Oh...another little point of interest (on another lighter note).

Yesterday I sent an e-mail the metro editor of the local paper regarding the former owner of my home. As he was a writer for the paper, I asked for help in finding out more info about him.

Basically, he wrote back with instructions on how to subscribe to their archive service, but he did send a snipped from an editorial in 1972 about his death.

Contained in it is this extra nugget:

"...a longtime friend of Ty Cobb..."

How about that? I'm gong to get one of those big bronze plaques in front of my house before this is over with!!

Georgia

There is no need to explain your decision to break away from the torment to me. I'm sorry if it is construed that I think there is any other option than a break with your WW.

My idea about asking #2S for any other options is to hopefully get him thinking down the same path...and if he has other ideas, you can let him know how you have tried that too. I suspect he will coime tot he same conclusion as you have. He needs to hear the OTHER side of the story now that WW has told HER side. Please consider showing him the phone bills from the past. It is hard to beleive someone would talk with a 'friend' so much...

God is with you.

I know you're not going to beleive this, but I am a potter too. I have been taking classes since college, and about 3 years ago my wonderful, wood-working Dad built a kick wheel for me...

Hi SHMI....

No apologies needed, I actually like your suggestion. I have recently had a similar thought even before your suggestion. I know that #2S uses "role-playing" situations with his youth group to help youth "visualize" how they would, or should, respond if they find themselves in a real world situation. Ex: kids being offered drugs, will they respond differently if they've "practiced" that moment?

Anyway, I've thought about making up cards for #2DIL to read to #2S. Only rule is that #2S MUST PLAY, he doesn't have a choice (I didn't).

I could write some of the nuggets that I've heard on cards, then have #2DIL look directly into the eyes of #2S and read them. Then....repeat them for the next 5 years. And of course, some of them have to read at certain moments, like during intimacy. And, some of them would need to be read to another man while #2S watches.

#2S's role? How does he respond? Does it differ from how I've responded?

Anyway, probably my vivid imagination running away with me.

Georgia

Gimble,

What an enormously powerful statement this is -

"Any addict lusts for the chemical of choice, because that chemical provides the feeling of choice."

Whew!

Wow, GREAT idea, but...you know...if you do it, will probably only get through one card before it becomes too painful. I like the idea of writing these nuggets out anyway...you can hand them to #2S to read later. Or you can keep them for yourself to think of all the options to deal with these situations. No, really, these are things that still bother you and I think it is important to work them out in your own mind...so write them out and think on each 'precious nugget' and come up with your own answer.

Sounds like you've got quite a script that runs through your head. That is something I've read on here often with the guys mostly...the pictures and thoughts that you can't get out of your head. I think it's harder for guys to get over an A than the females...just a thought.

With me it's triggers, little details that remind me of OW and their time together. They used to bombard me over and over throughout the day, and now, I'll get a trigger every few weeks or so... the last one was this weekend. When WH had gone on one of his 'dates' with the OW he had bought a necklace for himself. I found it after recovery started slipped in a book, he grabbed it quickly and explained what it was and where it came from. He left it around the house for the next month when I finally asked him if he would get rid of it...which I think he did. Saturday he was wearing a necklace very similar to that one and I mentioned it, asked if it was the same one, and he said no, it was one his friend gave him who was standing right there...I actually remember when it was given to him. But it still didn't keep those emotions, mistrust, and paranoia from flooding back for a few minutes (half hour?) But thankfully this is happening far less...

Aug 1st will be the 2 year mark of when he moved back in...

SHMI -

Yes, indeed, it often seems like my mind works like a jukebox. The little arm will go over and grab a record over and over and over again and I get to see / hear the same recording that I would like to never have to experience again. (Lobotomy, anyone?).

As for triggers, what I experience is moments that I'm reminded of "the way we were". It is so painful to remember the good times, the fun and intimacy and sharing that we've enjoyed. I suppose if we got back together, and R with OM ended, then maybe I would have trouble with triggers of OM as you do of FOW.


I was thinking the other day of what it will be like when I visit S Florida again and go by the little house we lived in for 5 years. That's the house we moved into 6 months after we were married, #1S was born while we lived there. So many wonderful memories. We felt like we lived in a mansion (1100 Sq Ft), and we were on top of the world. At least that's how I remember it.....

I know....history rewrite and so on....but that doesn't remove the pain.

Georgia

Georgia:

I'm scratching my head here... You didn't really mean this did you? Wasn't it you that encouraged me to visit my M, to heal my R with her???

Psych 101: D between parents doesn't equal D from the children....

Shouldn't you encourage him to maintain his R with his M for his own sake?

I think that you should them figure this out on their own. There is stuff about your R with your W that they don't need to understand and may never understand. Let her remain their M and you remain their D.

I involved my YS too much in my stuff and I feel that it has hurt him emotionally and is making it difficult for him to heal... Your W has done enough on her own to her Ss for you to add more fuel to the fire....


This doesn't sound like you, Georgia.....

All good stuff here. It is just such a curiosity as to what your #2S is thinking. It will be interesting to find out. I, in no way think you should change directions. I agree with JL's assessment that your WW possibly has mental issues. I have a hard time comprehending her choices.

Hi Mimi....

You've misunderstood me, Mimi.

I have tried to gently nudge both S's back to a relationship with their Mom. However, WW seems to keep almost pushing away #1S/DIL. I'm trying to relate what I see happening to #1S as a result of that.

However, I DO NOT encourage the breakdown of the relationship between either S and WW.

After the dust settles, and even as it is settling, I will do everything I can (without being overly controlling) to assure that both S's maintain a R with their Mom.

Georgia

Read what I added to my previous note.

What was that all about?

Okay, before I get too far out in left field.

I like SHMI's suggestion about asking for #2S's comments if he were running my life, etc. That is fairly safe (for him).

Even though I really have had the thought about the role-playing cards, I've previously nixed it. I do not want to fall into the trap of trying to get them to play favorites, or choose sides. I do not want them to see their Mom has the "bad guy" in this whole drama. However, that is really the only to come close to saying "okay, stand in my shoes and make my decisions. Are they different than what I've done?".

But.... at the same time by limiting their access to facts then they are arriving at conclusions without the benefit of all the details that I have at my disposal (to play over and over again).

Hence the fine line I mentioned a few days ago. Okay, I can ask #2S/DIL to give me their thoughts. However, I cannot be at liberty to share with them all REASONS that I am doing what I'm doing because they don't need to know, and in fact shouldn't know.

The best compromise that I can come up with is to listen to them (to their "heart", as you say). Tell them I understand their feelings, that I appreciate their input. However, I WILL tell them there are many things that I cannot share with them that have caused me to arrive at the conclusions that I have.

It is, to me, of paramount importance NOT to ask for their buy-in on this. Let's pretend I shared with them enough info to hear them say..."You're right, Dad. It is time to divorce Mom", and then I do. That would forever be hanging over their heads that they were now a part of that decision. They don't need that.

So, I'd rather listen to their thoughts, their concerns. But they must understand that it is MY decision, and mine alone.

Please edit that quote from your post, Mimi.

Thanks -

Georgia

You said:



GREAT! I agree with this approach.

I'm not sure what you want me to edit. Let me know specifically and I will....

The one where you quote my hypothetical role-play card that starts "That would be a good card....".

I don't want #1S (or #2S) to ever hear that.

Georgia

P.S. During this whole thing, #1S and I have been e-mailing back and forth stuff about the upcoming shuttle launch. We were in the NASA spectator area at the very first launch (Columbia, April 1981). He was 1 1/2 years old. Also, he's a huge baseball fan and I've told him of the Ty Cobb connection. (I jokingly told him I found a case of autographed baseballs in the attic).

I enjoy the R with him so much. We have such a good rapport.

Thanks, Mimi, for editing.

Georgia:

Want to admit this to you...

My reaction to you today comes from a conversation that I had with my YS last night. He has had an awful attitude with me this summer, very negative and complaining about me as a M. It doesn't feel good. His message to me is that I don't love him ENOUGH... It's never ENOUGH, no matter what I do for him. So I told him how it's hard to be "loving and attentive" to him given his attitude.

To the contrary, my OS is as "sweet as pie", calls me often just to chat, asking me how I am doing. "Are you alright, Mommy?", etc. I don't do half as much for him. I'm totally opposed to showing preference to my children. It is just so much easier to be with my OS. You know the whole love bank analogy.

The same is true for H and sons. H spends a lot of time now with OS. YS is negative with him and resists his efforts to bond...

So, YS, insightfully, told me last night that he feels like it is easier for his brother because brother was not at home and does not KNOW ALL THE DETAILS OF WHAT D did... YS does and lived it with me...

I took your counsel Georgia and talked to him at length about forgiveness, how his F has changed, etc. Sounded like he was listening.. He came home a few hours later acting like a "you know what" (the word I'm not supposed to use) again. I will not give up on him BUT to be honest I'll be glad when he goes back to school....

SO THERE.....

I think it is really important for our kids to learn to forgive. Otherwise, they may embrace their corruptor and become what they hate...even though they can't imagine making those choices. The evil one can find ways to tempt.

Before I met my H, his father died in a car accident with his mistress/affair partner. My H had to go with his mom to identify his body. He was really angry with his Dad for doing 'that' to his mom...the A...the hurt and humiliation etc. Yet, he went on to do the same thing (A's) to his W (me) and kids...well not die in a car accident...but I recall having some sick fantasies during that time. He really identified with his Dad during his A.

Forgiveness does more for the forgivers soul than the person they are forgiving. It is an important step in healing and growth.

TRIX:

I so agree with you.

The FORGIVENESS discussion with my YS will be ongoing and continuous. He has not indicated YET that he is listening...

With time and patience and my example.....

Thanks Trix, that got me thinking...

It is not up to us to 'save' our children from all bad feelings. We have no power over how our children feel about anything. And we can't protect them from all the bad things that happen. Mimi, the 'tude your YS has and the feelings he has you have no control over and it is NOT YOUR FAULT.

I have always been an advocate of being honest with kids, and telling them and letting them in on as much as they want to know. Kids are betrayed by an A too and often want to know what is going on...can you imagine being a BS and not having your questions answered or being kept in the dark to 'save you'? Yes, people can take it too far and use their kids as a sounding board and a vent, especially after D.

A few days after D-day, after all heck was breaking out and Dad was sleeping on the couch I explained to my DS(9) and DD(7) separately and using appropriate words that Mom and Dad were arguing right now because there was some big stuff going on. Mom had just found out Dad went on a date with another girl. My DS's reaction was, "Ooh, sounds like a D." To which I replied, "Maybe, but Dad and I are still talking and working on things." My DD didn't say anything. They didn't ask too many questions after that. Sometimes they would say something to Dad or I, like, "Dad, are you going to see your GF?" (in all innocence, without sarcasm, which tells you how far an A reaches), or "Will we have to move?"

They were able to watch, and understood when Dad and I would say, "Please leave us alone right now, we have to talk." It also helped when Dad moved out for 2 months and during Plan B when we vacationed w/o Dad. They knew why. Many folks would disagree with the way I handled things, but the kids seem to be pretty well-adjusted, not clingy, whiny, rebellious. DS is 11 now and DD is 8, and we are well into recovery.

A's and D affect kids as well as S's. The family is betrayed. Perhaps with an older child you can ask them to lead the discussion. I like to stop my children every once and awhile and ask..."Ask me a question...about anything..." You'd be surprised how thoughtful their questions are...and I feel they deserve just as thoughtful an answer...but the way they interpret the answer and the situation is ENTIRELY up to them, and NOT our fault for bearing the truth.

Wow... seems like we’re going to swap hats today as counselor / counselee. First, I would have a lot of trouble with YS son complaining about you as a Mom. I don’t know your son, but if I heard this from my either of my sons’ I THINK I might say: “Being a Father is a difficult role to fill. Often there is no right or wrong way, and I’ve been asked to fill that role 2X in my life. I know I don’t do it perfectly, but I do the best I can. I hope that you can learn from my mistakes and remember them when the time comes for you to accept the role as Father”.

Now...getting deeply personal. Back in the school / college years, #2S was as sweet as pie and #1S had a strong, strong will. EVERYONE loves #2S, he was the kid that had the throng of girls always following him around, etc. #1S was serious, studious, reflective. However, he was a near straight A student, #2S struggled. His teachers would invariable seem perplexed that he was the brother of #1S (“he is so.... different”).

Mimi....I stand by my counsel (it’s worth every penny you paid for it!!). You have planted the seed, you have done your part. He can whine about Dad if he wants, but a pity party of one gets pretty boring pretty quickly.

The counsel I take from you here is that NEITHER son really needs to know more of the details than they already know about Mom. Period. Perhaps the price I pay for that is that one / both may disagree with my actions, but that is a small price to pay if either can restore their R with their Mom some day.

It’s like the judge said yesterday when he was giving us the CASA swearing in pep talk. He said “I may not always take your advice, but don’t get your feelings hurt. I may be privy to information that you aren’t”. That is a good statement to say to the boys, IMO.

Now a word of encouragement to you. When #1S would come home from college, I couldn’t WAIT for him to go back. He no longer fit in as a “kid” in our home (square peg, round hole). It wasn’t that I didn’t love him, but he didn’t belong at home with us any longer. And now look at us....we’re as close ( I think) as a F and S can be. But...now the tables are turned. The R with #2S is strained. I can only say that “this too shall pass”, and do my best.

Don’t feel bad. I tried to always remember that my first responsibility was to my W, my second to my kids.

Georgia

Still:

Thanks for helping me see that it is not ALL MY FAULT. I agree that he now needs to take PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY for his FEELINGS AND ACTIONS.

GEORGIA:

Your post to back to me is PERFECT/FLAWLESS...JUST WHAT I REALLY NEEDED TO HEAR....

You are helping me so much....

I love your PLAN for YOUR SONS.....