his foundation, and doesn't want to lose another part. He may be reacting to the resignation of his pastor - and the awkward position he may be in the church - as much as anything that his mother has said to him.

I like what Mimi said about talking to his heart - but you've got 20+ years of experience of doing just that with your sons and I'm a neophyte parent, so I have no advice. Your description of the narrow path you have in which to approach him seems accurate to me.

Honsestly, GG, I don't think it would be right for you to allow him to influence your decision because it's not in his best interest to be burdened with any responsibility for your choice. At this point, you decide what you are doing. Then explain it to him and listen to him to understand and ease his pain - not to get his approval or agreement.

Humbly,
-AD

Hi, Georgia.

Your wife has forsaken your marriage in order to pursue her own needs, regardless of the origin of those needs, be they illness or lust. Any addict lusts for the chemical of choice, because that chemical provides the feeling of choice.

I understand that there those here that would see you wait on your wife until she finally comes around. The problem is that may never happen, and in my opinion, even with proper medical treatment, she is unlikely to face the destruction she has caused, and she is very likely to repeat the behavior.

Your head and heart, life, love, and hopes for the future are the victims here. Your wife is her own victim, and she is the progenitor of much of your pain.

I want to ask you one question, Georgia. How much more of this can you take before you break?

There has to come a time where you stop listening to the counsel of others, including me, and make your own choices. In my opinion, there is no happy ending to be found in your situation.

You are a man, not a machine, and you have very real limitations. Please don't make the same mistake I have seen many others make. Don't assume that you know where the extreme ends of your limitations are. There is a very real chance that you will break before you reach what you thought were your limits. Unlike popular belief that broken things re-grow stronger than non-broken things, once a person is broken, they are never the same.

Life will be tough enough on you already with what you have already gone through. It is true that your character will be honed, but just like all those aches and pains you find yourself with now - hurting in the places you used to play, the emotional damage will always be with you.

Did you ever have a chance to read CS Lewis? Do you remember how Dr. Ransom finally dealt with temptation in Perelandra? When is enough, enough?

May God bless you with clear direction, Georgia.

On a lighter note, I had fully expected to be in a place business wise to take on the fishing trip we discussed months ago. I find that I am still under the gun with no relief in sight. So, I will have to beg off for a while. Apologies to you, AD and JL.

God bless,
Gimble

Wow, such wise counsel from so many good friends. I thank you all.

I will try to address the main issues here.

I know that WW is hurting at this point, and I wonder if #2S is seeing Mom’s pain and that is what has swayed his opinion. Her words haunt me when we’ve talked, because it hurts me so much to see her pain. But, I know her R with OM is unwavering and firmly in place. There is no doubt she has exhibited absolutely no respect for me. I’ve tried to live as selfless of a life as possible in our marriage, and it wasn’t as a martyr, but rather I got joy from doing things for her.

My IC, who I am still seeing, sees my marriage as completely over and doesn’t think that WW – having gone this far – is likely to change her ways. He says he has never seen such power over another person as OM seems to have over WW. Remember that he had about a 2 hour session with both of us last July the night #1S found out about this, and around Thanksgiving he spent about an hour on the phone with her. My meetings with him now focus on divorce recovery.

On the pastor issue, the church gave him a 2 month leave of absence to reconsider some of his actions. Without going into all the details, his actions were directed at #2S and indicate that he may be on the same drug as WW, very bizarre behavior indeed. However, he elected to resign instead of returning to the church. #2S’s change of heart apparently came during that leave of absence, even though I don’t know if that is just incidental.

He did call back last night, by the way and we are meeting tonight after church. I’m going to take them to dinner somewhere. Something I haven’t reported here. Last week, before I got the notice of the final date, #1S asked me what was taking so long and wanted to know why this thing is dragging on so long. He said he just wants to get it done and move on with life. I suspect that in many ways, my D may almost serve as a D for him as well and may mark the end of his relationship with his Mom.

Gimble – you say some interesting things about the “limitations” thing. That is something that has concerned me when talking with cc, as I know she is putting a time limit on her Plan B.

I remember so vividly that first week in December. The night I went upstairs and opened the door to one of our guest rooms, and there was WW sitting on our wicker settee, chatting away with OM at about 2:00 AM. I closed the door and a few minutes later she came walking down the stairs. I looked at her and said “you are nothing but a cold hearted b**ch”. The very next day, counseling with SH, he asked right out of nowhere is words ever come out of my mouth that I can’t believe I said. I told him about that incident. That was when he said I needed to be out of the house within a week. I had planned to leave Friday, but that Monday afternoon I came home from work and WW was on the phone with #1S, giving him some kind of hard time about DIL. It was while she was on the phone with him that I threw some clothes in a bag, got my toiletries together, and read her my Plan B letter. I walked out as she was yelling angrily for me to come back. – to go to church visitation if you can believe that.

Anyway, lots of words to say that yes indeed I did reach my limitation that week. There is NO WAY that I could have stayed another week. I honestly believe that I was to the point of absolutely breaking.

Even though a recovering people pleaser and CA’er, I can not let #2S sway my opinion. This isn’t something that needs to be decided by committee. I know where I’ve been, I know what I’ve lived with, and I know what I can no longer put up with.

GOOD MORNING, MIMI.....

Oh, on my lighter note. I had forgotten how wonderful pottery is. That was great last night, sitting around clowing around with other folks, making a large clay bowl, and listening to the worlds worst bluegrass music. I don't know where he gets his CD's, but it's so country it starts to grow on you after a while.

Georgia